Jack welcomes guidance

[notajack]

Greetings,
My name is Jack and for the last 25 years I've delved in meditation, metaphysics, studied many teachings and been led by my curiosity to continue on a quest for deeper understanding culminating in the last four years with A Course in Miracles. When I stumbled upon your website and studied it along with the awakening accounts in the Gateless Gatecrashers book, I knew I was being given a beautiful gift. I appreciate and look forward to your guidance to trigger my awakening.

[Life]

Hi Jack, would like to guide you, welcome here :)

Just to remind you of the rules:

1. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
2. Responses require your utmost honesty
3. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

That's all :) Please keep them in mind before responding! Ready?

[Life]

Greetings,
My name is Jack and for the last 25 years I've delved in meditation, metaphysics, studied many teachings and been led by my curiosity to continue on a quest for deeper understanding culminating in the last four years with A Course in Miracles. When I stumbled upon your website and studied it along with the awakening accounts in the Gateless Gatecrashers book, I knew I was being given a beautiful gift. I appreciate and look forward to your guidance to trigger my awakening.

Thanks for sharing where your at. My name is Machiel, 34, Dutch or so I was told ;)

Alright, can you during the course of this thread let go of the metaphysics, teachings and even aCiM? they have had their function, here focus only on direct experience/senses/emotions.

What are the expectations of this conversation? What will change?

Waiting for your reply :)
Machiel

[notajack]

Hello Machiel,
Thank you for your assistance. I will make every effort to keep my answers focused on your questions with total honesty. If by chance I get off tangent please feel free to snap me back.

My expectation is simply to experience more peace from seeing what is as is without the constant chatter and expectations created from the illusion of a self. I expect once the awakening happens, life will unfold in ways I can't imagine or expect.

I'm ready.

[Life]

Alright Jack, think you missed this question:can you during the course of this thread let go of the metaphysics, teachings and even aCiM? they have had their function, here focus only on direct experience/senses/emotions.

Hello Machiel,
Thank you for your assistance. I will make every effort to keep my answers focused on your questions with total honesty. If by chance I get off tangent please feel free to snap me back.

Ok very good, I will :)

My expectation is simply to experience more peace from seeing what is as is without the constant chatter and expectations created from the illusion of a self. I expect once the awakening happens, life will unfold in ways I can't imagine or expect.

I'm ready.

First question is what will be awakened?

Do you now know how life will unfold?

Peace or chatter will be, question is if there is a you experiencing peace or chatter or is there just peace or chatter arising and passing without a you. Really take a close look, is it true? What comes up?

[notajack]

First question is what will be awakened?

I have a sense of me I feel will be awakened.

Do you now know how life will unfold?

No. I just feel there can be a different way of experiencing it than I do now.

Peace or chatter will be, question is if there is a you experiencing peace or chatter or is there just peace or chatter arising and passing without a you. Really take a close look, is it true? What comes up?

Right now I feel there is a me experiencing the chatter and static of myself getting in the way but I also feel like that peace and chatter are there with or without me experiencing them. Like there is a stream of thought or experience that flows by me and my thoughts come from this large stream of collective thought.

[Life]

I have a sense of me I feel will be awakened.

An awakened sense of me? How does that work?? Can you see that a sense of me does not mean there really is one? Like a monster under the bed or a wasp turning out to be a hoverfly, the monster seemed very real so did the wasp but were they ever really there?

Peace or chatter will be, question is if there is a you experiencing peace or chatter or is there just peace or chatter arising and passing without a you. Really take a close look, is it true? What comes up?

Right now I feel there is a me experiencing the chatter and static of myself getting in the way but I also feel like that peace and chatter are there with or without me experiencing them. Like there is a stream of thought or experience that flows by me and my thoughts come from this large stream of collective thought.

How could thought produce thought? Thats like water producing more water or money producing more money ;) The only way to go is to take a very focussed look yourself, when there is chattering of mr commentator look behind the thoughts, is anything there? Are the thoughts you or yours?

[notajack]

An awakened sense of me? How does that work?? Can you see that a sense of me does not mean there really is one?

I can see where the wording a sense of me does not really mean there is a me, but I feel I am separate from a bigger part a wholeness that is out there. I feel like I'm swimming in that wholeness but am feeling like a defined part of it not all of it. There is me a defined part of a whole.

The only way to go is to take a very focussed look yourself, when there is chattering of mr commentator look behind the thoughts, is anything there? Are the thoughts you or yours?

The thoughts just seem to come into my head. Like right now when I'm thinking thought isn't producing thought I'm waiting for thought to come to me. When I look behind the thought I don't see anything. I just see thought coming to me from a void. The thoughts aren't me. I don't feel like they are my thoughts. I feel like they come to me and pass through me.

[Life]

An awakened sense of me? How does that work?? Can you see that a sense of me does not mean there really is one?

I can see where the wording a sense of me does not really mean there is a me, but I feel I am separate from a bigger part a wholeness that is out there. I feel like I'm swimming in that wholeness but am feeling like a defined part of it not all of it. There is me a defined part of a whole.

What defines this me? Where is the border between me and a whole?

The only way to go is to take a very focussed look yourself, when there is chattering of mr commentator look behind the thoughts, is anything there? Are the thoughts you or yours?

The thoughts just seem to come into my head. Like right now when I'm thinking thought isn't producing thought I'm waiting for thought to come to me. When I look behind the thought I don't see anything. I just see thought coming to me from a void. The thoughts aren't me. I don't feel like they are my thoughts. I feel like they come to me and pass through me.

Thoughts indeed seem to come from me, but what is me?

Look at a table, look at the components, imagine the table taken apart, where is the table? Is there really such a thing? Could this be the same for Jack/me? If arms and legs are gone is there less of you/Jack?

Take your time and take care
M/Life :)

[notajack]

What defines this me? Where is the border between me and a whole?

My physical body to the edge of my skin is what feels like my border and past experiences (the mental pictures) associated with my body give me a picture of me/Jack.

Look at a table, look at the components, imagine the table taken apart, where is the table? Is there really such a thing? Could this be the same for Jack/me? If arms and legs are gone is there less of you/Jack?

If i'm deconstructed so to speak and my form changes and parts are taken away then how solid was me/Jack to begin with? Part of me says there would be less of me but part of me wants to see it as not existing because the only thing that makes sense is that only my mental picture changes, thats all I/me/Jack is, a mental picture. If I look at it from a mental picture whether it's a table or me/Jack neither seem like they could be real if one minute I can see it as a whole form and the next minute change it into parts and see the space that whole form occupied as changed. Where there were parts taken away only empty space remains. My mind is questioning if I can take my arms and parts of me away and there is less of me, then was there ever a me? Part of me wants to conclude that these changing mental image are not real or tangible, they are just images coming from thought. When I feel or touch the keyboard as I type this, the bodily sensations though seem to keep the reality of a form not an image in my mind and again makes the body which I associate as me/Jack as real. There is a part of me that says the table changing form or my body which I associate with me/Jack is just an image but I can't resolve to that when I can still feel the table or experience the sense of touch sight or hearing through my body.

[Life]

What defines this me? Where is the border between me and a whole?

My physical body to the edge of my skin is what feels like my border and past experiences (the mental pictures) associated with my body give me a picture of me/Jack.

Are you this picture?

If i'm deconstructed so to speak and my form changes and parts are taken away then how solid was me/Jack to begin with? Part of me says there would be less of me but part of me wants to see it as not existing because the only thing that makes sense is that only my mental picture changes, thats all I/me/Jack is, a mental picture. If I look at it from a mental picture whether it's a table or me/Jack neither seem like they could be real if one minute I can see it as a whole form and the next minute change it into parts and see the space that whole form occupied as changed. Where there were parts taken away only empty space remains. My mind is questioning if I can take my arms and parts of me away and there is less of me, then was there ever a me? Part of me wants to conclude that these changing mental image are not real or tangible, they are just images coming from thought. When I feel or touch the keyboard as I type this, the bodily sensations though seem to keep the reality of a form not an image in my mind and again makes the body which I associate as me/Jack as real. There is a part of me that says the table changing form or my body which I associate with me/Jack is just an image but I can't resolve to that when I can still feel the table or experience the sense of touch sight or hearing through my body.

Feeling, touch, sight, hearing, heartbeat, lungs taking oxygen are you doing this or do they just happen if you like it or not? Do they make up you? Is a you necesarry to make this happen? Do you type or does typing happen? Thoughts what to write come up, fingers type, is there a typer anywhere?

Are there more parts to you? Are there more than one Jacks? If there is such a thing shouldnt there be only one all the time?

[notajack]

My physical body to the edge of my skin is what feels like my border and past experiences (the mental pictures) associated with my body give me a picture of me/Jack.

Are you this picture?

I struggle with the thought of being this picture if there is a me that's actually standing back seeing the picture. I don't feel like I can be the picture if I am the creator of the picture. When you say, are you this picture I have a different perception of the situation. I see myself as the projector or the creator of the picture rather then the object or the picture itself. I'm struggling with 'am I this picture' and I'd have to say no I am not this picture because then I sense myself as just an image projected from myself. But there is something keeping me from buying into it being that simple because I still feel there is a me. Then I ask myself am I this body that is sitting here typing and I feel a very real sense of yes there is me this body sitting here. So I feel it's really just the way you phrased the question " are you this picture" that changes the way I perceive me i.e. just the picture created from a projection.

If i'm deconstructed so to speak and my form changes and parts are taken away then how solid was me/Jack to begin with? Part of me says there would be less of me but part of me wants to see it as not existing because the only thing that makes sense is that only my mental picture changes, thats all I/me/Jack is, a mental picture. If I look at it from a mental picture whether it's a table or me/Jack neither seem like they could be real if one minute I can see it as a whole form and the next minute change it into parts and see the space that whole form occupied as changed. Where there were parts taken away only empty space remains. My mind is questioning if I can take my arms and parts of me away and there is less of me, then was there ever a me? Part of me wants to conclude that these changing mental image are not real or tangible, they are just images coming from thought. When I feel or touch the keyboard as I type this, the bodily sensations though seem to keep the reality of a form not an image in my mind and again makes the body which I associate as me/Jack as real. There is a part of me that says the table changing form or my body which I associate with me/Jack is just an image but I can't resolve to that when I can still feel the table or experience the sense of touch sight or hearing through my body.

Feeling, touch, sight, hearing, heartbeat, lungs taking oxygen are you doing this or do they just happen if you like it or not? Do they make up you? Is a you necesarry to make this happen? Do you type or does typing happen? Thoughts what to write come up, fingers type, is there a typer anywhere?

Heartbeat, breathing are doing this without my thought. They happen without me thinking about them. Feeling, touch, sight all just happen as well as an automatic response to me doing. Typing, cooking, getting dressed, it doesn't seem like those just happen automatically because it seems to take a thought coming from me to initiate them. Yes there feels like there is me 'a typer' typing this dialogue.

Are there more parts to you? Are there more than one Jacks? If there is such a thing shouldnt there be only one all the time?

No I don't feel like there are more parts to me. I feel like I am a central figure creating my reality. I don't feel like there are more of me than one. I don't feel like there are parts me or others of me scattered about. One central figure creating one reality.

[Life]

I struggle with the thought of being this picture if there is a me that's actually standing back seeing the picture.
I don't feel like I can be the picture if I am the creator of the picture.

Is the seeing of the picture Jack, really? Would you then not be in control of the seeing?

When you say, are you this picture I have a different perception of the situation. I see myself as the projector or the creator of the picture rather then the object or the picture itself. I'm struggling with 'am I this picture' and I'd have to say no I am not this picture because then I sense myself as just an image projected from myself.

What is this I seeing itself as this or that? Arent this just thoughts? Really focus here, do not write anything you heard or read somewhere, stick to direct experience, is there really more than sensations and thoughts about the sensations?

But there is something keeping me from buying into it being that simple because I still feel there is a me. Then I ask myself am I this body that is sitting here typing and I feel a very real sense of yes there is me this body sitting here. So I feel it's really just the way you phrased the question " are you this picture" that changes the way I perceive me i.e. just the picture created from a projection.

Feeling there is a me does not prove anything and does not need to go anywhere, it is not gone here either it is here for a reason can you see which?

Heartbeat, breathing are doing this without my thought. They happen without me thinking about them. Feeling, touch, sight all just happen as well as an automatic response to me doing. Typing, cooking, getting dressed, it doesn't seem like those just happen automatically because it seems to take a thought coming from me to initiate them. Yes there feels like there is me 'a typer' typing this dialogue.

What is seemingly happening does not have to be true, the sun also seems to rise and set but in reality the earth spins. Everyone except one thought the earth was flat, was it ever?

Thoughts come to do things a certain way (conditioning), actions are taken, do you control which exact thought comes when? Can you now not think about Donald Duck or an orange whale? See? ;)

No I don't feel like there are more parts to me. I feel like I am a central figure creating my reality. I don't feel like there are more of me than one. I don't feel like there are parts me or others of me scattered about. One central figure creating one reality.

How can a figure create reality? Is the figure separate from the whole? Is there a center in the whole/everything? But now we are speculating and philosophising which does shit without looking in direct experience. Feeling like it has to be like this or that wont do here, only seeing the way things are right now, okay Jacky?

[notajack]

Is the seeing of the picture Jack, really? Would you then not be in control of the seeing?

When I look deep to answer your question I'm vacillating between am I seeing Jack as a projection created by Jack or am I experiencing Jack? As I look further I feel like something tangible physically that is experiencing a presence I call Jack. The seeing of Jack is real and yes I am in control of that seeing.

What is this I seeing itself as this or that? Arent this just thoughts? Really focus here, do not write anything you heard or read somewhere, stick to direct experience, is there really more than sensations and thoughts about the sensations?

It all seems to be just thought. One thought is of me sitting here typing. Another thought is of me making up a picture of me. So trying to prove there is a me doesn't matter because it too is just a thought.

Feeling there is a me does not prove anything and does not need to go anywhere, it is not gone here either it is here for a reason can you see which?

No they are just thoughts being judged as true or false by other thoughts that just pop into the mind.

What is seemingly happening does not have to be true, the sun also seems to rise and set but in reality the earth spins. Everyone except one thought the earth was flat, was it ever?

Thoughts come to do things a certain way (conditioning), actions are taken, do you control which exact thought comes when? Can you now not think about Donald Duck or an orange whale? See? ;)

The thoughts come and no I don't feel like I have control of what thoughts come. I may try to concentrate and create a thought but I don't really feel in control of what that thought will be? I feel like it may have a subject matter similar to what I'm focusing on i.e. Donald Duck yes a thought will come up with another thought of my mental image of what a Donald Duck is, and it's all a collection of random thoughts coming to me. And when I say me, that too just continues on with more thoughts of who me is, just another thought.

How can a figure create reality? Is the figure separate from the whole? Is there a center in the whole/everything? But now we are speculating and philosophising which does shit without looking in direct experience. Feeling like it has to be like this or that wont do here, only seeing the way things are right now, okay Jacky?

A figure can't create reality. The figure is just a thought. The whole is just a thought. Is there anything other than thought? So is it just a matter of experiencing thought? Seeing everything as thought? Allowing thoughts to come and just experiencing the present moment as the thought that it is, Machiely?

[Life]

The seeing of Jack is real and yes I am in control of that seeing.

So Jack is never not seen?

It all seems to be just thought. One thought is of me sitting here typing. Another thought is of me making up a picture of me. So trying to prove there is a me doesn't matter because it too is just a thought.

yes the thought is i type and i imagine but can a thought be a typer or imaginer or separate entity/Jack?

No they are just thoughts being judged as true or false by other thoughts that just pop into the mind.

right just thoughts, so is there a me anywhere? What is mind? Does it really exist? Is it you?

The thoughts come and no I don't feel like I have control of what thoughts come. I may try to concentrate and create a thought but I don't really feel in control of what that thought will be? I feel like it may have a subject matter similar to what I'm focusing on i.e. Donald Duck yes a thought will come up with another thought of my mental image of what a Donald Duck is, and it's all a collection of random thoughts coming to me. And when I say me, that too just continues on with more thoughts of who me is, just another thought.

So if your not thoughts are you doing the focussing or is focussing just happening without a you? If i would have mentioned Daffy Duck the focus wouldve been there.

How can a figure create reality? Is the figure separate from the whole? Is there a center in the whole/everything? But now we are speculating and philosophising which does shit without looking in direct experience. Feeling like it has to be like this or that wont do here, only seeing the way things are right now, okay Jacky?

A figure can't create reality. The figure is just a thought. The whole is just a thought. Is there anything other than thought? So is it just a matter of experiencing thought? Seeing everything as thought? Allowing thoughts to come and just experiencing the present moment as the thought that it is, Machiely?

See some irritation from missspelling your name, was there any control there?
Is thought the present moment or are thoughts observed or not observed? What needs to be seen is if there is separate allowing entity or not. Is there really a see-er, allower, thinker, hearer?

But this is not about my understanding vs. your understanding, its more laserlike focus on if there is a self or not till it is seen whats true.