Can you help "me", Ilona?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:09 am

Hi.
I really valorize the voluntary work you are doing with many people in order to propagate Liberation.
I’d like to previously apologize for any misspelling in what I could write here and elsewhere, for the fact that I’m not a native English speaker. I’m working with Google Translator in another window, but anyway excuse me if it occurs. It also takes double time to finish writing.
Let’s start with some personal story for a better understanding of what I already may be aware of…

“I” was born in Brazil 58 years ago and “I’m” still living here. “I” work 10 hours a day, Monday till Friday, as an Engineer in a project office. But “I” promise “I” will try hard to post at least once a day, as required.
Remark: For the ease of conversation the word “I” will be used to identify this body-mind set, although after years and years of spiritual seeking, the concept of the absence of a separated self has been intellectually understood, or perhaps lightly tasted. At least, however, some discomfort arises when using the word “I” in this environment.

After been born in a catholic family, since the early youth “I” started questioning and challenging that concepts of World creation, sins and punishments, Heaven and Hell, and all that stuff.
And since those times “I” began to look for new ideas and beliefs that could fulfill “my” desire for Truth.
Alternating with periods of ordinary life, “I” went through different beliefs like spiritism, rosicrucianism, esotericism, and shamanism and so on, till making contact with the meditations of Osho, an Indian master.
By doing his strong techniques of meditation then “I” could feel the taste of internal silence and peace, yet mediation does not lead to realization for itself, but it increased my longing to “get” it.
In “my” time with Osho, “I” also received a sannyas name, “Dhyan Riktam”, which means “emptiness”.
“I” lived a long period of daily practices of meditation, participation in many retreats and therapy groups, including tantric groups, rebirthing, bioenergetics and whatever “I” thought could take me closer to the Truth.
“I” also spent many weeks in India, and there “I” participate in many other retreats, meditations and groups.
After that “I” have attended satsangs with Satyaprem, a Brazilian guy that was also a former Osho’s disciple who got realized in satsangs with Dolano, a German female spiritual teacher.
Lately, with the coming of Youtube, “I” am spending hours watching movies of many spiritual teachers, like Mooji, Gangaji, Papaji, Adyashanti, Eckart Tolle, and from those teachings “I” had many special experiences, although the word “experience” doesn’t fit completely to that.
The first significant one happened about one year ago, when “I” read in Satyaprem’s blog the statement that is translated below:
“In no way it’s possible to describe the observer. By the way, not even it is possible to know it, for the observation cannot be seen, it only observes”.
For many years of meditation practices “I” was observing the body, thoughts and trying hard to “observe the observer”. In a late night, after “I” read that, “I” stood up and walked to my “smoking place” to think over that.
And there, for the first time, instead of trying to observe the observer “I” tried to BE the observer, and so… what a wonder… suddenly my mind became silent, much quieter than in any meditation “I” have done before, and there arose an immense sense of peace, a sense of “nothing is missing”, a sense of “everything was always OK”, a sense of a timeless, spaceless, shapeless and formless reality. “I” would like to stay in that place, feeling those senses for the eternity. Surely the “I” was not there, nor words were, nor concepts at all.
Since that time “I” have taken many tips from books and movies, like Adyashanti’s inquiries about “What you are”, Gangaji’s “Stop searching”, Papaji’s “Be still” and so on. All of them took me back to that peaceful space and they helped me very much. They worked as keys to open the gate and see. The problem is that “I” didn’t cross the gate so far.
Recently “I” have had more lasting experiences when “I” tried a new tip, looking at the thoughts and trying to find the “thinker” and also looking inside “me” and trying to find someone there. “I” never could find it.
Those experiences usually last some minutes but soon my mind pulls me back and takes control of my reality. Half an hour after the experience “I” might be angry, thinking on what “I” should have responded to my boss this morning, imagining things to say to my son tomorrow, and so on. “I” forget the experience very easily and all those stormy thoughts still keep burdening me.
Sometimes “I” remember everything, go to a quiet place and concentrate again, with success, mind turns silent again.
“I” can say that during the last year on very few days “I” didn’t have contact, at least for some minutes, with that silent and peaceful space.
In short, “I” might be describing some awakening traces here but surely, if so, that must be a non abiding kind of awakening.
Can you help “me”?

Thanks,

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:31 pm

Hi Riktam

Great to meet you. :) thank you for the intro.
I can see that you think that this is some kind if state, that you are looking for.

It is not about a state, rather pattern recognition. Once you recognise a pattern you can recognise it anywhere.
It's also about direct experience v imagined experience.

I can help you see, if you are ready to look for yourself and do the homework.
Fist thing and most important one is write down your inventory of expectations. This is what needs to be inspected properly with complete honesty.

So write a list, what you think seeing that there is no I at all is going to be like, what it should be like and what you want it to be, as well as what it should not be like. You get the picture- write down all ideas about awakening that you presently believe to be true.

Make a list.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:04 am

Hi Ilona,

I became very happy when I opened my post and saw your response. Thank you very much, I'm very glad for being interacting with you, Ilona.
I also see that you posted yesterday (Sunday) but only today I could read it. I'd chosen the option to be notified by e-mail but it seems that it's not working properly.

So, let's do the homework...
First thing and most important one is write down your inventory of expectations
My expectation is only one, and it's very clear:

suddenly my mind became silent, much quieter than in any meditation “I” have done before, and there arose an immense sense of peace, a sense of “nothing is missing”, a sense of “everything was always OK”, a sense of a timeless, spaceless, shapeless and formless reality. “I” would like to stay in that place, feeling those senses for the eternity. Surely the “I” was not there, nor words were, nor concepts at all.
as well as what it should not be like
Those experiences usually last some minutes but soon my mind pulls me back and takes control of my reality
Half an hour after the experience “I” might be angry, thinking on what “I” should have responded to my boss this morning, imagining things to say to my son tomorrow, and so on. “I” forget the experience very easily and all those stormy thoughts still keep burdening me

It's not a matter of an imagined experience, it's a state, and it's so perfect that I can't imagine anything different.

“I” would like to stay in that place, feeling those senses for the eternity
You get the picture- write down all ideas about awakening that you presently believe to be true
...nothing more that bringing that state to my daily life, and stop suffering.

And, proceeding...
It is not about a state, rather pattern recognition. Once you recognize a pattern you can recognize it anywhere.
I'm still wondering how that statement could help me, I imagine it's a kind of key, but I have to continue meditating on it perhaps one day more.

Love, and thank you a thousand times.

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:50 am

Hmm, looks like you are looking for a state. And all states come and go. There is no permanent state. The only permanence is that everything is in a constant flux, everything changes. So I must say you are in a wrong forum. We don't guide people into states, we guide you out of illusion that there is a you that experiences those states. Can you see a difference? Besides this has nothing to do with meditation.

When you were a kid, did you believe in any kind if magical story? I believed in Santa and when a friend told me that Santa wasn't real, I did not get into a no- Santa state, the belief was dropped and that was it!

How about you, do you remember believing in magical friends? What happened to them when you realised that it was a fantasy? What happened to you?

It's as simple as that. Now you see though a lens that there is this I , me that experiences life, that life happens to 'me'. But in reality there is no entity that life is happening to. This I can guide you to see.

But before we move on, I really need to get you to inspect your expectations.
Make a list:
1. I expect...
2. I want...

Take my tasks and questions literally. And sit with questions before answering fully.

Also read a post on how to use quote option, it's one of the anouncements above.
Looking forward to your answer.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:35 am

Good evening, Ilona.

I've used the quote function both for yours and my words. When I previewed it, there were the pink frames around both of them, but now only your words are framed. I'll try to use the Quote function above this box instead of the blue button at the top right corner of the messages, as suggested in the tutorial.
So I must say you are in a wrong forum. We don't guide people into states, we guide you out of illusion that there is a you that experiences those states. Can you see a difference? Besides this has nothing to do with meditation
Thank you for the "stick" on my head...
I see now the nonsense of trying to replicate the statuses I've had before, however wonderful and perfect they seem to be. It's all about seeing, not generating experiences.
When you were a kid, did you believe in any kind if magical story? I believed in Santa and when a friend told me that Santa wasn't real, I did not get into a no- Santa state, the belief was dropped and that was it!
How about you, do you remember believing in magical friends? What happened to them when you realized that it was a fantasy? What happened to you?
I believed in Santa till I was seven. Every Christmas' evening my mother went up to her bedroom claiming she was tired, and half an hour later my father turned off the lights keeping lit only the small lamps on the Xmas tree.
Minutes later a bearded and red dressed Santa was coming down the stairs, coughing a lot and claiming he had a cold, and then he distributed the gifts for me, for my sister and for my father. He also never forgot to leave a gift to my mother "when she wakes up".
I can't say that the belief only was dropped when I realized it was a lie. I was sad for the reason that never more I was going to live those magic moments, the timidity for meeting Santa, the expectation of opening my gift trying to guess what it was, the smell of fresh pine of the tree and all my childhood's dreams...
But this is only my character's story, I perfectly understand that when I see the untruth of something, the idea dissolves itself and loses all its significance.

Let's go ahead.
But before we move on, I really need to get you to inspect your expectations.
Make a list:
1. I expect...
2. I want...
Take my tasks and questions literally. And sit with questions before answering fully.


Ilona, until today, as you noticed, I was wanting to make statuses permanent. I've read your post and I dropped that.
I sat with your questions during the day and the best what I answered to myself is set below.

First, what I want:

- I want to see the Truth, what for me, means dropping illusions;
- I want to realize the absence of a separated self;
- I want to see my true nature;
- I want to be what I really am.

With those wishes I expect:

- End of suffering;
- A better and meaningful life without deceptions;

Hope I answered the way you expected me to do, although I understand that only the "I" wants anything.

Love,

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:34 pm

hi Riktam,

thank you for answer.
First, what I want:

- I want to see the Truth, what for me, means dropping illusions;
- I want to realize the absence of a separated self;
- I want to see my true nature;
- I want to be what I really am.

With those wishes I expect:

- End of suffering;
- A better and meaningful life without deceptions;
that is better.
ok, illusions do not drop, they are seen for what they are- illusions. nothing changes other then the view.
the true nature is not yours, as there is no you. that means there is no your true nature..
you already are what you are. but there is confusion that you are this separate entity.
suffering does not end with seeing though illusion. but it is a start of dissolving the sufferer. and there is freedom not from experiences but within experiences. expecting all suffering to end is expecting happy ending. but hey, life goes on. and when you see that suffering has nowhere to stick it no longer feels that it's yours.
seeing through illusion does not add meaning to life. it actually strips it down. life does not become better or worse, the character does not change, all is seen differently, that's all.

at this point it is best to leave ALL expectations right here and take a fresh look. we can come back to them later.

next step, write to me what comes up as it comes up when you consider this seriously.

there is no separate self at all, no i, me, that is a manager and controller of life and this body. none at all as in zero.

what feelings and thoughts show up here?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:50 pm

Ilona,

Thank you for showing the misunderstandings that are embedded in my expectations. There is a matter of point of view I guess, for I'm still seeing things from the self's side.

At this point it is best to leave ALL expectations right here and take a fresh look. we can come back to them later.
Next step, write to me what comes up as it comes up when you consider this seriously.

I'm ready to leave them. And I am OK when considering this seriously, ready even to just live my ordinary life while messaging with you daily, and see what happens, without expecting anything.

There is no separate self at all, no i, me, that is a manager and controller of life and this body. None at all as in zero.
What feelings and thoughts show up here?

Some fear!
If I'm not controlling life and this body, they are masterless or someone else must be controlling them, and this makes me feel lost and scared because I still cannot see that I may be the puppeteer instead of the puppet.
And when I think I am the puppet and I'm not in control, what may happen to this body? Throw myself somewhere? Kill somebody? Hurting people? That idea really scares me.
Should I surrender? Trust? But... WHO surrenders and trusts?

Love,

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:00 pm

Ok, you are not a puppet. No. You don't exist at all. There is no puppet that is controlled by puppeteer, there is only a play that plays out by itself spontaneously. No one is in control as all is happening codependently with arising situations. Consider that. Now look around. Take a slow gaze around the room. Then continue to read.

Did you move your eyes, or head turned and there was looking around happening? What happened first- head turning or thinking about it? Can you say that it was your choice to look around or not? Could it have been different?

In your direct experience right now, is there an I that is reading this? How do you know?
If you had to touch it with finger, where would the finger land?

Write what comes up.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:26 am

Ok, you are not a puppet. No. You don't exist at all. There is no puppet that is controlled by puppeteer, there is only a play that plays out by itself spontaneously. No one is in control as all is happening codependently with arising situations.
Thank you, Ilona.
Now look around. Take a slow gaze around the room. Then continue to read.
Did you move your eyes, or head turned and there was looking around happening? What happened first- head turning or thinking about it? Can you say that it was your choice to look around or not? Could it have been different?
First I read you saying to me to look around before continuing to read.
I avoided reading the next words, closed my eyes and decided to gaze around, visualizing what direction I would look first.
So there was a previous choice and the gazing followed it.
But often, in other moments, spontaneous looking around do happen, I admit. So in unguided actions it could happen differently more easily.
In your direct experience right now, is there an I that is reading this? How do you know?
If you had to touch it with finger, where would the finger land?
Sincerely..
I cannot be unaware of a text being read and also a reader doing it. I clearly perceive both at this moment.
And when i think in touching the reader, my finger is attracted to the center of my chest, at the height of the heart.
I'm feeling very present right now.

Love,

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:22 pm

Thank you for answer. Ok, look, is there a breather? The one that does the breathing, or breathing is just happening?
Is there a gap between breather, breath and breathing? Are you doing it?

How about walking?
Is there a walker when you walk?
When you scratch an itch, is there a scratcher?
Peer?

Can you see that all these subjects are labels, and labels don't do anything. They are labels.

Now go back to the reader, what is more true in your experience, that it is I that is reading this of there is reading happening?

Can you touch a reader? A breather? See again.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:07 am

Thank you. Let's continue, Ilona...
Ok, look, is there a breather? The one that does the breathing, or breathing is just happening?
Is there a gap between breather, breath and breathing? Are you doing it?
Most of the time breathing happens, unless in certain situations when I can take control of it, like if you tell me to take a deep breath.
Most of the time there isn't any gap and nobody's doing it, as well as nobody is doing the heart beating, nor doing hair and nails growing, and so on.
How about walking?
Is there a walker when you walk?
When I choose a target place to go right now, walking starts to happen, maybe only the first step is necessary to be done.
When you scratch an itch, is there a scratcher?
Peer?
Often the scratching begins before noticing the itch.
Can you see that all these subjects are labels, and labels don't do anything. They are labels.
I already understood that they are labels and often we keep satisfied by knowing the name of a thing (like "apple"), as if knowing the name signifies knowing what the thing really is.
But even understanding it, it's difficult to overcome that habit.
Now go back to the reader, what is more true in your experience, that it is I that is reading this of there is reading happening?
"There is a reading happening" is more important, and also it was the only thing that happened all the time. The reader was perceived mainly when looking to your question about the existence of a reading person.
Can you touch a reader? A breather? See again.
Tonight those things are much more abstract and difficult to define.

=======================================

Ilona, there are two things I'd like to tell you

- My first messages were full of dreamy concepts and you called my attention for that.
Now I try to be concentrated when writing to you in order to assure that I'll be answering exactly what you asked. I'm afraid this attitude may difficult a little bit if I am required to perceive subtler things.

- In my particular case, as a non-native English speaker - although I have a good fluency, I still have to consult sometimes a translator device in order to avoid using a not applicable word, so there is a delay between the moment I read your message and got an answer, and the moment I finalize my written answer. Sometimes when finalizing I feel that at that moment the answer could be a little different. But there's no way to prevent that, and I have to accustom myself to that.

=============================

Love,

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:40 am

Hi Riktam,

I'm not native English speaker either and I will use simple words with you. When you answer, only send the message when you can stand by every word, only when it feels 100% true. And don't worry that this changes- mind is processing. So whatever feels right at the time of answering is the right answer.

Ok, so you say that breathing happens by itself, unless you focus on it and it seems that you are in control. Take a deep breath now.

Is it you that took the deep breath or the system responded as it did first, then thoughts about it claimed the doership?
Did you become a breather in that moment? Or was it just thoughts about it? And when you walk, the fist steps, how do you make them? Is it like a car that needs to be ignited, or they too just happen? Watch as it happens.

Don't stop on maybe, look for yourself until it's clear. Start walking, is it you that makes first steps? Or it just a habitual thought saying that? Is there a walker if there is no thought about that?


What is not on automatic? Where do you use your power of control? Is there free will? How does it work?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:40 pm

Hi, Ilona.

I don't know why I thought you were English. So, what other language can you communicate?
OK, so you say that breathing happens by itself, unless you focus on it and it seems that you are in control. Take a deep breath now.
Is it you that took the deep breath or the system responded as it did first, then thoughts about it claimed the doership? Did you become a breather in that moment? Or was it just thoughts about it?
It's amazing that today, when I finish reading your request to take a deep breath, the deep breath was already happening. No need of further answer on it, I surrender.

I see that this process is about demolishing my beliefs, stone by stone. And I like it.

And when you walk, the fist steps, how do you make them? Is it like a car that needs to be ignited, or they too just happen? Watch as it happens.

Speaking on cars, last night I went to my son's house and I noticed that after choosing where to go, it seems that the car goes by its own. But when I was at the driver's school it was not that easy.
I always notice many things that are done automatically, but never assigning it to the absence of the self. I always assigned it to unawareness, like do many methods in spiritual teachings that tell us things like "watch your steps", "watch your breathing" and so on.
I think that the brain learns a task and after that it trains the animal part (the body), which learns it the same way a dog learns tricks like "sit", "play dead", etc. And it becomes automatic after that.

Don't stop on maybe, look for yourself until it's clear. Start walking, is it you that makes first steps? Or it just a habitual thought saying that? Is there a walker if there is no thought about that? What is not on automatic?

I consider my homework is not only answering your messages but also investigate them at the following day.
I have to admit that there's no record in my mind of any "made" first step, at least on the recent days.

Yes, I see walking happening without a walker and sometimes I feel as I was a passenger, however I can't identify any part of the body I was. Today I was walking from the office to the restaurant and, like that previous limitless feeling I told you before, I felt like I was walking "through" an immense "myself" (no imagination, there was no previous thought). It's awesome.

Where do you use your power of control? Is there free will? How does it work?

I have to tell I'm not sure anymore of those concepts, let me try an example that you can help me to interpret...
Last year I was over-weighted and I decided to lose 10 kg. I started a hard low calories diet and an exercise program with jogging and fitness and after about 5 months I could lose 10 kg. How did this relate to power, control and will?


Next stone...
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6175
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:28 pm

Hm, did you decided? Whate were the options, wasn't that choice the only one possible? Could you have chosen otherwise?
That is- choices happen all the time. See if it's in your control or it's just thoughts that say that.
What is that I that makes choices?

Are labels 'I choose' and 'choice is happening' pointing to the same action of choosing?
Does I choose happen differently from I breathe?

Oh yeah, keep looking. Getting close.
And notice that this too is happening on automatic.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Riktam
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 am
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:45 am

Hi, Ilona.

I meant that last year, whoever did the choice, if I just let go of control and wait "diet to happen", I'm sure it wouldn't. Going to self-service restaurants every day and seeing beautiful cakes smiling for me, looking trough the window and seeing that's raining at my jogging time... So it was hard and if I hadn't some "will" certainly I would keep over-weighted. See what I mean?
Are labels 'I choose' and 'choice is happening' pointing to the same action of choosing?
Yes I agree.
Does I choose happen differently from I breathe?
I don't have to put options on a scales and preview what could happen in each case when I breath. Or even using visualization to breathe.
I'm saying that those things may happen at the same way, I don't refuse the idea, but for simpler things like walking, reading, breathing, it's easier to see things happening. Choice is deeper.
Oh yeah, keep looking. Getting close.
And notice that this too is happening on automatic.
OK, I'll look my choices tomorrow.

Love,

Riktam.
==================================
Riktam
https://www.facebook.com/LibertacaoDesencadeada


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests