Artzo need guide

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artzo
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Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:59 am

Hello

I would like to start this process and with help from a guide see what is truth.

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:45 pm

I have not been into any practice for longer time, as they often promise much but I have never seen any results in my own life.

Have not had any deep spiritual or mystical experiences during my life.
Have become pretty sceptical and negetive as nothing seems to work.
Life feels pretty meaningless.
And I seem only to get more deppressed and angry and afraid.

I am tired of being afraid and tired of all the stories in the head.

It feels like my whole life is a lie and I am slave under fear.
And life is just a long struggle with very little joy.

I would not like to live like that.

I would like someones help to break free from this concept of I.

I have read Jed McKenna triology which I find very intresting but dont know how to do what he suggest "spiritual autolysis"

Feel this process is somewhat similar but with help from a guide. Look at what is until only truth remains or until we see there is no I.

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Ilona
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:17 am

Hi artso.

Thank you for email. Yes, I see that second post did decrease the chance for a guide responding quickly as it looks that someone is talking to you already. Guides are usually looking for posts with zero responses.
So since you emailed me asking for help, I'm gladly answering your request and will be your guide.

All I need from you is be completely honest and answer some questions from your own experience, rather then from what you saw, heard or believe. Also, it would be best if you stop reading books, watch videos and all that, except this forum and gateless gatecrashers book, which is great accompaniment to this process.

The process is entirely yours. You alone have to answer your own questions. All I can do is help you with focusing and pointing where to look.

So here is my first question to you.

What do you expect from this conversation?
What is it that you are searching for?
And how will you know that you found it?


Please answer in full, with whole honesty.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:06 am

Hello Ilona

Thank you for clarifying answer.
I would gladly have you as my guide.

I will answer your questions later today when I have access to my computer.

Thankful regards

Art

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:29 pm

What do you expect from this conversation?
I expect as you gone through the gateless gate and been guiding others will be able to point where I should look, and if I get stuck be able to point again where to look so I in my own experience can see there is no seperate self and go through the gateless gate.
What is it that you are searching for?
Firstly I thought I was searching for the famous enlightenment, where everytying should be easy, glorious, supreme and magical 24/7. So this was what I was searching for a long time, that one thing should all of a sudden liberate me from suffering forever.
Making everything easy.
Some childish want of being adored as a perfect man, accepted loved as the one that pured himself from sin, shame, karma and so on.
Now I see that is just a fantasy, a childish dream to be superman in a magic universe where I had all the power to controll life.
As comming in contact with liberation unleashed and then reading Jed MCkennas books I saw pretty soon that my thoughts about enlightenment was just fantasies.

Now I am just hoping this will lead to the end of search, the futile attempts to get somewhere.
I want to stop struggling against life and just flow with what is happening.
In a brutal way stop my life as this identity I hold to be true, as the problem seems to sprung from this belief in and seperate I.

And hopefully this will make life more alive, not so constricted and narrowed down by instant judgeing of what I should do or not do.
And how will you know that you found it?
When there is no urge to search for more, new, better feeling, experiences, teaching, techniques.
When I can let everything just flow, not interrupting life with boxing it into my believed lifebox.
When I know without doubt that I is just a story not some real seperate entity. (Not just intellectual, but really seeing that it is so)

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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:43 pm

Great.
Looks like you are ripe and ready. Lets see what comes up here:
let this thought in, play with it, and write what sensations, feelings, thoughts arise in response.


There is no separate self, I at all in reality, none as in zero. No manager, controller, watcher, observer, doer or thinker. All is happening by itself without an entity behind it pulling strings.
There is life happening, flowing freely, happening to no one.

Sit with this for a bit, let it be ok for a minute and look for yourself. Is that true?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:42 pm

Resistance a part of mind screams bullshit don't listen. Another part feels oh nice no need for any more struggling.
Lot of thoughts like can it be like this, sounds true but I don't see it clearly.

There is strong thoughts that there must be controll, someone something must controll and make things happen.

Doubt that i will ever be able to see this. A bit of frusration

Fear and a feelings of relief comes in waves. Struggle against no struggle.

I can see nature flow, no fighting what is.
Nature just is.
But when it comes to my own life there is a feeling that someone must control everything.

There seems like an ever ongoing war between thoughts, feelings.

I can at a plane intellectually see that sure this can be true,but have no clue howvto really see this as truth, not as now just a nice concept.

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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:22 pm

Thank you for honest answer.
You say:
There is strong thoughts that there must be controll, someone something must controll and make things happen.,
there must be, but is there? What is that makes grass grow, or clouds rain, or birds sing, is human being outside of this life flow? Being is a verb, life is expressing as this. Does life need a general manager? Look in nature, spend some time watching how everything moves together, everything affecting everything else. Is there a doer of this behind what is happening? Is there a doer of life? Is there a separate self aka I, that is controlling this body and what happens in life?

Take your time to investigate and write what feels true.


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:08 pm

There is nothing that absolutely says that there must be a controller, it can be spontanous flow without controller.
More likely there be more spontanous without a controller.
When a controller is set in there is stagnation, no real flow, very little creativity and joy.
Life and universe with a controller or many controllers becomes pretty boring.

So this belief in self is stagnation of life, it is taking life into a box and wondering why it does not express itself widely and spontenously.
So our beliefs frames us, takes us away from life itself.

It is a bit absurd thinking that an I is trying to see there is no I. If that I would see there is no I it would be suicide to that I, as it can't exist if it sees that he does not exist. And it would not even be possible for an I to see that it is not, in that case there could be no I from the beginning, it was all just pretend, a false assumption.

So either there is an I, and in that case I would be able to find an I when looking.
And the other alternative is that there is no I and just seeing happening.

Sorry maybe I am just babbling and not makin any sense.
So many thoughts that pops up during this. Frightening and very existing at the same time.

if life has no controller it is all pretty simple, just life expressing itself in many variations. if there is a controller/god/awareness/superintelligence behind wind, gras growing, tree bending, leaf falling, breathing, animals, thoughts, feelings, salty waves on the sea that being should be so complex that that controller would have a processing capacity so enourmous it would probably be infinite.
Don't know if it is possible to know anyway how it is or if it matters.

What can be explored is the fact if Artzo exist as a seperate being or not. So guess it is there focus should be put :)

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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:29 am

Hi artzo,

Thanks for answer. I see a lot of thinking, what I'm asking you to do is to LOOK. There is a difference. Thinking involves what if's and maybes, if this then that, this is all just mind talking.

Looking is simple, you look at what is here now and describe it as you see it. What do you see?
Is there a controller of life? Can you see one right now? Can you touch, hear, sense, taste or smell this controller?
How about artzo, can you see him in the room? Is it artzo reading these words or reading is simply happening?
How about a unicorn? Is there a unicorn sitting in the corner of the room?

Yes it is all very very simple. If it looks complicated, it's thinking, not looking. So look around and describe what is here. Is there a I that is looking?

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:04 am

Hello Ilona

Yes that was embarassingly much thinking, thanks for pointing that out.

Looking is simple, you look at what is here now and describe it as you see it. What do you see?
[/qoute]

Fingres clicking on letters. Walls in room, objects. Thoughts arising, bodily sensations.
Is there a controller of life? Can you see one right now? Can you touch, hear, sense, taste or smell this controller?
There is thought about controller. I can't see an controller, thought says it is.
Fingers can touch and sense body, ears hear words from mouth. Mouth take a bite and taste skin.



How about a unicorn? Is there a unicorn sitting in the corner of the room?
No unicorn in room.
How about artzo, can you see him in the room? Is it artzo reading these words or reading is simply happening?
I can't see him, there are thoughts about him existing having this body sitting in chair writing these words.

Yes it is all very very simple. If it looks complicated, it's thinking, not looking. So look around and describe what is here. Is there a I that is looking?
There is hearing, feelings, thoughts, bodily sensations.
There is seeing, but can't point to an i seeing.
There are thoughts saying I see, but thought or no thought about I see, there is still seeing.
Thought or no thought about hearing there is hearing.

There are sensations here and then thoghts about what it all is.
Thought labels experience.

There is still identification with I as an entity with a body and mind. And that mind is creator of thoughts and controller of things. And what has happened to this body mind is my history. Creating an image of who I am.

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:07 am

Forgot preview before sending message

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Ilona
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:10 am

That's more like it :)
Ok, so lets look at thoughts.
Where do thoughts come from?
Are you in control of them?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can you stop it in the middle?
Do you know what the next thought will be?
Is I a different thought from thought table?
Can a thought think?

Examine this closely. Just wait for thoughts to come and see what you notice.

Ps, you may check this post how to use quotes: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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artzo
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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby artzo » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:09 pm

Where do thoughts come from?
Thoughts just appear, can't find it comming from somewhere.
They are just suddenly there and then dissapearing again.
Are you in control of them?
Here is a bit of conflict. I would say most often don't.
But sometimes it feels like there is a thinker managing and choosing what focus thoughts appearing should have.
But there is no control in how long or often a specific thought should appear, mind looses focus and other thoughts appear.
Can you stop a thought from coming?
No when it appears it is already to late, there is no stopping it.
I could try but it is impossible to stop thoughts from eventually comming.
Can you stop it in the middle?
A continual thoughtsteam of several words could be stopped, like having an speculation about the weather and then changing to think about cars instead.
Do you know what the next thought will be?
No there is only knowing of the thought after it has appeared
Is I a different thought from thought table?
There is no different between I and table it is both just words that are a symbol pointing to something.
They are just used a bit different.
There is often no conflict with thought of table, no confusing thoughts about what a table is or if it exists.
We can clearly see the table in the room if we look at it.
I has to be attached to more descpription to have any worth. Otherwise it just stands alone and is just a word pointing to nothing.

Can a thought think?
A thought can not think, a thought is just a word or mental picture, it has no own skills to produce other thoughts or anything but just be a thought.

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Re: Artzo need guide

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:52 pm

Very nice.

Ok, so is it your job to think or thoughts appear by themselves? Just like when eyes are open there is a view in front. It's not that we can switch this view on and of, we can close eyes, but the view is still there. Thinking is another sense. And mind is a bit like a labelling machine, where focus goes, labelling/story follows.

Look around the room and watch how it's happening- focus on something and see how story appears.

A thought- 'if feels as there is a thinker' is just another thought. Is there a thinker? Look behind thinking? Are you doing it?


Write what you see
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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