Want to know the Truth? Step in.

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Garsius Tyla
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Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:18 pm

Truth that liberates. Step in, introduce yourself.

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:23 pm

Hi Garsius Tyla,

My name is Ryder. I've been actively seeking enlightenment for the last year. I definitely expect enlightenment to be some sort of liberating feeling of bliss that will solve all of my problems. While meditating or looking for the self, "I" keeps jumping in to try to grab onto something.

When I say "I" to myself, I get the briefest of flashes of an image of my face, but more strongly a feeling of Ryder-ness. I feel like I get it intellectually that there is no "I", that the image and feeling that comes up is a representation of something constructed and not there, but I think the I is in the process of thinking and observing. I just started noticing that thoughts are arising without the I. I tried to consciously "use" the I to have a "directed" thought, but nothing would come up. Still, thoughts arise and I feel that they belong to me, even though the me-ness appears to be tacked onto the thought after it arises.

Thanks for your time,

Ryder

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:01 pm

Hey Rider. Lets make it.

What I would ask from you here are following:

-be brutal honest with yourself when investigating all questions you see here.
-don't use thoughts, ideas, concepts you are already carrying with you about what enlightenment, spiritual practices etc. is. Make a fresh, not conditioned look.
-drop all expectations about what this all enlightenment/awakening/liberating thing is. Often it is just subtle shift in perception about what world and life is. It is only beginning, important one, but still beginning. Passing Gateless Gate.
-post once per day, stay with me till successful end.

Does that sound fair enough?

Okey.
While meditating or looking for the self, "I" keeps jumping in to try to grab onto something.
You can never find that self, because it not exist. Simple as that. No mistery, no mystic transformation. That truth is always here, always with us.
That "I", which jumps... What is it in reality? Look at it.
but more strongly a feeling of Ryder-ness
Feelings are. Thoughts are. Faces are. Table is.
You are not.
Look around and inside - what is real? Anything what is real have a form: thought, feeling, awareness, body... all. What about that "I"? Does it have a form too?
I feel like I get it intellectually that there is no "I"
That mean you agree with idea, got a new belief. Drop it. Don't believe. Just observe, investigate, look till you realise that clearly: there is no you and never was.
I tried to consciously "use" the I to have a "directed" thought, but nothing would come up
Very good. Check one more time till you know for sure:

You don't know, what next thought will come.
You cannot thought your thoughts, they just come and go as forms.

Only thing you can do after you know that all above about your thoughts: follow them/believe those are actual "you"... or not/be free.
Still, thoughts arise and I feel that they belong to me, even though the me-ness appears to be tacked onto the thought after it arises.
Very good. Observe how thought "I" cling to every thought that is believed by you. That what "I" is for real - only label given to bunch of forms: thoughts, feelings, body... Investigate this, is it true in your case?

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:54 pm

Thanks for your help. I’ll work on sticking by your guidelines/suggestions.

(I paraphrased your questions below so I could answer them in my word processor program.)

What is the “I” that jumps in? What is it in reality?

It’s the sense of this body, primarily this face. Often there’s a flash of an image of the face or body, but there’s always a sort of feeling of Ryder-ness. I repeat the name “Ryder” over and over and all sorts of images and aspects of this character I play come up, and I can see that it’s all constructed. But there’s a difference between “Ryder” and the “I.” Perhaps it’s the belief that “Ryder” is this current/past damaged self that will be perfected after I’ve been enlightened. The I-ness thinks it will be experiencing some transformation that augments it and cures all its problems.

What is it in reality? A thought, a thought-pattern, a feeling that’s flavored all experience. It’s a filter on experience that I can’t get around, which is a little frustrating even though it makes sense. It’s flavoring everything I write here—I want to write “I” and “me” everywhere, but I’ve read enough enlightenment-type literature and discussions like these to know that I’ll be told that there is no I. And that makes me think I’ve got to wrap my mind up in some contradiction in order to break free of the I, but that’s just a belief or hypothesis.


Does the “I” have a form?

I = this body and the mind in the space inside its head, even though I know that the space I perceive is partly just the back of my eyelids. There’s this sense of thoughts coming out of the middle of my head that come from the I. But no, there doesn’t seem to be a real form.

You know, I think the image that is blinking in for a split second when I think “I” is an image of the reflection of my eyes and area around them in the mirror. A lot of the time it’s an image of my whole face in the mirror.


There is no you and never was.


Envisioning experience without the “I”...I feel like there wouldn’t be any thinking, which definitely suggests that I equate the I with the thinker.

Another thought is that what you’re saying can’t be right, because I can remember images of being in preschool, being 12-years old, riding on the subway this morning, etc. These are images...so I guess I equate the I with seeing as well.

So according to me, there is no witnessing or thought without the I.


Try thinking with the “I” again.

There’s the “I” thought, there’s broader thoughts like “I am thinking about typing on my computer”...it seems like even there there is an independent “I” thought. Tried to predict the next thought, but that wasn’t possible. Before “I” thought it it had already popped up. So the I/my prediction was after the thought. I guess I’d explain it as thoughts coming out of the unconscious...


Observe how the thought “I” clings to every thought that is believed by you. Is it true that it’s just a label given to forms?

It appears that the forms are arising within “me.” The “I” thought clings to every thought, but I seem to be convinced that it’s just a representation of thinking-within-this-body.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:42 pm

Look.

There are senses.
There are thoughts/doubts/conscious and unconscious ones
There is an awareness/attention/looking
There is a body.
All this mix is in an area (more, or less, doesn't matter for this case) of the body.
Is that "you"?
Can that all be actual you, if you can see/perceive/be aware of that all?
Look. There always must be schema like this:

Perceiver -> Perceiving -> Perceived

Perceived - thoughts, emotions, senses, awareness.

Perceiving - awareness. Yes, yes, awareness can be aware of itself. Right? Check it.

Perceiver - can you find that one, who "must" be behind awareness, that one who is aware? Don't think. Just look.

Go down with this schema:

Slowly place attention to screen, then move to hands, keyboard, body, sensation/vibration in the body, then go down to mood/feeling/emotion that is present, on thought which come and go, to attention/awareness itself, and at last to that presumed you/self/perceiver/entity behind that all... Can you find that one? Place your honest bet on looking that way.
Do that schema again and again, till you be sure it exist, or not.

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:59 pm

If I sit quietly the I gets disentangled from thoughts. Awareness doesn't seem to be the I, but its the only thing consistently present. I try to look for what/who is aware or seeking, but I can't grasp onto anything and I get frustrated. Then I think "there's no one that is aware, there's nothing to grasp onto because awareness isn't a thing," but that's a belief picked up from reading. I get frustrated and want to just surrender, but then that seems like a state I'm trying to get into. So then back to what is aware of the trying. It's tiring and I want to quit, but then I remember reading about the frustration or anger being the thing to be aware of. There's a sense of a watcher, but when looking at it doesn't reveal who it is or whether it's really there. Looking harder doesn't make sense--it seems I'm not looking in the right way or in the right direction.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:43 pm

Keep that honest mood of investigation you got now, don't evade.

You are looking in a right direction. Just look with no attention to thoughts, that arise. Try to see thought as form, not content.
Mind cannot agree, that self doesn't exist. Mind cannot work that way. It is simple fact that you cannot find that "I", because it is not there and never was. Just a belief. And belief is still there, right? You still have a belief that somewhere, somehow, that self is there, right? Let that belief be there, but look through it. It is a form, impermanent form only, it is not you. Any believer behind that belief? Look.

Frustration is a good sign. This is one of last barriers that holding you from passing gate.

You don't need to look harder, just quiet, relaxed looking without any pre-ideas.

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:04 am

I've disentangled a bit from identifying with the stream of thoughts and the feeling of the face. Starting to see the "I" as a belief, which quiets things down quite a bit.

Not sure what I should be doing other than sitting quietly. It doesn't seem possible to be aware of awareness; there doesn't seem to be anything "outside" of awareness. But it still feels like I am separate from my experience.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:40 am

Okey. Now you are in the stage, where mind begin to give up, but also bring some apathy with it. That is not good. You need to keep that fire of honest looking that had before. Just pure experience from looking here and now, what is right and what is wrong.
Avoid using things like "it seems like", "not sure", "feels like" - that is products of that mood I mentioned above. Simply look through that mood, it is just another temporary form that is here, right?
Important: work through ever question mark here.
I've disentangled a bit from identifying with the stream of thoughts and the feeling of the face.
Who is disentangled? Can you find that one who can, or cannot be disentangled? What else is there if not only thoughts, emotions, beliefs and awareness of that all? Investigate.
Starting to see the "I" as a belief, which quiets things down quite a bit.
Good. Now. Tell me how belief about "I", "self" is happening? Like there is a soup in the cattle: different ingredients ( body, thoughts, emotions, awareness ) forming different taste of soup. What forms taste of that "I"?
It doesn't seem possible to be aware of awareness; there doesn't seem to be anything "outside" of awareness.
Of course you can be aware of awareness too. Make some simple exercise: look at your both hands and play with attention. Direct it to one, then another hand. close your eyes, but keep moving your attention. You are aware of that movement of attention, right?

Awareness can be aware of everything that has ANY form, what is real. Can it be aware of that "I", "self" we are searching for?
But it still feels like I am separate from my experience
Yes. Feeling is. That feeling is most tricky. But it is just feeling, like every other feeling, thought, body - like every form you can be aware of. Any guy, that feels it, or that feeling happening by itself, when attention fall to it?
Not sure what I should be doing other than sitting quietly
Go to the nature, if you can, or park. Don't force, but try to observe without thoughts. Anything there need that "I" to happen? Observe both: forms "outside" and forms "inside". Any driver of that all, or that is just happening by itself, just life going? Even thoughts "I did that..", "I don't like this"... Does that not happen by itself too, freely? Investigate.

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:08 pm

Who is disentangled? Can you find that one who can, or cannot be disentangled? What else is there if not only thoughts, emotions, beliefs and awareness of that all? Investigate.
Awareness is disentangled. But it doesn't seem like there's anything to the self other than what you said--it appears to be a conglomeration of all those things.

Good. Now. Tell me how belief about "I", "self" is happening? Like there is a soup in the cattle: different ingredients ( body, thoughts, emotions, awareness ) forming different taste of soup. What forms taste of that "I"?
The feeling of the body (particularly the face), the perspective from my eyes, the feeling of being Ryder or at least a being of some sort, awareness of everything, even when not focused (i.e. lost in thought).
Of course you can be aware of awareness too. Make some simple exercise: look at your both hands and play with attention. Direct it to one, then another hand. close your eyes, but keep moving your attention. You are aware of that movement of attention, right?

Awareness can be aware of everything that has ANY form, what is real. Can it be aware of that "I", "self" we are searching for?
Yes. The self may have no definite form or a more complicated form, but I definitely feel aware of the self. Why can't something be aware of itself?
Yes. Feeling is. That feeling is most tricky. But it is just feeling, like every other feeling, thought, body - like every form you can be aware of. Any guy, that feels it, or that feeling happening by itself, when attention fall to it?
It's always present. I can accentuate the feeling, but it appears to be the self being aware of itself.
Go to the nature, if you can, or park. Don't force, but try to observe without thoughts. Anything there need that "I" to happen? Observe both: forms "outside" and forms "inside". Any driver of that all, or that is just happening by itself, just life going? Even thoughts "I did that..", "I don't like this"... Does that not happen by itself too, freely? Investigate.
Thoughts appear to arise by themselves, but I quickly slip back into thinking I'm directing them. I can stop or slow down thinking, but I can't consciously stop awareness. But awareness isn't the absence of thinking because I'm still aware when I'm thinking. But I'm not usually aware of the fact that I am thinking. Is it two types of awareness? If they're both thoughts, why is one so much clearer?

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:36 am

I started looking for the seeker or any trace of seeking and something happened. I was shaking a bit and there was a brief flash/spot of light (but I often see those anyway). The shaking and ominous feeling was different, but it wasn't any sort of ecstatic experience.

The "I" seems much less real--not quite sure if it's there. I keep testing myself by saying things like "I am thinking" and "I am aware." Neither statement rings with the degree of truth it did a few hours ago. I've had a half-smile on my face for the last hour, but I'm still skeptical...I'll report back later.

Lots of use of "I" in this post...it seems like a function of language though.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:18 am

Ryder,

That is happening. When someone near begins to awaken, my heart do fireworks too. But this is only an experiences, only things of mind. Realisation must be simple - there is no you.

Now - sharp focus only on one thing:

Do you exist?

In any shape, or form?

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:45 pm

The feeling of I-ness is gone. It remains as a thought, but it isn't real and there isn't any attachment to it. Saying "I am thinking" or "I am aware" seems like a thought--it doesn't have the ring of truth to it that it did before. "I" just seems like a habit at this point.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby Garsius Tyla » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:02 pm

Beautiful. Much love here.

Investigate and answer to those:

- Explain in detail what the "I" is and how it works.
- How does it feel to be liberated?


- How would you describe it to your aunt who has never heard about no "I".

Don't rush, look to the core, it is time to relax in being and be sure.

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ryder
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Re: Want to know the Truth? Step in.

Postby ryder » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:49 am

Beautiful. Much love here.

Investigate and answer to those:

- Explain in detail what the "I" is and how it works.
- How does it feel to be liberated?


- How would you describe it to your aunt who has never heard about no "I".

Don't rush, look to the core, it is time to relax in being and be sure.
1. The "I" is sort of like a placeholder in thoughts for references to this body, mind, awareness, etc. Being caught up in thought for so long made it so "I" started to seem "real." Seeing that the act of seeking itself was a type of thinking, and stepping outside of that, made the illusion of "I" as real sort of fade away.

The "I" is still there in thoughts, but it's no longer embodied and that feeling of being the "I" is gone--it seems silly really.

2. Something really upsetting happened yesterday (nothing particularly important, but nerve-wracking nonetheless. The feeling, emotion that came over me was very intense, but once I asked "Who is feeling this?" it faded away quickly, since there was no answer. I woke up today not worrying about it at all. It definitely was a feeling that was arising and not something "I" was feeling. There isn't that attachment that used to be there--in the past I would've felt a visceral feeling every time I remembered the bad experience.

But the shift was very subtle...haven't had a ton of time to let it sink it and work out all the implications. Suffering, impermanence, duality all remain, of course---still have a long way to go. But it's relieving to get past this huge stumbling block and not be so attached to things.

3. I would say that the "I" is the placeholder in thinking for all sorts of things experienced by your nervous system from the perspective of that nervous system (or whatever other euphemism for the self you want to use). Because we're all so lost in thought all the time, that "I" seems more and more real and permeates more and more of experience to the point where it's unimaginable that it isn't "real."

"Snapping out of it" involves becoming aware of all the sensations/phenomena that the self has latched onto. For me, the last holdout was the act of seeking itself.


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