Life, living itself...

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Garsius Tyla
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Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:28 am

...doing that without any effort, without a need to choose. All human beings is just a part of that great show. And you know what spoils all fun?? That tiny tiny tiny nothing - believing that "I" exist.

Come and we together make close look at that "I".

There is no place for intellectual work, only looking, realising, being...

Ready to make a honest LOOK?

Step in. Introduce yourself. Let's make it.

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Garsius Tyla
Posts: 165
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:50 am

Anyone here want to see truth? Don't be so shy. I cannot bite :)
Step in.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:25 pm

Hello,

I am curious and skeptical about this method, and i wasn`t sure what you call liberation. But when you said "there is no place for intellectual work, only looking, realising, being" that convinced me to give it a try. My background is a bit of vipassana started 2-3 months ago and a lot of reading about ways towards liberation in the previous years.

*straps helmet on* Ready!

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Garsius Tyla
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Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:50 pm

Hi Masauwu, welcome here.

What is your background at the moment. And what do you expect from this talk? Introduce yourself please.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:14 pm

Hi Garsius Tyla,

I tried to condense my background in the previous post, anything specific you want me to add? My current expectation would be complete liberation from the illusion of self, but it`s negociable if that seems to grand. :)

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:23 pm

Okey mate. Can I ask you to be honest as much as it is possible in your searching? Don't use things you have read before, just naked looking.
By background I asked you to point where at your searching you ARE at moment.

What is SELF for you? What it means?

Inspect yourself. If idea comes to your mind about what self is, just observe it and keep looking.

Don't rush.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:53 pm

Can I ask you to be honest as much as it is possible in your searching? Don't use things you have read before, just naked looking.
Yes i am aware of this issue, i will do my best to look directly and not just answer with intellectual concepts.
By background I asked you to point where at your searching you ARE at moment.
My main exercise (started around a week ago) is to maintain mindfulness of the body and mind as much as possible in everyday life, since waking up until sleep. Recently started to see how the mind works, how sense objects can trigger automatic responses from the mind in form of thoughts, feelings and other things, and those response can in turn become themselves triggers and so on - and all this happening in splits of a second; made me call it the pinball machine. All this and the occasional samatha meditation in the hope that it will enable me to see past this carnival of thoughts and identification.
What is SELF for you? What it means? Inspect yourself. If idea comes to your mind about what self is, just observe it and keep looking.
This is what is bugging me, looking but not seeing, it`s like gazing into darkness. If i inspect my mind about the self, answers seem to revolve around habit + identification with thoughts/mind. But this feels like deception somehow, a thought answered with another thought. When i try to look beyond mind and thought, i get nothing, it`s like a silence.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:30 pm

Recently started to see how the mind works, how sense objects can trigger automatic responses from the mind in form of thoughts, feelings and other things, and those response can in turn become themselves triggers and so on - and all this happening in splits of a second; made me call it the pinball machine.
Amazing efforts. So you can easy be aware of those parts, which seems make a complex of that self.

Feelings, thoughts, emotions. What else is there?
This is what is bugging me, looking but not seeing, it`s like gazing into darkness
So who is gazing, who is that "me" who does that?
If i inspect my mind about the self, answers seem to revolve around habit + identification with thoughts/mind


Very goood. I mean really. Now, can you look how that identification with thought happens. Just real deep look. And then again look. And then again... If thought comes as an answer, LOOK at it also.
But this feels like deception somehow, a thought answered with another thought
Yeah, that not only feels wrong, it is wrong. But thoughts just happen, don't be angry at them. Let them be as FORM, not as CONTENT. I mean, observe them as form.
When i try to look beyond mind and thought, i get nothing, it`s like a silence
Look. Seems like there always must be this way: perciever -> percieving -> percieved. Can "silence" be a perciever here, or can it be "nothing"? Just look.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:05 pm

Feelings, thoughts, emotions. What else is there?
Now, can you look how that identification with thought happens.
But thoughts just happen, don't be angry at them. Let them be as FORM, not as CONTENT. I mean, observe them as form.
Memories, states of mind, response mechanisms to past triggers... But these are in the mind, and when i see them i don`t identify with them (since i started mindfulness practice). Before that practice i would say i was a sleepwalking machine lost in thought. Now i can see them, but somehow it`s not enough, something is missing from the picture, probably one of these mind constructs that i`m not yet seeing like i see the others. There is this feeling that "I"`ve been living in my head all my life and i can`t shake it off.
So who is gazing, who is that "me" who does that?
Look. Seems like there always must be this way: perciever -> percieving -> percieved. Can "silence" be a perciever here, or can it be "nothing"? Just look.
Silence witnessing itself is one way of putting it, but somehow it sounds fake. Maybe i don`t see because i don`t know how to look? I`ll keep trying...

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:39 pm

Memories, states of mind, response mechanisms to past triggers..
true, there is also emotions, feelings, sense of self and awareness of that all. Right? And where is "I" among that all?
There is this feeling that "I"`ve been living in my head all my life and i can`t shake it off.
Yes, feeling of "I" is. But it's just feeling. As you mentioned - it can be observable. So that feeling is not you, right? Look at that feeling. There is a feeling, there is a looking, there is effort to look. Where is that "I", that real doer, who does that all?
Silence witnessing itself is one way of putting it, but somehow it sounds fake
Of course it's fake, because it's another idea, another thought. Thing is: can you find that "I", who perceive that idea? Just look inside, where all that happens.

But - silence and nothingness is there. Maybe because there is no you? No you at all?

Just look around, inside, and be aware how all happens by itself. Thoughts come and go, feelings come and go. Body moves, heart is beating, sense of being is, thoughts with label "I" arise, awareness of all that, is.

Don't rush. Answer only after honest looking. We will do that. Just stay in line.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:21 am

There seems to be an "I" sometimes, but just a thought as any other. When i try to look for it specifically, it`s really nothing there. However it seems that a lifetime of conditioning has embedded the assumption that there is an "I" or "me" even they are not to be found.

Many thoughts and other mind or body events can be seen coming and going on their on, without any relation to an "I", but strong and old ones usually dealing with fear or craving are so deeply ingrained that they seem to invoke an "I" out of nowhere. Which puzzles me because fear and craving would be gone in the absence of a "me".

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:30 am

There seems to be an "I" sometimes, but just a thought as any other. When i try to look for it specifically, it`s really nothing there.
Yes. Nothing here. Just thoughts, moods, sense of "I" and other things with no real "I" in it. All just happens by itself, from that "nothing", right? Observe that more closely.

Can you make any real choice in your life? Or all just happening by itself? Look around and inside.

Can you chose your next thought? Or feeling.. fear for example?
Many thoughts and other mind or body events can be seen coming and going on their on, without any relation to an "I"
Yes, but even with those, you can be aware of that tiny sense of self, right? There is sense of self, but is it that actual "I" somewhere?
Which puzzles me because fear and craving would be gone in the absence of a "me".
That is another idea. Another idea you got from somewhere. Lets cut that idea to pieces:

puzzles me - feeling, which freely happen
fear and craving - feeling, which freely happen

All just happens. Is there any actual doer in that? Look deeply. You cannot find any. There is no you. No at all.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:26 am

Nothing here. Just thoughts, moods, sense of "I" and other things with no real "I" in it. All just happens by itself, from that "nothing", right? Observe that more closely.
Can you make any real choice in your life? Or all just happening by itself? Look around and inside.
Can you chose your next thought? Or feeling.. fear for example?
Yes, a series of mind and body happenings. Choices are being made, but there might as well be another mind construct that acts as decision maker. I cannot anticipate thoughts or other events usually.
All just happens. Is there any actual doer in that? Look deeply. You cannot find any. There is no you. No at all.
Since i can`t find this "I" by looking, i can accept that maybe there isn`t one. But how is this not just a change of frame of reference, a switch from one cocktail of manifestations with an "I" to the same cocktail without an "I". No liberation in just acceptance. Somehow i fail at seeing.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:23 pm

Choices are being made
Can you take one ordinary "choice" in your daily life and examine it little more closely? For example, you are in the shop and choosing which dish washer liquid to buy. What influence "your choice", which one you gonna take with you?
but there might as well be another mind construct that acts as decision maker
"might be" - do you see any mind construct, or just number of thoughts. And then - bam - choice is maded. Where is that "choice maker"?
Since i can`t find this "I" by looking, i can accept that maybe there isn`t one
NO WAY. No acceptance. Acceptance = belief. That would be major fail. Only investigation and realising. Just looking.
Somehow i fail at seeing.
It is not about "seeing", it about , lets say, "direct knowing".

Observe your thoughts. Investigate, how thought "I" get attached with every thought that happens?

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:57 pm

Can you take one ordinary "choice" in your daily life and examine it little more closely? For example, you are in the shop and choosing which dish washer liquid to buy. What influence "your choice", which one you gonna take with you?
"might be" - do you see any mind construct, or just number of thoughts. And then - bam - choice is maded. Where is that "choice maker"?
There is no choice maker, i only assumed there`s a category of thoughts that tend to that task. The choice is made based on criteria based on past experience or estimation, thoughts based on thoughts, being put in motion to perform a task.
It is not about "seeing", it about , lets say, "direct knowing".
Observe your thoughts. Investigate, how thought "I" get attached with every thought that happens?
It`s like this: until a few weeks ago before starting the daily mindfulness practice, there was the automatic "I" attached to everything: I`m doing this, I`m thinking that... After starting with the mindfulness practice there is no more "I" attached to every single thought or action, i see them as objects happening; that is, while i remain mindful, which i`m far from being able to do continously yet. However, even if i look and don`t see an "I" when they happen, in the big picture they still feel like they are "mine", ocurring "in my head".

To give an example, i am trying hard to look and i don`t see, and you might tell me look, look again, deeper, look. A few weeks ago after a few posts i would have left this forum in anger and dismiss the whole method. Now (since the mindfulness practice), i see anger rising as an object, and the fact that there is a space between it and myself allows me to not be controlled by it, and it fades away. But it still feels as my space in which it`s appearing. Who is this "local" me that is "responsible" with this body and this mind? I cannot answer. Who am i... At this moment I`m a thought having a dialogue on a forum. For a few seconds, the thoughts called Frustration and Anger took a sit near this thought having the dialogue, but i saw them and they went away. I cannot see the one that is having this dialogue, probably that`s why it sticks.


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