I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

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The Toe
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I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:10 pm

Hi Life,

:)

Looking is blocking me from seeing truth. It is still effort/doing involved. I understand that you said that (looking/investigating) too is happening.

Now I am trying to get rid of the one who is looking. That is also effort.

DOes truth require effort to be the truth? If so, why looking? And if looking for 6 years , coming back, letting go and coming back again doesn't work........what then?

Looking implies 'someone'. I am resting in effortlessness now. It feels that there is nothing I can do about seeing truth. I am not even consciously doing anything anymore. I am not sending signals, consciously trying to figure it out, asking etc. I just can't do the looking anymore. Seeing only happens when all doing is dropped. It is a viscious cicle. I know.

So every thought that comes by...it is just bla bla bla conditioning. NOthnig new. Saying to yourself 'it is all 1 consciousness' or 'is there any control'......bla bla bla.

Truth doesn't require effort. Do you agree? Otherwise it depends 'someone' looking.

take care

The Toe (javier)

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:33 am

Alright lets talk, agreed efford implies things are not in their right place as they are right now... But contradictingly it also is necesary to want nothing else than the truth of what you are and mostly what your not. Meaning a focus on this in the middle of everyday activities, busy or silence. Only seeing the way things really are already is necesarry. You always exist during all the changes of waking and dreaming and everything in it and deep sleep as the only thing that never changes cause you cannot be two, one time one thing then the other agree?
Looking is blocking me from seeing truth. It is still effort/doing involved. I understand that you said that (looking/investigating) too is happening.

Now I am trying to get rid of the one who is looking. That is also effort.
Since your not doing looking and it just started on its own at birth how can it block you from seeing truth? Tell me, what do you see as the me which must see/find truth? What is the one that is lookin, having thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations and so on?
Looking implies 'someone'. I am resting in effortlessness now. It feels that there is nothing I can do about seeing truth. I am not even consciously doing anything anymore. I am not sending signals, consciously trying to figure it out, asking etc. I just can't do the looking anymore. Seeing only happens when all doing is dropped. It is a viscious cicle. I know.
Good, although seeing or being conscious of the whole of the ever continuing show of life is happening all the time no matter if your working or relaxing or consciously looking.
So every thought that comes by...it is just bla bla bla conditioning. NOthnig new. Saying to yourself 'it is all 1 consciousness' or 'is there any control'......bla bla bla.

take care

The Toe (javier)
Having true peaceful thoughts or wrong hateful thoughts is not so relevant, finding out what is aware of them is and if this individual named Javier really exists. Is sky affected by the clouds?

any questions?

What takes care? ;)
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:00 am

Hi Machiel,
You always exist during all the changes
It wasn't that I stopped looking. I was kinda forced to do that. I could do nothing more than not doing. The mind blocked out, like trying to think of somebody's name and it is on the tip of the tongue.

You asked me if I had any questions. I do.

Funny things are happening while effortlessness is happening here. It happened 2 times 5 minutes ago that thoughts said, not me, I was kinda listening to the thoughts and not doing anything, remember? Effortlessness Life.

Thoughts said and kept on becoming LOUDER AND LOUDER AND SUPERLOUD...almost as I was watching them. They said:

'I am going to move my arm''
'I am going to move my ARM'
'I am going to move my hand'
'I am going to move my body Goddamned'
'NOw move it, you'
'MOVEEEEEEEEEE '
'YEs there is a you, you YOU'

HAHHAHHAHHAHA. That was funny. SO claer to see that those were not my thoughts. I went downstairs. And back...I was identified with thoughts again. I felt sad.

I was reading Cosmik's advice on 3 things to look at. Yes, again it has to do with there being control or not, cause that seems to be the I..the one that can do things sometimes.

Maybe you can help me to see through control by simply looking while being effortless. I talk too much.

Here the question:

HOw to look/see through that 'seeing a screen is happening' instead of 'I see a screen'.

Let's start with that. How it feels here is like this. I see a screen. I see that colours appear. The screen that I see is black, 24 inch. It has letters on it, light....You don't see my screen. I see it. At the same time I cannot stop seeing. And also I assume that 'seeing a keyboard is not seperate from experience. I see that the experience of seeing a screen is happening???? It feels I am behind my eyes, looking at a screen outside. I am looking through the eyes. I am here and the screen is there, althought the screen is not seperate from seeing, cause a seperate screen doesn't exist. THe screen needs eyes to see them. I am my eyes.

thanks for listening. Maybe a bit long and much bla blablabla perhaps. But I really want only truth. Obsessed by it .

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:07 pm

HAHHAHHAHHAHA. That was funny. SO claer to see that those were not my thoughts. I went downstairs. And back...I was identified with thoughts again. I felt sad.
Ok good, so upstairs it was seen that thoughts are not who you are, downstairs identification (won't tell you to stay upstairs ;) was back and a sad feeling came (where is it now?), what knows of this being identified or not? What is aware of thoughts and feelings? The whole fact you can be aware of thoughts [identified or not] doesn't that mean you cannot possibly be the thoughts your also aware of?
I was reading Cosmik's advice on 3 things to look at. Yes, again it has to do with there being control or not, cause that seems to be the I..the one that can do things sometimes.

Maybe you can help me to see through control by simply looking while being effortless. I talk too much.

Here the question:

HOw to look/see through that 'seeing a screen is happening' instead of 'I see a screen'.

Let's start with that. How it feels here is like this. I see a screen. I see that colours appear. The screen that I see is black, 24 inch. It has letters on it, light....You don't see my screen. I see it. At the same time I cannot stop seeing. And also I assume that 'seeing a keyboard is not seperate from experience. I see that the experience of seeing a screen is happening???? It feels I am behind my eyes, looking at a screen outside. I am looking through the eyes. I am here and the screen is there, althought the screen is not seperate from seeing, cause a seperate screen doesn't exist. THe screen needs eyes to see them. I am my eyes.

thanks for listening. Maybe a bit long and much bla blablabla perhaps. But I really want only truth. Obsessed by it .
Well how to again implies something needs to change, seeing is already occuring same as here without a separate I doing it, no matter the thought ''I see''. What is I for you? What is behind the eyes? Are the eyes always functioning?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:10 am

Well how to again implies something needs to change, seeing is already occuring same as here without a separate I doing it, no matter the thought ''I see''.
Can you deny that the screen and the keyboard appear in front of you? There are colours. What sees that seeing is taking place then? Cause The seeing takes place behind the eyes in the middle of the brain, in between my ears.
I see colours sounds reasonable to me. Ok, sometimes I forget about seeing while walking for instance, but still I see what happens on the streets, cars and people walking by.
What is I for you?
The invisible doer...the one being in control sometimes
What is behind the eyes?
Don't know. THe one that sees, hears and feels, thinks. Something is there. I am not seeing colours from my belly or feet. NO! The seeing of colours is taking place from that point behind the eyes. The seeing of colours is over there and I am over here. I have never seen a screen/keyboard. A keyboard cannot see itself. It must pass through the brain's eyes/lenses in order to be seen. If I close my eyes, no screen. That means that what I see is what happens in the brain/eyes/lenses. I see that I see. I compare it with a camera, which records on a flip-out screen. The screen (what is being sees/colours) cannot see itself. It needs a human being to be seen. So again. I see that I see. OR better say. I see colours.
Are the eyes always functioning?
NO. WHen you wonder off in while sitting on a chair , being exhausted, you know don't even notice what happens around you. For the rest, always functioning yes. Even if I forget doing it.

take care

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The Toe
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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 am

quote by Andrew1 from liberationunleashed
You need to look at life as it's happening in this moment and see that there is no you involved in any part of it.Even simple things like brushing your teeth.See how it is just happening without a you.Look at each detail from picking up your toothbrush to putting toothpaste on it to putting it in your mouth to brushing.See how it is just happening...you're not thinking it into action.
This is what I have been doing for years. I looked for myself in actions/control/initiations /doership etc. I always thought that it was me. I still thinkso sometimes.

The seeing of true non doing/life happening can only be seen when the 'looking' is coming from itself and not me. In other words....when looking is happening too. If I look, it is the doer, the I that looks for there being an I or not in actions. SO in this effortlessness , nothing is being controlled and no looking is happening , only when it wants to look.
See the difference?

I will wait for your reply on 'seeing colours' .

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:50 pm

Do you want to philosophise and get a nice intellectual conclusion to have a concept of reality to cling to? Do you want me to prove there is no self? Do you want to keep doing what you have been doing for years thinking you'll get a different result? I'm sorry but like this it will become an endless back and forth of your point of view vs mine...

The questions I asked need to be looked at in actual reality and then answered not from the mind how you think it should be but how its seen to be in experience beyond the mind.

Reading here and there and quoting others is not going to help, I cannot help you! I do not have something you dont have, its not like that at all.. Neither can I make you see this but merely can I point in a direction, do not get stuck in reading the different ANWB road signs but look if what is pointed at is true in experience.
NO. WHen you wonder off in while sitting on a chair , being exhausted, you know don't even notice what happens around you. For the rest, always functioning yes. Even if I forget doing it.
So how can you be the one that sees? Are you sometimes here and sometimes not?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:42 pm

Do you want me to prove there is no self?
Pointers are welcome. If there is no I, there is no Machiel who can point to truth. Proving there is an I happens or it doesn't. At the end it is up to me, whatever that means, to see truth. Sounds like more identification.
I'm sorry but like this it will become an endless back and forth of your point of view vs mine.
Point taken by 'you'.
The questions I asked need to be looked at in actual reality and then answered not from the mind
Point accepted. MInd cannot figure this out.
I do not have something you dont have, its not like that at all.
you don't have an I and I am an doing I. That is the difference for now. All that can be pointed is to there being no seperate I from Life.
do not get stuck in reading the different ANWB road signs but look if what is pointed at is true in experience.
Good point.
So how can you be the one that sees?
Today while walking I forgot about doing the seeing and still I was seeing. Only thought that says 'I see' afterwards. I am trying to look at it by understanding what it meanst to say 'I see a screen'. Maybe the awareness is looking behind the eyes outwards instead of an I who sees?
Are you sometimes here and sometimes not?
it seems so. While walking today 3 times outside in the cold, I didn't send any signals to the brain. The walking was doing itself. Not sure what that means and has to do with God or wholeness. There was no one doing the walking. Only sense of doing happens when I said to myself 'I am going to walk slower or faster or stop whenever I want''. I just neglected that thought as you told me to do in the other conversation. Most thoughts nowadays are in that fashion....'I am going to do cause the I is needed to do something......'.

I also exist without thought. I could have said that the I is a thought so the I isn't avalable while not thinking. I am looking at the doer RIGHT NOW. I am looking at who is looking at the doer. Help.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:18 am

you don't have an I and I am an doing I. That is the difference for now. All that can be pointed is to there being no seperate I from Life.
No man there either is a separate I or there isn't, there is no difference at all. The difference is only an untested belief that the label ''I'' points to something real. Take a spoon for example, its probably iron and shiny, it has a handle and a piece to eat the food, now is there really such a thing as spoon in real life apart from the material and function? Isn't spoon only a label?
Just like I or Javier is only a label for that particular body, its perceptions, the thoughts and emotions and character and so on? Is there really such a thing as I or Javier in real life? Focus on this alone and forget about all the what ifs and intellectual conclusions and solutions, do not take this as a problem to solve... This is not about doing something or undoing something, okay? Just simply looking at what is already the case right now, investigate, no pressure...
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:33 am

This is not about doing something or undoing something,
Give me more time to investigate in these things. Maybe I will come back in 5 weeks to figure out if seeing colours is done by me or if it is happening, cause too much reading online on the other posts and watching videos is not cutting it. And I can't look now because of the belief in being the doer.

To make you this clear is the following thing that happened to me today. I was sitting on the toilet, looking if there was any doer/control. Normally I would have been out of there in 1 minute. I was sitting for 5 minutes and loooking if shitting was happening on itself or if an I was needed to do it. So nothing happened for 5 minutes. Clear sign that it was not happening on its own accord. An I was needed. That was a depressing moment.
Same with when I was looking if changing channels on the tv was happening on itself or if an I was in control. Again, 5 or 4 minutes of not changing channels even though that I wanted to change it. So yes, in the looking it showed me that things do not happen on themselves. Same with when I was looking at typing right now. Again a silence nothing happening...typing doesn't happen on itself.

Before I go, can you reply please on this last examples I gave you. What am I doing wrong in looking?

ps: I also tried to look at if there is control in thoughts saying 'I am going to lift my hand up in the air'....it feels i am getting closer to unravel this doership/I. So close, but not close enough. Just a millisecond of doubt.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:44 pm

Its up to you but postponing this again is totally unnecesarry, also I dont know for sure where I am in 5 weeks and you dont either.

Well what did you do to get the urge to shit? For the thought to go to the toilet? The thought to wait? If you just dont go trust me it will happen if you like it or not ;) Your waiting for some miracle to happen, life itself is a miracle...
Changing channels happens without a you doing it in the sense that you dont choose when the urge comes to flip according to your preferences which you didnt choose.

Did you choose to type nothing or not flip the channel?

You cannot do looking right or wrong, looking or being aware started happening when waking happened and will cease when sleep comes, or are you consciously doing it? Same with the other senses.

take care :)
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Well what did you do to get the urge to shit?
I cannot make that urge happen. I can not make the urge to sneeze or being hungry happen. Somehow out of the blue, the urge to go to the toilet happens.
For the thought to go to the toilet?
will look into that next time I go to the toilet.
The thought to wait?
There was a sense or sensation that I needed to look at if shitting was happening on itself or not. NOt sure.
If you just dont go trust me it will happen if you like it or not
That is the problem. I was in bed today and said to myself 'I am going to stand up when I want or can...'. Normally I would have stood up, but this time it took me 15 minutes to stand up. Eventually I was forced by life to get up. Same with shitting or sneezing.

hmmm, now the urge came up to drink water. Thought came to go downstairs. Going downstairs is not happening on itself because the urge is not there yet to really go downstairs. I will look into that later on when I finish typng this. Hmmmm...that was also a thought or an urge to finish writing.
life itself is a miracle...
I know it conceptually. NOt directly. If I am the one who can control to take a shit whenever I want on the toiletseat, then there is no miracle.
you dont choose when the urge comes to flip according to your preferences
Yes! I could see that. I have been looking into urges lately to see if I am doing the urges. But at the last milisecond moment of the action whether it is shitting or changing a channel or raising the hand up in the air.

So I feel that if Urges/intentions happen, thoughts happen, what is there for me to do? That is where all the looking is focused on. That split of doubt in actionmaking.
Same with the other senses.
I forgot to do the 'seeing or hearing or feeling' while typing to you and still colours arise, sounds and feelings on my butt and a warm feeling of the chair.
I just don't know what it is that is sitting behind the eyes. In order to say that there are colours seen, there is something that sees that. What is that?

take care and thanks.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:20 pm

hmmm, now the urge came up to drink water. Thought came to go downstairs. Going downstairs is not happening on itself because the urge is not there yet to really go downstairs. I will look into that later on when I finish typng this. Hmmmm...that was also a thought or an urge to finish writing.
Where did the thought come from? Is it you?
life itself is a miracle...

I know it conceptually. NOt directly. If I am the one who can control to take a shit whenever I want on the toiletseat, then there is no miracle.
The essential thing to look at is what is this I that is in control or not? And if that is really you.
you dont choose when the urge comes to flip according to your preferences

Yes! I could see that. I have been looking into urges lately to see if I am doing the urges. But at the last milisecond moment of the action whether it is shitting or changing a channel or raising the hand up in the air.

So I feel that if Urges/intentions happen, thoughts happen, what is there for me to do? That is where all the looking is focused on. That split of doubt in actionmaking.
Do you control the doubting or the exact moment the action does take place?
Same with the other senses.

I forgot to do the 'seeing or hearing or feeling' while typing to you and still colours arise, sounds and feelings on my butt and a warm feeling of the chair.
I just don't know what it is that is sitting behind the eyes. In order to say that there are colours seen, there is something that sees that. What is that?
Yes everything appears and disappears, what is aware of this?

Focus on this, look for this, what sees, hears and experiences, do not expect to find anything cause it is what you are, its like the eye cant see itself directly. What is the source of what you see as yourself?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby The Toe » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:50 am

The essential thing to look at is what is this I that is in control or not? And if that is really you.
Been looking all day to see if there is any control by a seperate I. In everything during the whole day. Walking is not controlled. If you would like to call that a miracle , it is....just the walking without the Toe doing anything. Same as putting on my ADIDAS-shoes. In relaxing and being effortlessness, the shoes are being put on. I am still identified with thoughts as if I am doing them. Will look into that more and more.

To see for myself that I is not the doer, there shouldn't be any control. Been doing the experiment during the whole day when there was silence of 'I am going to open my hand while it being in a fist position'. Sensations happen, intentions happen, thought happen saying 'do it' or 'now!' . A subtle holding the breath and putting attention on the movement of the muscles is happening too. Also a thought at the very end saying 'fuck it, it takes to long, do it'. ANd then....the hand is about to open but stays closed. So not sure what the I is. lol. :)
Do you control the doubting or the exact moment the action does take place?
You hit the nail right there. The heardcore assumption of the past 4 years. Great!
do not expect to find anything cause it is what you are
Don't know what I am. It still sounds like duality. Tried to reason my way into awareness, then noticing, then viewing, then 'waarnemen'...I tried to sense what this is, but nothing happens. So I am trying to feel out what I am, like as if it is an object. I am not sure what I am by being myself in daily life. There is only stuff happening sometimes, like sounds of the new age music in the background, sights of screen, moistering the lips right now, attention ot the left, silence.

Awareness and Life happening is 2. NOt 1 non dual essence. I have been thinking about this for 6 years or something but I just can;t figure it out with mind. NOt sure how you see it. Being awareness as the true essence is apart from the arising of sounds, sights and smells and movements of body.
what sees, hears and experiences
That what I seem to be 'sees' that seeing is taking place. I am 'seeing' colours being seen. Images cannot see themselves as a camera cannot see itself. It needs a 'what' to see. Forget about awareness. I try to see it. I will focus on doership for now.

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Re: I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

Postby Life » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:14 pm

The essential thing to look at is what is this I that is in control or not? And if that is really you.

Been looking all day to see if there is any control by a seperate I. In everything during the whole day. Walking is not controlled. If you would like to call that a miracle , it is....just the walking without the Toe doing anything. Same as putting on my ADIDAS-shoes. In relaxing and being effortlessness, the shoes are being put on. I am still identified with thoughts as if I am doing them. Will look into that more and more.
'What ''we'' are doing here is looking if there is such a thing as a Javier in the first place, beyond the belief that this label points to something that is really there. Test this assumption, is there the Toe in the first place to do or not do something?
To see for myself that I is not the doer, there shouldn't be any control. Been doing the experiment during the whole day when there was silence of 'I am going to open my hand while it being in a fist position'. Sensations happen, intentions happen, thought happen saying 'do it' or 'now!' . A subtle holding the breath and putting attention on the movement of the muscles is happening too. Also a thought at the very end saying 'fuck it, it takes to long, do it'. ANd then....the hand is about to open but stays closed. So not sure what the I is. lol. :)
Again there is the assumption that there is a myself or I being left totally unquestioned, not what you want to hear cause by now there is an identification of trying to fix the problem of there being a doer or not, but is there a you having a problem to fix?
Do you control the doubting or the exact moment the action does take place?

You hit the nail right there. The heardcore assumption of the past 4 years. Great!
As in is there a you? Is the assumption right?
do not expect to find anything cause it is what you are

Don't know what I am. It still sounds like duality. Tried to reason my way into awareness, then noticing, then viewing, then 'waarnemen'...I tried to sense what this is, but nothing happens. So I am trying to feel out what I am, like as if it is an object. I am not sure what I am by being myself in daily life. There is only stuff happening sometimes, like sounds of the new age music in the background, sights of screen, moistering the lips right now, attention ot the left, silence.

Awareness and Life happening is 2. NOt 1 non dual essence. I have been thinking about this for 6 years or something but I just can;t figure it out with mind. NOt sure how you see it. Being awareness as the true essence is apart from the arising of sounds, sights and smells and movements of body.
Yeah sure in words it will always sound paradoxical and dual to the mind, but are you the mind? Nothing will happen, what happens will unhappen, any change in state or experience will disappear but look further than all this, what is aware of all this? You cannot possibly reason yourself into this, that takes place with[in] the mind, look beyond mind, what is aware of mind? What is there when mind is not?

How I see it is not important, how things already are for everyone right now is, but well that in absolute sense that all that there is awareness of is taking place within and as this same awareness. And that seeing if the core assumption of a separate self is true is absolutely essential for seeing what you really are at the core beyond form, time and space.
what sees, hears and experiences

That what I seem to be 'sees' that seeing is taking place. I am 'seeing' colours being seen. Images cannot see themselves as a camera cannot see itself. It needs a 'what' to see. Forget about awareness. I try to see it. I will focus on doership for now.
Good luck with focussing on that for another 6 years or more mate ;) What is doing the focussing btw?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/


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