I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:24 am

Hi Machiel,

I decided to become a non-dual monk for 2 months. I will not go to non-dual chatrooms to discuss non-duality, I will not watch any videos on youtube, I will not read more pdf files, I will not come to liberation unleased for 2 months. If Life is All, it includes the 2 month break and see what lies in direct experience. It will include the experiments and direct looking and the whole thing. Perhaps you are thinking 'that is another way of seeking', but I can't go against the Life Force. Looking must be done without all the books and knowledge and concepts. I started parroting on a non-dual chatroom today and when someone started to talk about that he could control his breath and do stuff and free will, my face became red again.......I can still consciously will something to happen 2 % of the time. The rest seems to be happening without effort. Maybe I am I-ing all over the place now as you might have noticed. Thoughts cannot figure this out and all that I need to know is allready available as knowledge in my brain, thanks to you, Eleatorea and this Forum and everyhting else. If it takes me 2 months or 10 years or perhaps never to see that there is no control and what awareness really is, so be it. All there is is this, right? It includes everything, including the non dual monk-thing of 2 months. I will visit satsangs and just BEING...feeling it out instead of thinking too much about it.

Take care and thanks for showing up.

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Life
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:25 pm

Time to stop whining sir, the experiments go on? So what? Just look, where is the experimenter, does it exist at all?

Nothing is missing, you dont need more understanding, you need to look beyond this. What is aware of understanding in thought?

You want to stare the controler in the face? This tells me two things, the assumption of a separate you needing to find the assumed controler,but do they really exist? Define them, what do you assume them to be? Where? Is there a you and a controler? Is this controler always here?

Of course there is a felt sense of I and doership, there has been identification with this all your life, but where was this sense last night in dreamless sleep? In dream? Things happen to a dream body there is identification with then, where is you then? controler?

Well all of that brought you here, all happening in and as what you really always are and have been before anything as time ever arose. good to stop listening to how others say it is and start looking how things really are.

This is absolutely not about doing something and then suddenly ending up without a self, no sir, no either there is no self already or there isnt for everyone. Nobody more special than the other, no matter what they say.
-----------------------------------
Did you? Where did the thought to do this come from? Anyway good to stop talking and philosophising about this, but understand that this is not about what your doing that will make you see this. Just observe, what is this I playing non-dual monk? Doing direct looking and experimenting?

I can consciously do things 2% of the time? Almost there then ;) Really keep focussing on this i man, what do you call i?

Good luck, yes yes all knowledge is already there, no more needed, now look beyond the mind!

Keep me updated once a week, sound good?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:09 pm

HI Life,

Yesterday after deep meditation at night and then right after that the experiment to see if there I can conciously will my hand to open, my body collapsed out of mysery (not mystery) to the ground. I blanked out totallly.

I made this video for you to explain why the gate is closed. I hope you can hold your concentration as it takes 9 minutes long.

http://youtu.be/MK9M6qCenXg

The Toe

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:41 am

okay, so what is next? This collapse happened in life as life. I understan what you said in the video, some things are clearly done without conscious effort like when you scratched the head there, breathing when concentrating on something else, but what about the heartbeat or growing hair and finger nails and digestion can you start and stop doing that?

When sitting and experimenting with the hand and all, there is the assumption of an i doing the experimenting right? Really the focus has to be on finding out if there is an i or not, you assume i is the doer but is this true? Movement happens wether you think about it or not, right? Look, isnt it so that first movement happen or not and only a milisecond after the thought i moved, i didnt move comes?

One thing is very clear is that A there is the assumption that there is something that needs to be seen trough for it to fall away or be seen, no, what is done here is to really focus to see if there is or isnt an i in the first place, and B that this will happen by having a perfect understanding of this, no, dont these experiments and wont understa nding take place in mind, the thought i dont understand or now i understand means nothing, where do they come from? Thoughts say this and that i hear you say, are you thought? Seeing doesnt happen by thinking about it! Confusion happening yes, does it happen to you?

time for sleep to happen, more tomorrow
take care
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:23 am

to see if there is or isnt an i in the first place
I in the thought 'I am the doer' is the doer for now. Did the experiment again today and another collapse was there. I am not gonna whine.

You searched for truth, right, Machiel, for many years? Did it feel like an I seeking back then? The answer is YES! You seeked, you tried to see truth, you came to liberation unleashed. It is nice to know that you know see that you never seeked back then, but please....remember how it was...that is ME now while trying to see through if the I is a doer or not. I can stop the experiments and say the I is a thought, but it won't bring me far. Then I will just pretend that the experiment do not exist and what is left is a Javier who is pretending to know that there is no I.
some things are clearly done without conscious effort like when you scratched the head there
noticed when I was looking back
heartbeat or growing hair and finger nails and digestion
no doer there, but in the experimetns there is one.
Movement happens wether you think about it or not, right?
in 98% of the time yes. As I said in video, sitting is happening without thought/intention/straining etc.
Look, isnt it so that first movement happen or not
Nope. While thinking about it (I am gonna open the hand whenever I want) , the movement is done by me. I showed it on video. I points to someone who can do stuff in 2% of the time.

I feel like giving up. What is the point of seeking for 10 years for enlightenment? What was yours? If I find out again and again that there is free will and something I can do to change life, then for me there is an I and seperation.
I know of course that I am in the tiger's mouth. I cannot stop seeking. Self inuiry ain't fun anymore. It is producing stress levels beyond measure.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:19 pm

to see if there is or isnt an i in the first place

I in the thought 'I am the doer' is the doer for now. Did the experiment again today and another collapse was there. I am not gonna whine.
Ehm, so what your saying is that I, the thought I, can do everything you do? How? Can a thought think?
You searched for truth, right, Machiel, for many years? Did it feel like an I seeking back then? The answer is YES! You seeked, you tried to see truth, you came to liberation unleashed. It is nice to know that you know see that you never seeked back then, but please....remember how it was...that is ME now while trying to see through if the I is a doer or not. I can stop the experiments and say the I is a thought, but it won't bring me far. Then I will just pretend that the experiment do not exist and what is left is a Javier who is pretending to know that there is no I.
Sure it did, it still feel like me responding to you, only it is seen it isnt absolutely true. The first sense of it came trough looking at a picture of a painting no searching there, after yeah searching to understand it, mysteriously it led to ruthless truth. I do not ask you to pretend anything, i do tell you to look in direct experience if there is an I at all instead of assuming things, understand that this is not a puzzle to be solved with logic.
heartbeat or growing hair and finger nails and digestion
no doer there, but in the experimetns there is one.
I understand it very much looks like this, you can wiggle your toe or open your hand, but what is this you? You can do what you want but you cannot want what you want, meaning where does the thought to make a certain movement come from? Are you in control of that? Do you control the exact moment you think of doing the experiments?
Look, isnt it so that first movement happen or not

Nope. While thinking about it (I am gonna open the hand whenever I want) , the movement is done by me. I showed it on video. I points to someone who can do stuff in 2% of the time.
Very nice but once again, look at what is me, does it exist?
I feel like giving up. What is the point of seeking for 10 years for enlightenment? What was yours? If I find out again and again that there is free will and something I can do to change life, then for me there is an I and seperation.
I know of course that I am in the tiger's mouth. I cannot stop seeking. Self inuiry ain't fun anymore. It is producing stress levels beyond measure.
Do you find this out? This is not about you or me proving there is a self or doer or not, merely looking at experience if there is or not is, what is true for one is true for all, no differentiation.

One experriment i want you to do is raise your arm 75 times, tell me how it went.

take care
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:38 pm

Ehm, so what your saying is that I, the thought I, can do everything you do? How? Can a thought think?
The I in the thought makes reference to the doer. The doer can do something in 2% of the cases. Who cares if it is named I or Ali BAba or the doer. Again, I showed you on the video that with intention and straining and force , the doer can make the hand open (this is the answer to your 'how' question). That is it. Been the direct experience for 3 years. Sure, sometimes the hand stays closed and doesn't open. I makes reference to a doer who can do something in the future. This is a guess that something is gonna happen in the future as I said here, sometimes hte hand stays closed when doing the experiment of free will.
to look in direct experience if there is an I at all instead of assuming things,
Assuming? lol. isn't the video I posted here for you all about 'looking'into this? I was looking into every single thing, from intention, straining, pre-thought and after-thought. I have looked again today and I come to pretty much the same conclusion. I can consciously will myself to do stuff. The 2% freee will has gone to 1, 5% free will now, as sometimes the experiment stops and nothing is moved. It is in the direct lookint that this is so. I am beginning to think that liberation is a myth and seperation is more true now.

In other words....how should I look then? that might be the question for you!! Look how? YOu said on your website that you don't have to do anything to see truth. I don't understand what you are saying, machiel.
you can wiggle your toe or open your hand, but what is this you?
I can? huh? I can open my hand as Life itself? So life itself has free will now? pffft.
Do you control the exact moment you think of doing the experiments?
I don't think I have ever seen anyone who has been that ruthless with experiments of free will and doership. Mostly here on this forum I see people talk about after-thoughts. The most often thought here is 'I am going to do.....'. Sometimes I sens that a story is being told in thought-form which is fake and then laughter arises. Often the thought comes and I don't put any effort into it. I will look into that more. thanks
Very nice but once again, look at what is me, does it exist?
The doer exists. The hand doesn't open on itself. I tried many times ' now the hand is gonna lift in the air out of itself'...and guess what...nothing happens. So some force (the doer) is needed.
One experriment i want you to do is raise your arm 75 times, tell me how it went.
Okay. I am going to raise my hand 75 times whenever I want. Will report on you.

Take care

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:11 am

Many Insights are happening as to 'what is doing the seeking and questioning and experimenting'. Man.......laughter arises. The same was seen yesterday at night when casual looking at it was taking place, same as today. Wow. The thought are sooooo loud but soooo distant,just happening, no I doing them, just pretend thought, saying all kind of fake stuff as:

- I am Javier and I am going to seek
- I am a me you see? Don't you see?
- I will become enlightened now..you will miss me now.

hahhahahhaha

and the funniest of them all , the thought saying:

- I see now that seeking is happening on itself.


see? even that isn't known. that too is fake ...a story being told in thought.lol

taking a rest now and this was a another blow to the identification.

ps: raising the hand for 75 times, it is that no effort/intention/straining is needed after 5 times or so and beyond . but not sure after the first one raising of the hand.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:58 pm

Ehm, so what your saying is that I, the thought I, can do everything you do? How? Can a thought think?

The I in the thought makes reference to the doer. The doer can do something in 2% of the cases. Who cares if it is named I or Ali BAba or the doer. Again, I showed you on the video that with intention and straining and force , the doer can make the hand open (this is the answer to your 'how' question). That is it. Been the direct experience for 3 years. Sure, sometimes the hand stays closed and doesn't open. I makes reference to a doer who can do something in the future. This is a guess that something is gonna happen in the future as I said here, sometimes hte hand stays closed when doing the experiment of free will.
Ok, true doer and i are only labels, but do you really see that the label points to nothing? What you showed in the video proves nothing, only a hand slowly opening with thought before that your gonna open the hand, with some force the hand opens, then the thought ''I opened the hand, see there is free will for me''. Can you not think of buggs bunny now?
to look in direct experience if there is an I at all instead of assuming things

Assuming? lol. isn't the video I posted here for you all about 'looking'into this? I was looking into every single thing, from intention, straining, pre-thought and after-thought. I have looked again today and I come to pretty much the same conclusion. I can consciously will myself to do stuff. The 2% freee will has gone to 1, 5% free will now, as sometimes the experiment stops and nothing is moved. It is in the direct lookint that this is so. I am beginning to think that liberation is a myth and seperation is more true now.

In other words....how should I look then? that might be the question for you!! Look how? YOu said on your website that you don't have to do anything to see truth. I don't understand what you are saying, machiel.
Really admire what you did, could you control defending yourself and feeling a bit offended there? Do you control the exact moment you wake? Sleep comes? When you feel hungry or thirsty? Might not have been crystal clear on all blogposts but meant that nothing needs to change and yeah that looking is already happening right now if you like it or not, or do you control when awareness comes and goes?
you can wiggle your toe or open your hand, but what is this you?

I can? huh? I can open my hand as Life itself? So life itself has free will now? pffft.
Stop evading this question, there is the assumption it is the doer but is there really one? Or just the thought? Seen this video btw? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Biv_8xjj8E Life happens including and not separate from you, seeming free will or not.
Do you control the exact moment you think of doing the experiments?

I don't think I have ever seen anyone who has been that ruthless with experiments of free will and doership. Mostly here on this forum I see people talk about after-thoughts. The most often thought here is 'I am going to do.....'. Sometimes I sens that a story is being told in thought-form which is fake and then laughter arises. Often the thought comes and I don't put any effort into it. I will look into that more. thanks
Yeah very ruthless, also only struggle, experimenting or meditating and even looking are a nice start but if eventually there is no looking/observing/checking if there is an experimenter, meditator, looker, observer, checker it leads nowhere.
Very nice but once again, look at what is me, does it exist?

The doer exists. The hand doesn't open on itself. I tried many times ' now the hand is gonna lift in the air out of itself'...and guess what...nothing happens. So some force (the doer) is needed.
Did you have choice that movement didnt occur?
Many Insights are happening as to 'what is doing the seeking and questioning and experimenting'. Man.......laughter arises. The same was seen yesterday at night when casual looking at it was taking place, same as today. Wow. The thought are sooooo loud but soooo distant,just happening, no I doing them, just pretend thought, saying all kind of fake stuff as:

- I am Javier and I am going to seek
- I am a me you see? Don't you see?
- I will become enlightened now..you will miss me now.

hahhahahhaha

and the funniest of them all , the thought saying:

- I see now that seeking is happening on itself.


see? even that isn't known. that too is fake ...a story being told in thought.lol

taking a rest now and this was a another blow to the identification.

ps: raising the hand for 75 times, it is that no effort/intention/straining is needed after 5 times or so and beyond . but not sure after the first one raising of the hand.
Yes yes, all stories, so can you see I is always a story, movement or not?

Did you have control over doing this exercise?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:55 am

Yes yes, all stories, so can you see I is always a story, movement or not?
It is more obvious then ever, so there is not much effort being put on exercises today after that seeing yesterday. The thought of saying 'I am stupid' is a story , yes. No I saying that. Just thought and no belief attached to it. So the emotions do not kick in afterwards of feeling sad . Another thought saying 'I am gonna loose myself with this'. Just a thought not produced by an I. Thought just arose. No emotions and further seeking is needed.
This is new stuff unfolding. Give me some time to look that this is always the case. Straining, forcing the hand to open, tingling sensation in the hand....all happening for sure without an I. In the experiments I was assuming there to be someone opening the hand and thinking to open it.

I watched that video a couple of months ago and read info on the lamme experiments of no free will.
Yeah very ruthless, also only struggle, experimenting or meditating and even looking are a nice start but if eventually there is no looking/observing/checking if there is an experimenter, meditator, looker, observer, checker it leads nowhere.
yes. So the thought appears here 'who or what is looking for looking'. Question arises on itself. No I questionning the question. And instantaniously looking for the looking showed up. It is so fast that it seems like no I was there either. Not sure. Only after-thought saying....I was looking for what is doing the looking.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:51 pm

Good to see that you seem to struggle less.
yes. So the thought appears here 'who or what is looking for looking'. Question arises on itself. No I questionning the question. And instantaniously looking for the looking showed up. It is so fast that it seems like no I was there either. Not sure. Only after-thought saying....I was looking for what is doing the looking.
What is this I would you say? Is it individual or universal? Is it anything at all? Subtle, form? After-thought is also just thought right? So is there an i anywhere at all?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:09 am

Hi Machiel,

After that moment of recognition that 'seeking-questions' popped up effortlessly, a lot of struggle went out of the door. That is why I couldn't write anything. I wasn't capable of describing what was happening during the last 16 days. I was thrown into not knowing what the hell 'awareness 'and 'life' was all about. There is more and more emotional baggage released from not believing in thoughts, either positive or negative. Sometimes I get all emotional about something and seconds later there is the recognition that that too was a thought believed in. NOt sure (= thought) what to do next.
So is there an i anywhere at all?
Still there is a body doing stuff and a chair or keyboard out there, seperate. There is no I in a chair. BUt the unconditional love or understanding that there is awareness of whatever is happening is not clear. Thoughts appear here saying 'witness that it is being done'......so there is witnessing going on that it is just happening. That is as close as it gets. There is a 'seeing' that sights apear. There is a 'seeing' that attention goes to the door.

But again. ......... there seems to be a witness here behind the eyes and a seperate world outside. As if the body is filled with light and remains there in the body, not outspilling outside of the body's limits.

Makes sens? Althought the thoughts pop up out of itself, effort is being put into the questions.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:09 pm

Hi Machiel,

After that moment of recognition that 'seeking-questions' popped up effortlessly, a lot of struggle went out of the door. That is why I couldn't write anything. I wasn't capable of describing what was happening during the last 16 days. I was thrown into not knowing what the hell 'awareness 'and 'life' was all about. There is more and more emotional baggage released from not believing in thoughts, either positive or negative. Sometimes I get all emotional about something and seconds later there is the recognition that that too was a thought believed in. NOt sure (= thought) what to do next.
Less struggle, good to hear that :)

There may be belief or no belief in thought, but is it your thought in the first place? Are you thought?

What next? Do whatever feels right but whatever is done, find out what exactly you consider to be you?
So is there an i anywhere at all?

Still there is a body doing stuff and a chair or keyboard out there, seperate. There is no I in a chair. BUt the unconditional love or understanding that there is awareness of whatever is happening is not clear. Thoughts appear here saying 'witness that it is being done'......so there is witnessing going on that it is just happening. That is as close as it gets. There is a 'seeing' that sights apear. There is a 'seeing' that attention goes to the door.

But again. ......... there seems to be a witness here behind the eyes and a seperate world outside. As if the body is filled with light and remains there in the body, not outspilling outside of the body's limits.

Makes sens? Althought the thoughts pop up out of itself, effort is being put into the questions.
Who needs to be made clear? What is there when witness and witnessed are not? In what way are you separate from the world? When you appear does the world ever not appear? When all form/object is gone what remains? That which sees form is itself form. What is the subject/the one everything appears to? observe.
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:13 am

HI,

How is that form over there in 2013?

I have been taking more rest with occasional 'looking'. MOst of the time was put into looking if thoughts were mine or just happening. MOst of the emotional contact or belief is gone, but the question remains now: If I am not my thoughts, I cannot figure awareness out with thought and so the question remains....what is left?
What is there when witness and witnessed are not?
dunno
In what way are you separate from the world?
I don't know what is there left when everything is happening on itself.
When you appear does the world ever not appear?
yes, the world appears when I open my eyes.
When all form/object is gone what remains?
Been looking into that but no answer comes up in seeing. No recognition of being awareness as the true essence that is left.
That which sees form is itself form. What is the subject/the one everything appears to? observe.
There is form for sure...sights of pc, touch of bum on seat, coughing, inhalation etc. That is all. That which sees form (awareness) is not seen to be the true Self. I heard it many times and try to see it or try to be it. There are forms for sure. BUt no recognition of awareness.

Hope all is well and happy new now, machiel.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:00 pm

HI,

How is that form over there in 2013?

I have been taking more rest with occasional 'looking'. MOst of the time was put into looking if thoughts were mine or just happening. MOst of the emotional contact or belief is gone, but the question remains now: If I am not my thoughts, I cannot figure awareness out with thought and so the question remains....what is left?
haha happy new year to you too :-)

Right it is not about figuring anything out with thought, neighter about stopping thought but looking behind thought, is anything there? Where does it come from? Is there a source? Every time thoughts come up that bother you, look, where does it arise? Dont ask for an answer, which is only more thought, just observe, look! Find out where any mental answer comes from...
What is there when witness and witnessed are not?

dunno
Who doesnt know? An answer doesnt need to come up, look beyond or prior to thought. Who are you that is aware of thought? Again do not answer from the mind how you think it should be, look further.
In what way are you separate from the world?

I don't know what is there left when everything is happening on itself.
left? Answer the question, are you or are you not separate from the world?
When you appear does the world ever not appear?

yes, the world appears when I open my eyes.
So you appear simultaneous with the world never do you appear while the world doesnt or the other way around, observe, is this true? What actually is the world, how do you experience it?
When all form/object is gone what remains?

Been looking into that but no answer comes up in seeing. No recognition of being awareness as the true essence that is left.
Where are you then? You still exist in deep sleep, right?
That which sees form is itself form. What is the subject/the one everything appears to? observe.

There is form for sure...sights of pc, touch of bum on seat, coughing, inhalation etc. That is all. That which sees form (awareness) is not seen to be the true Self. I heard it many times and try to see it or try to be it. There are forms for sure. BUt no recognition of awareness.
The eye itself that sees the form is also form, right? Trying to be aware[ness] is nonsense, just observe the way things are right now, nothing needs to change, we are not looking for anything new, no new thing to identify with, anything one can ever observe isnt it.
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/


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