Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

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Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby Chris7 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:00 pm

Hi leelotschka

Thanks for contacting me via PM, it will be a pleasure to work with you should you still wish. So, welcome and let’s get started.

First of all to set out our agreement in order for us to get the greatest benefit from this:

Please be 100% honest with all your answers.

Please refrain from reading or participating in any other spiritual practices.

Please try and post everyday.


And here a couple of questions to begin with:

If you wish please tell me a little about yourself and what brought you here?

What are your own expectations of liberation?


How would you like me to refer to you in this thread? (I know I use your real name in PM but would you prefer I use your LU name here?).

Happy beginnings

Chris

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:14 pm

Hi leelotschka


If you wish please tell me a little about yourself and what brought you here?

What are your own expectations of liberation?


Chris
Hi Chris,
You can call me Leelah here
If you wish please tell me a little about yourself and what brought you here?
From I was a baby I was abused by a Jekyll and Hyde father.Later there was group rapes as 4 year old and another crazy group when I was 6. Much is forgotten/split off, much is processed and forgiven - and the strong process with psychotic episodes through much of my youth taught me to look for help by Something stronger than me. So I started to talk to God, into my little recorder in bed - and he answered. The Love that flowed form this guide, and the explanations and methods he taught me saved my mind, and started a 30 year long exploration of what evil is - how it is created - and out of all of this I learned that there are only two feelings: love and fear - fear is not real,. and Love is.
Love - or God/Spirit - has led me to all the trainings that I have done -Kaballah, Sufism, Buddhism to mention some -and Love also has lead me to all the teachers I find on the web - and now, LU.
When I am in agony at night - which still happens frequently - I can always find peace and clarity and connection when I ask God for help. It seems to be more and more simple: to simply KNOW that I am connected to truth/Spirit and rest in It, and allow healing to happen.
Still, this method speaks to me - and the “me” is starting to dissolve - or should I say, I am starting to just notice it and not take it so serious. It seems, thought, that there are some “me-fragments” that are vastly repressed and dissociated - and sometimes - today - they seem to “take me over” and wham I am completely identified with tortured victim.
I know I shall come to this from scratch. I will do my best to read you with new eyes 
What are your own expectations of liberation?
That I shall be able to know that the “me” is not who I am- that I can live permanently in a state of mind without being driven by a “me.” I know that I still will be visited by what needs to be healed - but with liberation I hope I will be able to do that in a dis-identified way.

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:54 pm

---and as soon as I posted this, fullblown terror happened. I allowed it to be, an asked for help, and 20 minutes later, it has abated ca 90%.
There is something in "me", i think,. that thinks that "it" cannot speak with God/Spirit anylonger when doing this -

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby Chris7 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:30 pm

Hi Leelah

Thank you so much for your honesty and your braveness in detailing your early life. I cannot even begin to imagine how deeply traumatic this must have been for you. My love goes out to you.

I am pleased to see you found some solace in God and realised that love is all there is. Yes, it is amazing how life unfolds and you are led where life leads you. And of course that is what we are doing here in finding there is no ‘you’ that can do anything and life is just life experiencing itself as life.

Awakening can happen in many different ways, the most common is what is what LU term going through the Gateless Gate, and is sometimes termed, ‘entering the stream’, this is the progressive way and is all we seek here. It could be different and much more intense but we are not expecting any fireworks just a ‘knowing’ that there is no ‘self’ in reality. And to accept the ‘me’ you mentioned may come back in fragments and in different situations, and that is why we have aftercare in LU as we are only looking for a beginning of awakening.

It is possible, and often the case that terror and fear arises in losing the ‘I’ but it is usually a case of expectations that the self will be annihilated and is just the ego doing its job of ensuring survival. It is also possible that after seeing through the illusion that some deep-seated issues may come to the surface to be cleared once and for all. And, on the other hand it may be a very gentle falling process post-gate.

Of course, my role is not to teach but to guide asking questions and reflecting back your answers in order for you to see for yourself, so that you know by direct experience that the ‘I’ you believe is you is just an illusion - a 100% lie.
So, let’s continue this with a some questions:

1. Are you the body?
2. Are you the thoughts?
3. Does the body need a 'you' for it to function, to control it?
4. Do your thoughts need a 'you' for them to happen?
5. If the answer is yes for any of these, we'll explore that further in the next posts. If the answer is no, where else do you think or feel the 'I' resides?

Much love

Chris

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:56 pm

before I answer these questions, I will add this to my last post:

Have I understood this correctly, Chris?
no more asking for help from Spirit?
that seems...scary....or more than that ...
I have no problems not reading the Course while we work together- but when agony and terror arises in the night, i don't know how it is possible to come through it and not be sucked into it, if i don't ask for help - which always has helped me. It feels like letting go of "Jesus'"-hand - or the link to truth - and then, all is terror.

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:32 pm

It is possible, and often the case that terror and fear arises in losing the ‘I’ but it is usually a case of expectations that the self will be annihilated and is just the ego doing its job of ensuring survival.
That was very helpful. yes of course it is just ego. BUT I asked for help, and at once I felt the necessary distance from the terror so i could just sit with it instead of being sucked into it.
It is also possible that after seeing through the illusion that some deep-seated issues may come to the surface to be cleared once and for all. And, on the other hand it may be a very gentle falling process post-gate.
Depp-seated issues came up this night too: a statue- or "dead" "person came to life - I perceived it as something incredibly scary, as a corpse coming to life...i ran out of the house and yelled for help - but the corpse was not menacing, just seemed very alien. After waking up and asking for help, it felt like there were lots of loving "voices" around me talking to me, reminding me that this was just something I had thought I had "killed off" in my self/mind, and now it just rose to remind it to love and accept it instead. It took some 30 minutes, I released the "job" to Love and allowed it to be integrated/included. And now it feels like a healing: it is only the old habit of child-resistance. And no wonder.
Of course, my role is not to teach but to guide asking questions and reflecting back your answers in order for you to see for yourself, so that you know by direct experience that the ‘I’ you believe is you is just an illusion - a 100% lie.
Yes. That feels good.
So, let’s continue this with a some questions:
1. Are you the body?
No, not at all. Still, it seems that I feel a strong ownership to it: I will not allow somebody to hurt it or be disrespectful toward it. I will not subject it to be misused. It still feels like MINE and i feel very protective around it - no wonder :-)

2. Are you the thoughts?

No. It seems that the thoughts come out of memories connected to the me that was created as soon as the insanity started, where I have learned that i split/dissociated/fragmented into many many "personalities."
3. Does the body need a 'you' for it to function, to control it?
Hmm. This seems complicated to answer. I work with energy-medicine, and when it is in pain, I use methods which I can help it heal. And more often than not they are effective. It certainly feels like "I" am needed for it to heal, by my willingness to acknowledge the pain and be with it without judgment, and finding the thoughts that are behind the pain. By this communication - which i have had the last 30 years - I have become a good friend of the body, and have learned how this mind is screwed together. So it really seems like my body needs me for it to function in a healing way. I also teach these method of communication with mind7body to clients.
4. Do your thoughts need a 'you' for them to happen?
"it" says no. Not at all. This "It" is what I call Spirit Inner guide. I don't doubt it at all. And there are big resistance to this "no" from ego of course. So what else is new
5. If the answer is yes for any of these, we'll explore that further in the next posts. If the answer is no, where else do you think or feel the 'I' resides?
It depends on which I you are referring to. If you are talking about the personality/me/self, the concept of it resides in my mind. If you are talking about the "big " I = Love, it is experienced as our true essence - my experience of it is like a sea of love where all is included, and always has been.Eternal, timeless. My "me" likes to jump out of that essence( or believes that is possible) - somehow she has difficulty letting go of her suffering identity :-)

Oh and yes, I will tell you that I worked with Ilona some weeks ago. I was at a very different place then, and met her with my thoughts and beliefs. I also knew that time that the label I was NOT I - and for some minutes was through the gate, all was clear. Then, snap, I was back. Our work had to stop. Then I started to show LU to 3 friends - one of them is the magnificent Shell - all of them are now liberated. By following Shell's process here, and mailing her about the process ( we are both students/teachers of a Course in Miracles) something shifted in me - I now see that this is nothing I must understand, just experience, and i feel ready in a completely different way.
Its late now, i will go to bed. Look forward to the next step. Feeling joy right now, the inner smile is huge.


Much love

Chris

Love to you
Leelah

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:03 pm

Dearest Chris,

It is amazing how the fear is not believable any longer to me. Just ego doing its work.

The night started with intense intense tensions and impossible to sleep. Something inside reminded me that “this is simple. Just allow it to be easy. Allow the process, the momentum, to carry you.” So I invited the terror to stay with me.I listened to what it had to say, it was connected to a chronic pain in the lung/chest-area. As I allowed it to just BE, the heart started fluttering and pounding, skipping beats. A sweet feeling of tenderness enveloped it, held it. After 4 hours or so I fell asleep and had this dream:

I am together with a huge crowd of people - 2000?20000? The atmosphere is a feeling, impression, of a shift of immense importance for the whole world ( which could well be the world of “me”.)The crowd has come together to join this shift, this work.

I have an ally there (Hi, Chris) - we are taking care of the food for the two of us.:-)

We are now all in the same room. A woman is talking from the stage,feverishly, about how dangerous this is and how impossibly hard this is to do.She is the voice for separation. The crowd takes no notice of her. Then she stands right in front of me, her back to me, talking desperately to herself about the impossibility of going through this. She then turns to me for support, and I say - again and again and again loud and clear to her: “There is nobody her who does not see how hard this is for you.” I look her in the eyes and repeat it until I see that she hears me, and receives the compassion. She stops speaking, and I see that the truth seeps into her mind. As I write this down now, it seems that she played the role of suffering victim- “my” main identity “this life.” I am seeing that her role slides of her: she has seen clearly that it IS a role.

The crowd is now outside the building again. There is a unified decision in the crowd - that we hold the momentum of connection to truth, and don’t allow any opposing force to separate us. But right now, we cannot find any opposing force at all. Still it is clear that it is a possibility - but only if we allow ourselves to listen to silliness and take it seriously.

At this time in the dream, I am confused about which year we are in - is it 2012 or 2013?

*

Sometime yesterday,a decision was made - to commit to this fully. It may have happened when I mailed my friend and co-student of ACIM, Shell, who also was guided by you, and she reminded me that I had promised to be completely honest and transparent here - and I felt “Of course!” and I added here what I had written to her - how scared I was.

I am writing down here what I spoke into my recorder in the night/morning:

The pressure and tension in the chest and whole torso is immense.”I” am seeing the crowd as the zillion of fragments “I” split into and dissociated as baby/child/youth -now come together to listen to truth instead of the constant threats from ego.The feeling of the crowd is a unified trust in the leader - and the leader is truth, “who” speaks from union and not separation. We all recognize truth the second it is spoken. It is Home, it’s not a place, it is a recognition of our true nature.

What is beautiful now is SEEING this seeming multitude of “me’s”, and while seeing it, realizing that it is a construct that is the process of being subjected to truth. There is a watching of this all -and right now (in the night)this watching feels like it is positioned as me. Right now language is experienced as such a clumsy tool for conveying what I am experiencing: I see that I am just at this point in time where this understanding is “placed” (oh god its clumsy.)

From this “place” I see that “me” is just a condensed point in “time” - which also, from this view, is seen as a silly attempt to separate what it impossible to separate. Something that thinks it is possible to position itself in something called time, and that it is REAL.I see oh how necessary this seems is in the world of special “me’s.”

It’s just stories.

Seeing clearly now that “me” is impossibility and a story -and I also see and feel how much I love this I and what she has grown into because of believing in the story and taking it for real. I appreciate the journey to this point of clarity - and since there is no time in reality, it is seen that there was no journey at all, just a willingness to be wrong about everything about this separated me, all its values and concepts and ideas about the world and its separateness.

It feels very enjoyable to speak these words into the recorder and allow them to come. It dawns that a shift has already happened. I am aware of the truth all this is coming from, in all its clumsy expressions - and that “I” might be wobbling a while until it stabilizes. There is a fear that says I might just be stuck in hell again - and I notice the thought, and an attraction into hell again.

While I am speaking these words, the constant painful tension behind my eyes is releasing as a gush of tears from both eyes. The release melts down into the neck and throat too, as tensions are seen as not necessary protection any longer.

There is an intense gratitude at knowing "itself" to be connected to this inner guidance and truth, which has been here all my life, available when “I” have chosen not to believe in fear.

It is also seen that there IS no other places than HERE. Everything else is a construct and illusion. And at the same time, enjoying the whole PLAY of it all: when “me” is absent, joy is here -as I frequently feel in the creative process as an artist.

This morning I listened to a taped program. A man talked about his passion for church-bells. He visited a craftsman who mold bells. He learns that the tone is already in the material - and that the material must meet someone in whose hands this tone can be liberated.

Love

Leelah

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby Chris7 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:09 pm

Hi leelah

Thank you so very much for your last post, it is truly beautiful, really beautiful and I am honoured you shared that with me.

What I would like to do though is address your previous post as I believe it will be of great benefit to well and truly nail this ‘I’ illusion once and for all. Your understanding now is of such value that it will be a much simpler process. I hope you don’t think I’m dismissing what you wrote in the last post, because I’m not, but if you would indulge me I am sure you will see the long term benefit :-)

Here goes then:
Have I understood this correctly, Chris?
no more asking for help from Spirit?
that seems...scary....or more than that ...
I have no problems not reading the Course while we work together- but when agony and terror arises in the night, i don't know how it is possible to come through it and not be sucked into it, if i don't ask for help - which always has helped me. It feels like letting go of "Jesus'"-hand - or the link to truth - and then, all is terror.
Asking for help during periods of terror is not a problem. The important thing here is to look and see who or what is this ‘I’ that is asking for help?


That was very helpful. yes of course it is just ego. BUT I asked for help, and at once I felt the necessary distance from the terror so i could just sit with it instead of being sucked into it.
Again check out this ‘I’. Fear/terror can arise but for whom does it arise. As it arises and ‘you’ are sat with it, it will disappear. Fear is a thought (when you are able to sit with it and look underneath it) whether from the past, present or as a future projection. If you look at a thought you will see the thought is real, it’s content not. Even if it is a thought of a traumatic event, the event WAS real, the content of the thought about is just a tape looping, it has no reality now. The ‘I’ is the same, a thought, a very deeply conditioned idea, but only a thought, with no reality. It is also, of course, reinforced by the conventions of language.


Depp-seated issues came up this night too: a statue- or "dead" "person came to life - I perceived it as something incredibly scary, as a corpse coming to life...i ran out of the house and yelled for help - but the corpse was not menacing, just seemed very alien. After waking up and asking for help, it felt like there were lots of loving "voices" around me talking to me, reminding me that this was just something I had thought I had "killed off" in my self/mind, and now it just rose to remind it to love and accept it instead. It took some 30 minutes, I released the "job" to Love and allowed it to be integrated/included. And now it feels like a healing: it is only the old habit of child-resistance. And no wonder.

What you find after liberation, after awakening from the lie of a ‘self’ is that these things will rise to fall away. Because at the moment you take them to be personal, to belong to a separate individual, but once you know, for sure, that there is no ‘you’ then they can be released. I’m not saying it will be easy, or indeed comfortable, but as this is a beginning of awakening, not the end, the ‘falling’ after going through the Gate could well encompass this. Although it is difficult to say what will happen as it is different for every person.


No, not at all. Still, it seems that I feel a strong ownership to it: I will not allow somebody to hurt it or be disrespectful toward it. I will not subject it to be misused. It still feels like MINE and i feel very protective around it - no wonder :-)
In which case, if you are ‘not at all your body’ whose body is it?

Remember, we are a very complex expression of consciousness/God where sensations are felt where ownership and care is felt for the body, without an ‘I’ this continues. The vital thing here is not to try and attach an ‘I’ where you don’t find one.


No. It seems that the thoughts come out of memories connected to the me that was created as soon as the insanity started, where I have learned that i split/dissociated/fragmented into many many "personalities.
That’s good but again, keep an eye on the ‘I’ make sure if you don’t find it in direct experience that you don’t make a subtle shift and place the ‘I’ somewhere else, into a different concept. The ego would be more than happy to allow that to happen.


Hmm. This seems complicated to answer. I work with energy-medicine, and when it is in pain, I use methods which I can help it heal. And more often than not they are effective. It certainly feels like "I" am needed for it to heal, by my willingness to acknowledge the pain and be with it without judgment, and finding the thoughts that are behind the pain. By this communication - which i have had the last 30 years - I have become a good friend of the body, and have learned how this mind is screwed together. So it really seems like my body needs me for it to function in a healing way. I also teach these method of communication with mind7body to clients.
Look deeper, see if you can see where everything that happens does so without the need of a separate controller/manager. For example:

W ho manages your body whilst you sleep?
Who is it that decides to turn from laying on your side to your back (for example) while you are in deep sleep?
Who wakes ‘you’ up?
Who chooses ‘your’ dreams?
Who breathes for ‘you’ and carries out all the thousandths of functions to keep ‘you’ alive while you sleep?
Where are ‘you’ while you are in dreamless sleep?
When ‘you decide to walk from the bedroom to the bathroom, who controls the walking? Is it ‘you’ that gives direction the legs as in: left leg up, left leg down, left foot to floor…?


"it" says no. Not at all. This "It" is what I call Spirit Inner guide. I don't doubt it at all. And there are big resistance to this "no" from ego of course. So what else is new
Again, beware of the subtlety of promoting the ‘I’ to another role.


I now see that this is nothing I must understand, just experience, and i feel ready in a completely different way.
This is perfectly true it is not an intellectual understanding we are after but to see directly through the illusion. I’m so pleased you are now in a better place to take this on and am confident that as you look deeply into the questions above and notice how subtle the concept of ‘I’ can become you will sprint through the Gate.
Keep in mind we are not seeking annihilation here, just ‘knowing’ the ‘I’ does not exist AT ALL!


Its late now, i will go to bed. Look forward to the next step. Feeling joy right now, the inner smile is huge.
Excellent :-)

Much love

Chris

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:17 pm

Asking for help during periods of terror is not a problem. The important thing here is to look and see who or what is this ‘I’ that is asking for help?
The I that is asking for help is the role of the victim. I know it when i ask for help - and are you saying that instead of asking for help, I should look for "who" is asking? - doing that now...it seems that it is fear - wanting to be comforted - confused here -
Again check out this ‘I’. Fear/terror can arise but for whom does it arise. As it arises and ‘you’ are sat with it, it will disappear. Fear is a thought (when you are able to sit with it and look underneath it) whether from the past, present or as a future projection. If you look at a thought you will see the thought is real, it’s content not. Even if it is a thought of a traumatic event, the event WAS real, the content of the thought about is just a tape looping, it has no reality now. The ‘I’ is the same, a thought, a very deeply conditioned idea, but only a thought, with no reality. It is also, of course, reinforced by the conventions of language.
When you explain about the content of thought and that the thoughts are just stories about it, that is my experience too. When the fear comes, though, there is release each time I include it and don't wish it to go away - and also know deep within that it is not real, that it cannot really hurt.
What you find after liberation, after awakening from the lie of a ‘self’ is that these things will rise to fall away. Because at the moment you take them to be personal, to belong to a separate individual, but once you know, for sure, that there is no ‘you’ then they can be released. I’m not saying it will be easy, or indeed comfortable, but as this is a beginning of awakening, not the end, the ‘falling’ after going through the Gate could well encompass this. Although it is difficult to say what will happen as it is different for every person.
In my last post, the last part of it, this is what i experienced too: in that state of mind, there was absolute certainty that there is no "me" - or "you". And releases happen, as described.
Then - after some hours today - there seems to be a falling back into the old and known patterns and identities - but also, as an accompaniment, the knowledge that these patterns can be there now, I just don't take them as serious as before.
In which case, if you are ‘not at all your body’ whose body is it?
Yes :-) it is nobody's - and the brain knows that, but something inside screems NO! it is nobodyelses!
Remember, we are a very complex expression of consciousness/God where sensations are felt where ownership and care is felt for the body, without an ‘I’ this continues. The vital thing here is not to try and attach an ‘I’ where you don’t find one.
Something inside knows what you are talking about. I drop it inside, I don't want to try to understand it, but let it work inside and see what happens.
That’s good but again, keep an eye on the ‘I’ make sure if you don’t find it in direct experience that you don’t make a subtle shift and place the ‘I’ somewhere else, into a different concept. The ego would be more than happy to allow that to happen.
Chris, when i read the above my mind goes haywire to try to understand how it shall look. I think that real simple questions - one after one - will feel less threatening - cause what "I" hear is an inner command to HAVE to understand what you are saying or else - "I" am in disaster-mood again. And then fear comes between me and clear seeing. - The questions below are perfect - no fear-inducing there.
Look deeper, see if you can see where everything that happens does so without the need of a separate controller/manager. For example:

W ho manages your body whilst you sleep?
I "see" kind "beings", guides, angels.
Who is it that decides to turn from laying on your side to your back (for example) while you are in deep sleep?
I haven't been in deep sleep for at least 30 years, as far as I know. I wake up from the slightest sound, sleep for a short while/dreaming and wake up again, many times through the night. I wish I could see that nobody/nothing does that - that is the right answer,isnt it - but i do see protecting "somethings"
Who wakes ‘you’ up?
Inner constant fear-thoughts telling me I am in danger and need to watch out
Who chooses ‘your’ dreams?
Taking the last described dream as an example, I don't know what or who - I only know that the dreams always point out things that either needs healing/releasing or confirm that I have taken a good choice. Using the I here only for communication purposes.
Who breathes for ‘you’ and carries out all the thousandths of functions to keep ‘you’ alive while you sleep?
life
Where are ‘you’ while you are in dreamless sleep?
forces i have no idea what are
When ‘you decide to walk from the bedroom to the bathroom, who controls the walking? Is it ‘you’ that gives direction the legs as in: left leg up, left leg down, left foot to floor…?
...
Again, beware of the subtlety of promoting the ‘I’ to another role.
What I experience as Love is felt deeply.There is no doubt about it. It is formless,it is eternal and true, and is no role. "I" make roles.
Keep in mind we are not seeking annihilation here, just ‘knowing’ the ‘I’ does not exist AT ALL!
Yes, thankfully I know that - it will never be annihilated, just related to in a different way - as i experienced - and when i woke up from that dream - and now I seem to be back to the usual. Not feeling seen and accepted, feeling misunderstood, can't seem to get across to you what I mean. Ego is having a ball. What is most frustrating is knowing that i give the "wrong" answers, and that it feels very very challenging to write what i see/experience - it brings out tons of fear in the body/mind.

Chris, tomorrow i will be traveling for many hours, visiting somebody in another part of the country. I will try to come here and work, but am not sure if I will be too tired.

Heavy tiredness now - probably resistance -
but still trusting the process

warm hug
Leelah

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:11 pm

I am going to bed now, Chris - long day tomorrow -
thanks for being there and doing this
may I ask that you do it really really simple, and take time with just a few questions for seeing in each post? Overwhelm is crashing in - a deep feeling of doing everything wrong - to whom? I will go to bed with that, and that seems like good work and enough
love
leelah

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby Chris7 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:14 pm

Hi Leelah

Thank you for pointing me in the direction you preferred to be guided, that is a tremendous help.

There are no right or wrong answers, only answers. It really isn’t a test of your knowledge.

Please be assured you are not doing anything wrong :-)

When I am asking you questions it is not always to elicit an answer each time, but in order for you to look inside. All we are aiming to achieve here is you being able to see for yourself that there is no ‘self’ that exists in reality.

For example, when I ask who is it that walks, this was not intended for you to necessarily give an answer but more importantly for you to discover for yourself, as you go about your daily business, that it actually happens all by itself and there is no ‘you’ giving instructions.

I do apologise for causing you anxiety with my approach and will change it from now on.

Also, I did not mean to suggest you do not ask for help. Of course, if it helps to soothe you then ask for help. What I tried (perhaps clumsily) to say was also notice who is actually the one who does the asking. That is, is there actually a separate ‘I’ that requests help.

There is no need to respond to any of the above.


So, what we need to do now is get back to basics and look only to see if there is an ‘I’ that is operating as a separate individual that is managing/controlling Leelah.

I appreciate you have already answered these following questions, but this time answer only YES or NO. Please trust me on this, I have a new plan of attack.

1. In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the body?
2. In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the brain?
3. In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the mind?
4. In your direct experience are ‘you’ your thoughts?

If your answers are the same as before I expect you will answer ‘no’ to all of them. If however, you answer ‘yes’ to any of them, please explain why this is so.

You have said you have “guides, beings and Angels” who help and support you, but all we are looking for here is for you to be certain there is no ‘I’ that exists in reality within Leelah.

And finally, just to revisit your expectations after liberation, you said:

“That I shall be able to know that the “me” is not who I am- that I can live permanently in a state of mind without being driven by a “me.” I know that I still will be visited by what needs to be healed - but with liberation I hope I will be able to do that in a dis-identified way.”

What if I said to you that your life to date, from birth and every moment in between then and now has been lived without a ‘me’. That a ‘me’, ‘I’, ‘mine’ ‘self’ has NEVER existed at all in any way during ANY phase of your life; that it has all been an illusion and a lie. How does this make you feel?


No rush to get back to me I appreciate you have a long day and are tired so only do so when you feel ready.

Much love

Chris

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leelotschka
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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:17 pm

Chris, I left the thread and prepared for bed - and all the tiredness was gone. I wondered if i should return - and the tiredness returned.
Speaking honest:
I relaxed and thought about the process: after the first gentle approach from you the first evening, I trusted that inner voice telling me "this is simple. Just allow yourself to see." And as you saw from the dreampost, it happened - I found a focus in a process of seeing clearly from a state of mind that was without a me. I felt and sensed the process and the shift/change for several hours, and was surprised - very -and confused when you say you were honored by my sharing it - I think I was supposed to share this kind of seeing, wasn't I?
It feels very good to read your first part of the last thread. Now i sense we are on the same ground again, and a lot of fear has left.
I notice how strong the habit is to believe that I am tested and MUST come up with the RIGHT answer. This connects to the younger me. And although I spoke from a very different knowledge and seeing, reporting from last night, I suspected it would change back - it often has - it seems that ego grabs hold of something and I am stuck again.
When i go to bed, or just sit and relax, is it OK if i just set an intention of looking at what you are telling me to look at? then I don't force the "me" to look - I can relax and trust that looking will just happen, just as last night ?
Your explanations in the first part REALLY are helpful.
1. In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the body?
2. In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the brain?
3. In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the mind?
4. In your direct experience are ‘you’ your thoughts?

If your answers are the same as before I expect you will answer ‘no’ to all of them. If however, you answer ‘yes’ to any of them, please explain why this is so.
1) No
2)No - just in a belief, not in experience ( writing that, i do not know what the difference is, since to me, the experience in the body is the same - the belief that I am a me causes stiff to happen in the body that is experienced as me, because the experience is so very familiar. I see that i identify with some feelings, but i forget that a LOT when the feelings just come and hook on to them as a habit.)
3)If I look as a baby, there is no I in the mind. if i look as me, it seems that my personality and character-me is directed from the brain. I dont know what else I can call this feeling of aliveness and identity. Still, I know it is not truth - i remember that from last night - but just looking like now, I would say yes - so it comes back to >WHO is doing the looking, doesnt it - ego or truth
4) In my direct experience, I am absolutely not my thoughts - but my ego grabs those who habitually defines "leelah". It is experienced as a huge magnet sucking me into a vortex, trapping me there.
You have said you have “guides, beings and Angels” who help and support you, but all we are looking for here is for you to be certain there is no ‘I’ that exists in reality within Leelah.
ahh. thanks for explaining. I thought angels were a big no-no.
I AM certain there is no "I" that exists in reality within Leelah - absolutely certain, truth has showed it to me - its just that when you ask me to "look", I immediately sense the memories and thoughts and habits arising, and latch onto them. As long as i do that, I thought it is honest have to tell you that i find an I - but really, what i find is just a stupid label.
ahh. that felt good :-)
And I KNOW that, and still I forget it each time you ask and the whole chalabang repeats itself.
What if I said to you that your life to date, from birth and every moment in between then and now has been lived without a ‘me’. That a ‘me’, ‘I’, ‘mine’ ‘self’ has NEVER existed at all in any way during ANY phase of your life; that it has all been an illusion and a lie. How does this make you feel?
First: so much freedom - ease joy - "of course, it has only been a dream" - there is a coldness and tensions in the throat/neck/chest area, and it feels very "me-ish"
and i want to go to bed with those words; "there has never existsed a self."
Something in me knows so well this is true.
How do I get the rest to follow?
in the dream, all of "us" - this symbol of unity - followed the momentum of truth. I cannot fathom why there is a choice to go back to the little self again.
I am so relieved that I trust you again. Thank you for listening to what is helpful -
I am looking forward to the night
much love and relief
Leelah

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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby Chris7 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:39 pm

Hi Leelah
I think I was supposed to share this kind of seeing, wasn't I?
Yes, that’s the idea, I was just appreciating your honesty and willingness to share your insights so deeply.


I notice how strong the habit is to believe that I am tested and MUST come up with the RIGHT answer

I can certainly understand this feeling. But this is not an intellectual challenge. It’s not a quiz. We are not replacing anything. And we are not trying to add anything; we are simply seeing through the illusion if an ‘I’.

it seems that ego grabs hold of something and I am stuck again.

Yes, this causes the anxiousness, it is the same as when you say you ‘force’ yourself to look and it feels uncomfortable for you, it’s all the same anxiety induced battle.

If it was as simple as just being told, or having read, that there is no such thing as an ‘I’ in reality, for this to become true in direct experience then all the millions of words written about the subject, all the multitude of practices that are entered into, and all the many decades (or lifetimes) trying to realise this, would not be needed. In other words, there will be some anxiety produced in the body, the idea that an ‘I’ exists is so very deeply embedded and is programmed in to us from birth and reinforced every moment of our lives.



In answer to the question: “In your direct experience is there an ‘I’ that exists in the brain” you wrote:


“No. Just in a belief, not in experience ( writing that, i do not know what the difference is, since to me, the experience in the body is the same - the belief that I am a me causes stiff to happen in the body that is experienced as me, because the experience is so very familiar. I see that i identify with some feelings”

What happens here is where the sticky bit comes in. Because it is so familiar and the mind labels everything as ‘me’, ‘mine’ it is hard to comprehend how it can be anything other than ‘me’, ‘mine’. The important thing here is that everything continues as it does and operates as it does BUT without it being labelled ‘me’, ‘mine’. Nothing changes, remember, there never was a ‘you’ in any of this in the first place, so don’t expect to feel differently or to not experience the same sensations, feelings, thoughts etc.

To simplify what I mean in the above. Everything that happens within the embodiment we call Leelah, happens and is then later labelled by mind as belonging to an ‘I’. The brain is an absolute genius in this labelling and has been trained to do so from birth.


so it comes back to >WHO is doing the looking, doesnt it - ego or truth

Looking happens. Typing these words happens. Talking happens. Walking happens. Everything happens by itself, then, a thought comes in (after the fact) and labels it ‘I’.

Try this out for yourself: see that without the pronoun ‘I’, ‘me’ ‘mine’ everything just happens. As in:

“I am breathing”
“My heart is beating”
“My foot hurts”

It’s the same with: “It is raining” what is “it”? Rain just happens.


OK, now I’ve not posted any of the above expecting answers. They are only pointers for you to consider, in order to help you through the sticky bits. In the end the brain can never fully grasp this as an intellectual consideration. It is beyond true understanding on this level. Fortunately we are not seeking an intellectual understanding.


I AM certain there is no "I" that exists in reality within Leelah - absolutely certain
Brilliant Leelah, this is all that is needed at this stage of awakening. Afterwards, deepening happens, and as you are aware, there are groups in LU that are set up just for this reason.


There are no questions for you to respond to in this post (except the one below) but if you wish to comment and seek further clarification on any of the points then please feel free to do so.

In light of the certainty you have that there is no "I" that exists in reality within Leelah, I have just one question for you:

Are you ready for the final questions?

Much love

Chris

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leelotschka
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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Are you ready for the final questions?
No :-) Is that one sentence the reason you ask?
Why? because i am wobbling from one part to the other - and because after the big shift in the night, that now feels like a dream. Today I have no certainty that there is no I in me - I have mulled about this all night and all day - it feels like I am another person.
May i please ask some questions?

1)When a musician or great artist/painter creates art, they will have a certain style. One recognizes that artist by this style. I' dont see how that is possible without an I through whom the art/music is "channeled." If there is no I in anybody, why are not everybody artists? why does not everyone have the same awesome talent?
2) I have the gift of "seeing." Clearsightedness. I just made a dragon and thought i would give it to my daughter - go an intuition, no this dragon is for the woman you will meet for the first time today." So i brought it to her, and it turns our that she loves dragons and collects them.
If there is no I in me who has this rather special gift, why does not everyone have it?
3)Please tell me how you define "a separate self" - so I know we are on the same line.
4) That you say there are no separate I's, does that mean that you are me/Iam you? No difference at all(except for gender?)
5) The reason that the shift happened after just the first night came, I believe, because I listened to the inner voice who reminded me that this process is simple, just allow yourself to be moved by it. I did not look - I just was "moved" from a place within the ego-thought-system to truth-system, :-) -and from here, there was NO I ever, and it has never been an I at all.
But I am not there now.
The nights are still pretty horrible - the "energy" coming clouds the thought-capacity completely, all I can say is help me help me - and after 3 minutes with this, the loving thoughts starts to seep through and it is experienced as I AM COMING BACK INTO EXISTENCE - no longer being sucked out from something else. When you say this I will go, there will be no defenses for negative entities wanting to prey on my energy.
STories, you say? may well be - but the effects of them are strongly experienced in the body/mind system. It feels like I am being filled up by toxic waist.
You know - now and them I am telling myself that all this pain/sleeplessness/anxiety is just resistance. But that sounds just like another big bullshit lie.
Dear Chris - thanks for your your warm kindness. I love your sensitivity - and can not fathom why it should not belong to you(and many else too, of course) since I feel it and sense it.
So it all boils down to the high inconsistency in my system maybe - the illusion is seen through, and then it is back as nothing happened at all.
Can you stand this confusion?
and of course you can ask the last questions - but I haven't felt a lasting shift, so i don't see why you would do it.
Sigh
hugs
Leelah

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leelotschka
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Re: Hi leelotschka, this is your thread

Postby leelotschka » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:52 pm

in case it was not clear - the one sentence I hinted to is " I AM certain there is no "I" that exists in reality within Leelah - absolutely certain"


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