I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:18 am

Hi machiel,

How is the form there? Or better say, how are you?

Been popping in and out of existence online. There was a looking into more thoughts and more and more and at the end....... I kinda almost gave up.....I was overtaken by thoughts and to be mine. SO I said to myself 'Oh screw God and Truth.....God/Truth thinks that I should still continue with the seeking for no self'. I don't deserve it, perhaps? NOt ready? Too risky?
there is the assumption that there is something that needs to be seen trough for it to fall away or be seen
YES!

I read this quote of yours in previous posts and I agree. I keep on looking for the doer in actions all the time and for the thinker of thoughts, not seeing that I am not the one who is seeking and looking. It now feels like I am seeking again. :(
Find out where any mental answer comes from
Sometimes (the negative ones) are not mine, cause I am not gonna think negatively about life. BUt sometimes thoughts seem to be mine and when that is seen......emotions kick in and I loose God.
Who are you that is aware of thought? A
Dunno. I really dunno. Been looking for awareness in silence periods and tried to melt into awareness. But to be honoust...there is no awareness....ONly objects. Tony Parsons was right. There is no awarenesss. THere is only aliveness.
left? Answer the question, are you or are you not separate from the world?
Yes...I am inside a body looking at a world outside of me......I am the one thinking and doing sometimes. Sometimes not. Truth has become a concept again. It feels like I am saying that 'truth has become a concept'....there is no way out for the I here.
What actually is the world, how do you experience it?
It is seperate from me, the body, the doer. Sometimes. And yes, I exist in deep sleep althought I can't rememeber it.
The eye itself that sees the form is also form, right?
You have never seen the eye!!! The eyes see objects outside of me. No awareness for the eyes to see. That is my experience now. I see the screen. I hear sounds. I feel the ass on the chair. I feel the biting of the lips.

Perhaps give up and live life like most of the others do, even if it include suffering sometimes. I can deal with that till the last of my physicial days. I am strong to live through life with a bit of suffering. BUt I cannot live with the uncercainty of not knowing what I am or what is God.

God................something far away who created me.

I think.

enjoy your day.

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Life
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:28 pm

Been popping in and out of existence online. There was a looking into more thoughts and more and more and at the end....... I kinda almost gave up.....I was overtaken by thoughts and to be mine. SO I said to myself 'Oh screw God and Truth.....God/Truth thinks that I should still continue with the seeking for no self'. I don't deserve it, perhaps? NOt ready? Too risky?
What is the difference between thoughts and I?
there is the assumption that there is something that needs to be seen trough for it to fall away or be seen

YES!

I read this quote of yours in previous posts and I agree. I keep on looking for the doer in actions all the time and for the thinker of thoughts, not seeing that I am not the one who is seeking and looking. It now feels like I am seeking again. :(
Do not agree with me, look for yourself, does anything need to be changed to see what is already the case? It seems there is seeking here as well, reading of text seemingly getting even closer to what I already am, sharing insights on twitter and facebook, so what? All seeking happens in and as Truth/God/Self, without any real individual separate from it. Look further, look is there really a seeker behind the seeking? A looker behind looking?
Find out where any mental answer comes from

Sometimes (the negative ones) are not mine, cause I am not gonna think negatively about life. BUt sometimes thoughts seem to be mine and when that is seen......emotions kick in and I loose God.
Negative or possitive thoughts dont say a thing about if they are you or yours, they aren't sometimes you and sometimes not its one or the other! How thing s seem to be irrelevant, how things really are is. Emotions are absolutely no obstruction to seeing if there is a you or not behind the emotion, have a look is there something behind having it or does it just come and go?
Who are you that is aware of thought?

Dunno. I really dunno. Been looking for awareness in silence periods and tried to melt into awareness. But to be honoust...there is no awareness....ONly objects. Tony Parsons was right. There is no awarenesss. THere is only aliveness.
I dont care about perfect answers i care about what is seen! There is nothing to melt together there is no you and awareness or aliveness or god or truth or whatever you like to call it. It are all concepts describing the undiscribable. So yeah true only object, meaning no subject - object duality, no individual self trying to become awareness[subject].
left? Answer the question, are you or are you not separate from the world?

Yes...I am inside a body looking at a world outside of me......I am the one thinking and doing sometimes. Sometimes not. Truth has become a concept again. It feels like I am saying that 'truth has become a concept'....there is no way out for the I here.
Ok so you are a little man inside a machine[body] controlling it? How do you see this?

Right no way out, stalemate(of mat), no more moves to make, trying to change or improve something in order to see is futile and useless...
What actually is the world, how do you experience it?

It is seperate from me, the body, the doer. Sometimes. And yes, I exist in deep sleep althought I can't rememeber it.
Why everyone here is so good at dodging questions? :P Just a simple question... how do you know the world exists? How do you perceive it? Know of it? Sometimes this, sometimes that, come on mate it is one way or the other, find out, get sure!

I exist in sleep, sure, but what is this I? Senses, body, thoughts, emotions, being aware, all gone, yet something must remain, this one might call the real I, look, is this individual?
The eye itself that sees the form is also form, right?

You have never seen the eye!!! The eyes see objects outside of me. No awareness for the eyes to see. That is my experience now. I see the screen. I hear sounds. I feel the ass on the chair. I feel the biting of the lips.

Perhaps give up and live life like most of the others do, even if it include suffering sometimes. I can deal with that till the last of my physicial days. I am strong to live through life with a bit of suffering. BUt I cannot live with the uncercainty of not knowing what I am or what is God.

God................something far away who created me.

I think.

enjoy your day.
so? There is a physical eye, it is a part of the body, right? What im pointing out is no separation between the eye(form) that sees and what is seen(form), is that true? What is me, what is this I? What do you consider to be you?

What is thought doesnt matter, who does the thinking, what is aware of thought?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:58 am

HI,

Been looking into the questions that popped up. I was tricked by them AGAIN. Then the realization happened again that those questions were just popping up.

I have been looking into 'who is doing the seeking'. It is hopeless. If follow that thought, I am an individual again.
Something is blocking to see there is no I .

Awareness? Sometimes I stare at the wall and just wonder 'what am I doing'?'....waiting for grace to descend and hoping that in non doing awareness is known as if it was an object. I cannot find myself as the awareness, or recognize it. What I do is 'be the awareness' and thus seeing if so , I understanbd better how it feels to be awareness or the 'seeer'.

I guess I am trapped again in thoughts believed in and you are saying that the I cannot do anything cuase it doesn't exist. Frustrating.

This is what there is. There is existence or seomthing happening:

- moistering the lips
- coughing
- thought
- swallowing
- breathing out
- opening the eyes
- inhalation
- twitching the head


and then thought says 'what is awareness (doorhebbendheid) ?' in all of this?

I go blank because what I am looking for isn't an experience.

take care and hope you are doing ok.

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Life
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:30 am

right what notices all of this? what i say doesnt matter , investigate what is said.

what notices blankness, what is I?

there is nothing in the way, nothing has to change for seeing to happen, it is happening right now. Seer and seen appear and disappear every day, you dont, what you think you are, seer and seen come annd go look for what is before, what is their source?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:42 am

Sorry as I had a mayor ego blow 2 days ago. I was an I again.

NOw today I started to do the experiments again of seeing if there is free will in doing those experiments.
I think I am the doer at the end...at the very end of the action but am not sure.

I will continue with these experimetns as they are standing in the way to seeing there is no I. Doership has to be looked at in the eye.

What is source? you said. I dunno. That is whta I am trying to look for but it doesn't come as a tought.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:37 am

thats right, it will never come as a thought, your caught up in thoughts, this ego blow is nothing but a story in thought.

Inquire, what is aware of the thoughts? dont answer, look to see, notice in experience.

dont go back to the experiments, just check everyday experience, who does the waking up in the morning? the morning ritual, eating breakfast, going to work? breathing, thinking, opening/blinking eyes? No special experiments or techniques needed, no special instruction from me, dont rely on me or anyone else.
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:40 pm

What im pointing out is no separation between the eye(form) that sees and what is seen(form),
Yes....what is outside is the seeing (a function of what the eye is doing).....

so what is there is the seeing. What is behind the eyes then? Cause I see that there is seeing taking place outside.
just check everyday experience
That is what I have been doing for the last 3 years! So see if life is happening on itself or if there is a free will in it somehow. I mean it. I am checking it out the whole day, while walking, breakfast, showering, shaving, shitting, typing, attention, intention, squeezing, itching, feeling etc.

No effort is involved in walking. That is for sure. The foot take a turn in a corner. Only thought claims that I can walk slower of faster. If I don't go into that thought-experiment, all is fine. But then walking becomes unnaturally because I try to see if I can change the slowness of walking. Same with all the other experiments. I try to see if I can open a door at will, take the soap at will, breath faster, lift the hand, put the hand on my head, blink faster.

What I noticed is that when I relax into the checking/looking.....it is like you say and I feel like it is....things will unfold effortlessly if you want it or not. So while being relaxed and looking, moistering is happening, coughing, another thought that says 'what should I do now'.

Yes, the story is being played out and not believed in sometimes. It is like listening to a story in thought that is not real. That is why I can't understand this with thought as though is just faking that there is a I who thinks. So sometimes I let all these seeking thoughts about awareness happen and be still...not doing..relaxing.
what is aware of the thoughts? do
aware? I don't know what that means. I always have to find another word in Dutch (doorhebbendheid, in de gatenheid, waarnemen) to try to feel it out.

I am sure that there is stuff happening. That is all really it. As nothing shows up in the looking at awarenesss. The experience doesn't talk and say here it is..awareness. Nodding the face. Nope.

I try to see at it as if I have never heard of awareness in my life. Otherwise it will become a concept I have to look for and compare in experience.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:15 pm

thats right, it will never come as a thought, your caught up in thoughts, this ego blow is nothing but a story in thought.

Inquire, what is aware of the thoughts? dont answer, look to see, notice in experience.
Yes....what is outside is the seeing (a function of what the eye is doing).....

so what is there is the seeing. What is behind the eyes then? Cause I see that there is seeing taking place outside.
outside of what? what is this I that sees this? where is it? can you point to it?
just check everyday experience
That is what I have been doing for the last 3 years! So see if life is happening on itself or if there is a free will in it somehow. I mean it. I am checking it out the whole day, while walking, breakfast, showering, shaving, shitting, typing, attention, intention, squeezing, itching, feeling etc.

No effort is involved in walking. That is for sure. The foot take a turn in a corner. Only thought claims that I can walk slower of faster. If I don't go into that thought-experiment, all is fine. But then walking becomes unnaturally because I try to see if I can change the slowness of walking. Same with all the other experiments. I try to see if I can open a door at will, take the soap at will, breath faster, lift the hand, put the hand on my head, blink faster.

What I noticed is that when I relax into the checking/looking.....it is like you say and I feel like it is....things will unfold effortlessly if you want it or not. So while being relaxed and looking, moistering is happening, coughing, another thought that says 'what should I do now'.

yes thoughts will always keep saying 'now what?' No matter how profound the experience or revalation, it still wants to claim you did it, that more needs to be done or changed.

All Im saying is stop the special experiments, you can keep on doing things different forever this leaves the question if there is a separate self doing them or not alone, do what you did before those 3 years and look if there is a self having the experiences. Who is doing all you mention here? What wills or doesnt? thought comes to experiment on willing this or that, look behind those thoughts, do you control exactly what thought comes when? When thought starts in the morning about what? When and what the last thought is?

Yes, the story is being played out and not believed in sometimes. It is like listening to a story in thought that is not real. That is why I can't understand this with thought as though is just faking that there is a I who thinks. So sometimes I let all these seeking thoughts about awareness happen and be still...not doing..relaxing.
What I, where? Dont things always happen first and then thoughts comments?
aware? I don't know what that means. I always have to find another word in Dutch (doorhebbendheid, in de gatenheid, waarnemen) to try to feel it out.

I am sure that there is stuff happening. That is all really it. As nothing shows up in the looking at awarenesss. The experience doesn't talk and say here it is..awareness. Nodding the face. Nope.

I try to see at it as if I have never heard of awareness in my life. Otherwise it will become a concept I have to look for and compare in experience.
What notices thought being there or not? How do you know about all coming and going? never used the word awareness.... how can you look at awareness? what is you other than the thought I this I that?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:59 am

so yes....the thought happens on itself saying 'I am going to do what MAchiel said and check if I can come up with a thought I create'...........
Then waiting for thought in silence......and without any intention to think it...boom....the word 'tree' and 'Messi' and 'banana'. Those thoughts just happen. Yes.
But then I wait for 1 minute and wait untill some action is 'mine'.....I can see that concentration is happening on itself, all thoughts pop up like saying 'be still and wait for the exact moment I can choose a thought '....then another thought 'wait'and another one 'ok, here it comes'.....I can even feel tension in the body at the very moment a thought pops up or I think it. Not sure now if there is an I in all of this.

That is the same experience you told me to let go off. And still it happened. :(

So if life happens on itself, it includes the seeking too, right?

The problem is that seeking will continue untill 'awareness'is recognized to be what I am.
I can't go into thought trying to figure out antyhing, as that comes from ego. Any doing is ego.

And still with this revelation that I am not the thoughts that pop up, no 'noticing' is being recognized.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:30 pm

to know that thoughts are there noticing must be happening right, else you would not know that they would be there or not, they are noticed by you so they are not you, right?

Is seeking really a problem?

true this recognition cannot be forced to happen by figuring it out with the mind, thoughts are the ego itself one could say. So yeah its not about doing something and as a result of that something changes and suddenly its seen, you either see it or you don't. Contradictingly if you look into this one pointedly, if there is a separate self or not or to what you really are, to what is always here and what comes and goes seeing has to occur cause its already the case whether you see it or not.

So keep looking, look in nature, at the animals, the weather, is a separate controling entity there controling it or is it all a part of one perfect system? Are you separate from nature?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:57 pm

Thanks,

I can summ/mention up the things that are happening. Is that noticing? THe summing up of stuff happening. There is a certainty about it that stuff is happening. A kind of 'yes, there it is'. BUt it isn't an object. Hard to pinpoint what noticing is, but something is effortless. I can summ up all the effort taking place.

Yes, so no real recognition shows up of awareness now. I thought that was needed. Perhaps I should just continue with the focus/look into if stuff is happening by itself in life/nature.

I keep on saying to myself....when there is no noticing, then I might as well say:

- I hear the music in the background

See? Then noticing/awareness is not needed. But at the same time, there is no music seperate from hearing of music by the ears. What I hear, is what is being heard by the ears. No music out there, but better say..in here. So that leaves the question what this 'I ' is that hears music being heard by ears. Same stuff with 'attention'. Attention doesn't know itself. I needs something else to see it. Same as 'moistering the lips'as it cannot see itself and still I can talk that it happened on itself for sure.

Same with 'I see a tree'. People use that phrase all the time. Better say 'I see that a tree is being seen by the eyes/brain. What is apparantly out there (tree) is in here (brain). ANd a picture cannot see itself. IT needs a mirror.

I will continue with casually looking into the nature of the automatic happening.

thanks!

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:17 am

Just checking if you are still alive.

there is a constant seeing of stuff happening by itself, like:

- attention going to the right
- thoughts

but for the rest the question alwayus pops up 'but there is an I that can do something' and also the believed stuff that I see, I hear, I smell, I touch.

Can you help me to go through the senses, cause i feel that the pivoting back almost always happens with the belief in being the senses.

I see the screen
I hear sounds outside....there a bird.
I touch the keyboard.

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Life
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:45 am

are the senses always there? What is left when all perception from the senses has faded?

What and where is the I in see, hear, feel?

Are you doing seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling or does it just happen choiceless?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:19 pm

are the senses always there? What is left when all perception from the senses has faded?
yes. The senses are there. I see the screen. I hear music. I hear the rain outside.I feel an itch
What and where is the I in see, hear, feel?
It is here. It is obvious. I see the screen. There, I see the speakers. THey are black and have a hole in it. I see a lamp. I see a clock. The I is there in the experience of seeing, of colours. Obvious.
Are you doing seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling or does it just happen choiceless?
I tried to turn the seeing of. Can only do that when I close the eyes and close the ears. So I am inside the head watchign a world outside of me. I am my eyes, I am the ears, the nose. In the direct experience it is like that. a world outside and I am in here in the head seeing, hearing, smelling. I am the force which makes seeing, hearing happen. Perhaps a soul seeing through the eyes.

BUt with feeling it is another thing. It seems it is always on. I can't turn that off if I want. Perhaps only when I am burned, which is not happening. So not relying on science, I want to direct experience that I am not the eys, nose, the person inside of the head seeing, hrearing through the senses. As if I have never heard of awareness, whatever that is.

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:51 pm

In life, whenever I think I can do something or am in control of something, life stops abruptly...I stand still and life doesn't flow. IT happens so many times in the morning when I wake up, waiting for the waking up to happen....waiting for the standing up to happen, waiting for the clothes to be put on, then another standstill for 1 minute , looking if I am in control of brushing the teeth, another standstill, waiting or looking if I can make the toothpaste open..another standstill....looking if I can turn on the shower..in all of those standstills there is a thougth in the background deeply ingrained that says something like 'if life is happening on itself, why the standstills...why doesn't life flow effortlessly?'

I hope that clears up why seeing doesn't happen here. Same with the 5 senses.


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