Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

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Matt
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Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:21 pm

I'm joyfully available to guide seekers here, or on private email. I will ask you questions, and you will answer with profound honesty and clear, experiential evidence based on your homework and investigation. The pace will be slow and contemplative—only one to three messages per day. In 'my' own 'liberation' process, this kind of pace helped create depth, focus, and honesty, which may have sped up the direct recognition. Often, less is more. You are warmly welcome!

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Walbart
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Walbart » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:16 am

Hi Matt,

I'd like to give this a go. I've been struggling with the RT thing for a few months now and seem to be at an impasse. I'll make a point to be as open and honest as I can. I don't think I have a self, but I'm not convinced and I haven't totally seen this. There's still a massive accumulation of "me" that I can't get beyond. I'll say no more as it'd just be a mess of thoughts.

If you can help I'd be grateful.

Walbart.

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:35 pm

Hi Walbart :-))
Thanks for your sincerity. And yes, it helps to stay clear of the mess of thoughts.
Have you tried this? It helped me quite a bit:

Close your eyes and imagine that you're holding a spoon in your right hand....
Feel its weight, its texture, its temperature. Imagine in vivid detail what it looks and feels like....
There may be beliefs associated with the spoon, and thoughts about ‘what if it got lost,’ etc ;-).
Take a few more moments, until the spoon feels real.

Now, open your eyes and look at your right hand. Is there a spoon there?
Wow, it seemed so vivid, so real!
Now, in exactly the same way, look for an 'I', a 'looker'. Was there ever such a thing?

It's a lot more subtle, since the imagination of self has been habitually re-enforced for many years. But was this imaginary spoon/self ever real at any time? How does it feel to glimpse this?

Does the imaginary sense of self, or even the "massive accumulation of 'me' that I can't get beyond" have any relevance? Take your time to investigate.

Thanks,
M

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Walbart
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Walbart » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:24 am

Thanks Matt.

The first thing I notice is that it takes a lot of effort to conjure up the spoon, whereas my self is immediate and all-consuming. And if this self is imaginary, then my "sense" of self is very real. If I sit and look I can clearly see (I think) that there is just looking, and not necessarily a looker in here, looking out. There is just the vision, slapped back onto a brain. Then there are a thousand thoughts of me, me, me. Even if I see clearly, the thoughts aren't accepting this.
Does the imaginary sense of self, or even the "massive accumulation of 'me' that I can't get beyond" have any relevance?
I suppose not, but it seems to be there affecting everything that happens to me, that "I" do. Constantly whining, suffering, moaning. Ruining my good times.

The imagination of self. Makes sense though. I'm trying to get over my bullshit. When I look, sometimes I feel as if something is about to boil over, my whole body quivers. Then I think what a load of crap, this is surely thoughts playing tricks, why would there be any reason to shake if all that needs to be done is seeing there isn't a self. I feel very embroiled in the imaginary self. It's the imaginary self that is writing this now, he's in charge.

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:13 pm

Thank you for speaking the honest truth! You're right, this is completely hopeless. Thoughts CANNOT accept this. You cannot and will not accept this, even if it makes sense. You're right, to do so would be an inane thought-trick.

Yes, there are thousands upon thousands of thoughts, me, me, me. Absolutely ruinous, impenetrable ignorance. Totally embroiled in an imaginary self. A hopeless, helpless, hell state. So why not give up?

Please give up this attempt to get liberated from the sense of self. It really is a joke, a pitiful addiction! None of the so-called "liberators" you've talked with are free from the sense of self, and neither are the spiritual guides, therapists, buddhas, lamas, and whatever other fakers you might mingle with. The thoughts you've learned from them are cruel lies. But you keep coming back for more lies, like a demon-infested junkie. It's sickening. You cannot and will not be enlightened, you cannot and will not be free from the sense of self, you cannot and will not be free from 'me' thoughts. It's a false promise, a dirty trick. It's a sick, abusive, traumatizing fantasy. Give up! You're harming yourself. I'm totally serious. Give it up!

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:31 pm

Please let me know in detail what happens when you totally reject and give up this search, even if it's just momentary. Just vomit out your lifetime of spiritual addiction and sit with your sensations and feelings. And give me a break—don't tell me all kinds of ideas and stories. Just give me the uninterpreted data of your direct experience.
Thanks! Namaste!

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:31 pm

Dear Walbart,

Are you staying with the process? Please do; know that the medicine is offered out of love.

See, the diagnosis, (derived from your own words), is that you wish to be free of the 'sense of self', the thoughts of 'me', and associated negativity. Trying to be free from the sense of self is like a 'disease'. It is a futile project—and it is also beside the point.

When you give up trying to have 'you' disappear, it will be seen that sense of self never was a problem. It is seen as but a mere transparent appearance of insubstantial data, having no reality or effect. And at that moment, the freedom and peace that you once desired will be clearly recognized as already here. 'Me'-thoughts can appear all day, but they are not purchased because they are seen-through. A thought has no substance.

Best wishes,
Matt

P.S.: So, give up already, and let me know what happens. You've already suffered enough.

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Walbart
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Walbart » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:44 pm

Hey Matt,

Yes, I'm staying with it. I'm trying to act and experience rather than get lost in discussions and word games. I'm not sure how I give up trying to make "me" disappear, if I've been told that seeing this (no intrinsic self) is the way forward. I can sit with sensations, trying to balance in direct experience of what's here without thoughts taking my seeming centre of focus away.

Your advice is to give up trying to be liberated from the sense of self.... I feel like I can't stop, because that would be giving up the search, which is my desire to find out the truth, and answers. I'd spent the last 4 or 5 weeks trying to forget about the whole no self thing as it was driving me crazy. I don't know what to do, but your pointing is useful. If there is no me then what is there? My main problem I think, is that I live in a world of fantasy, imagination and hope. Which are all useless when looking for truth. I don't really think I'm expressing myself that clearly here.

The uninterpreted data of my direct experience? Just things, objects, colours, sensations. Resignation.

I'll come back to this over the weekend.

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Abodynameddan
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Abodynameddan » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:59 am

May i step in and request guidance?

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:54 am

Hey Matt,

Yes, I'm staying with it. I'm trying to act and experience rather than get lost in discussions and word games.
Sounds good.
I'm not sure how I give up trying to make "me" disappear, if I've been told that seeing this (no intrinsic self) is the way forward.
The sense of 'me' doesn't disappear, unless you're drugged out, fast asleep or dead. So, again, the sense of 'me' is not the problem. The sense of 'me' can appear with out a 'real I' there. It appears to no one, it pertains to no one. It's just empty data, appearing and disappearing. Getting rid of empty data is beside the point. If you're not ready to check this out and acknowledge that it's beside the point, we should take a break. You are very welcome to come back when you feel ready.
The uninterpreted data of my direct experience? Just things, objects, colours, sensations. Resignation.
This is pretty accurate—if you want to keep talking, we could stay with this process of seeing raw data, labels, thoughts, sensations, stories.

Wishing you all the best,
M

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Walbart
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Walbart » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:10 pm

Hi Matt,

I am ready to check this out and won't be taking a break. My aim is to have this over with before Christmas so that I'm in the same position as Santa.

If you're not up for it let me know and I'll go elsewhere. Otherwise, please let's continue. Sometimes I feel like I'm nearly there. Sometimes I feel like I've already done this but got lost again because I can't believe it's so simple. What should I do? Just examine the raw data? Note everything as an object? I see that everything is just experience being registered by an organism. There is no I sitting behind these eyes. There is identification with this body's life. There is all the me stuff. I have trouble letting go though.

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:41 pm

Hi Matt,

I am ready to check this out and won't be taking a break. My aim is to have this over with before Christmas so that I'm in the same position as Santa.
;-) No, you'll be done in a week or so, if you decide to check out the "sense of self" thing and see if it has any substance. Isn't it just raw, natural data, thoughts and sensations? Check and see for yourself and let me know.
Sometimes I feel like I'm nearly there. Sometimes I feel like I've already done this but got lost again because I can't believe it's so simple.
That story is composed of raw, impersonal data, no? Thoughts and sensations only. Check and see for yourself and let me know.
What should I do? Just examine the raw data? Note everything as an object?
That kind of thing was helpful for me. Isn't the 'I'-thought an object in awareness? Just an insubstantial thought? Don't believe me, look, and really make sure, and let me know.
I see that everything is just experience being registered by an organism.
Is the apparent organism a person? Or just raw, organic, free-range data? Investigate until you're sure, and get back to me.
There is no I sitting behind these eyes.

Okay, tell me in detail what you mean—how is this known?
There is identification with this body's life. There is all the me stuff. I have trouble letting go though.
Aren't these stories composed of thoughts and sensations? Aren't thoughts and sensations just raw, etc. data, like a rainbow or glints of light on a lake? Take your time and look deeply, and I look forward to your discovery.
Best,
M

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:42 pm

May i step in and request guidance?
Hi, Abodynameddan, welcome. I started a new thread for you on One-on-One, if you're interested.
Best wishes,
M

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Walbart
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Walbart » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:53 pm

No, you'll be done in a week or so, if you decide to check out the "sense of self" thing and see if it has any substance. Isn't it just raw, natural data, thoughts and sensations? Check and see for yourself and let me know.
Ok, so I see that when I look for a self that it can't be found. The only evidence for it is a sense of self, which is made up of sensations, thoughts, memories, familiarity with patterns etc. My sense of self right now includes thoughts that are seemingly struggling with this idea, but by being only fleeting thoughts they are proving the thing they are trying to protect, ie a lack of a me anywhere in this picture. There are only thoughts of me, nothing else. I've been reading the Ilona/Lianne thread a lot, the stuff there about perceiver/perceiving/perceived is helping and confusing me. I almost get it! I can look at my hand, and I see the hand and I see the awareness of the hand, and this can be traced back to.... nothing. Just eyes in a head like an empty camera. I'm struggling because I've been led to believe by trusted sources that "I am the awareness", rather than "me having awareness". Now I'm trying to get beyond imagining there is no me, to actually seeing it. And I think I do see it, but there is still a lot of imagining going on. I'm trying to just see the objects in front of me, or rather, all sensations right now that appear, and then take out the me from the equation. Which apparently isn't even there. So. All these objects, raw data, thoughts, awareness of things.... which part is me then?
That story is composed of raw, impersonal data, no? Thoughts and sensations only. Check and see for yourself and let me know.
It's all data, but a lot of it seems to be personal. Or is that just a lot of thoughts related to familiar things? All these objects, thoughts, i-thoughts, me-thoughts.... If everything is an object in experience, then where am I? Who is experiencing these objects from my point of view? Or is it really just object, eyes/ears, brain, thoughts etc? I think that's it but still I can't break it down until there is no me. I know I'm contradicting myself back and forth, but this isn't easy for me.

That kind of thing was helpful for me. Isn't the 'I'-thought an object in awareness? Just an insubstantial thought? Don't believe me, look, and really make sure, and let me know.
Hundreds of millions of insubstantial thoughts creating a wall of "me" that appears to be solid.

Is the apparent organism a person? Or just raw, organic, free-range data? Investigate until you're sure, and get back to me.
I think I know it's not a person, but it all goes so fast that it's hard to break down or see through. This thing here, this "body and thoughts" is convinced that it is more, and that all these weirdos online are trying to brainwash it ;)

There is no I sitting behind these eyes.

Okay, tell me in detail what you mean—how is this known?
Where could the I be kept? It's not in my head somewhere. The more I look to see where it could be, the more it seems like everything is outside, all objects, and there isn't even an inside. Not a hollow, not a void or even a vast emptiness, just all things out there in space, as objects. My eyes and ears have a limited range, this is what makes up my limited experience. There is input, then thoughts, then action, or more thoughts, continually. Unless I sleep, then the input is drastically reduced and then my brain bumbles along processing memories or twisting the events of the day.

There is identification with this body's life. There is all the me stuff. I have trouble letting go though.
Aren't these stories composed of thoughts and sensations? Aren't thoughts and sensations just raw, etc. data, like a rainbow or glints of light on a lake? Take your time and look deeply, and I look forward to your discovery.
Yes, makes sense, everything is data, including me, including thinking there has to be some essence of me that identifies with everything. But I still think that if I see there is no me, that I will then move to identify with something else, like space or awareness. I can't imagine being beyond identification with a thing. Even if I see that identifying with things is just more thoughts. I've been staring at my hands a lot again... I think I still have thoughts that there is hope that I will find something to hang myself onto with all of this. I really have blindfolded myself, but even after all this talk I can't believe that I don't exist. Even if all the evidence points towards this fact, I am not shaken up by it, or convinced.

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Matt
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Re: Enter a "direct pointing" process here!

Postby Matt » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:11 am

Ok, so I see that when I look for a self that it can't be found. The only evidence for it is a sense of self, which is made up of sensations, thoughts, memories, familiarity with patterns etc. My sense of self right now includes thoughts that are seemingly struggling with this idea, but by being only fleeting thoughts they are proving the thing they are trying to protect, ie a lack of a me anywhere in this picture. There are only thoughts of me, nothing else.
Would be great if you can continue in this direction. And yes, it's clear there is an instinctual self-protection mechanism at work—that's normal and is no problem here. What is behind it?
All these objects, raw data, thoughts, awareness of things.... which part is me then?
This part doesn't make too much sense to me. Are you asking which part of a thought is 'you'? Like, which part of a random grain of sand is 'you'??
It's all data, but a lot of it seems to be personal.
Yes, like a movie seems to be "personal" or refer to personal reality, but when you look closely, it's really all pixels. When you see it's all pixels, does the screenplay permanently disappear? Take a nice long look at this, and let me know.
Yes, makes sense, everything is data, including me, including thinking there has to be some essence of me that identifies with everything. But I still think that if I see there is no me, that I will then move to identify with something else, like space or awareness.
I don't want to convince you of a belief, I want to help you see what's experientially true. So why not try out what you're imagining here. See if you can identify with space or awareness. Is it even possible to convert an object (space) into the subject ('I')? And if you were an imaginary movie-character made of pixels and vibrations, would you need to identify with this or that? As you're starting to see, it's just thinking. Thoughts without a thinker that you can find. Can you prove to me that there's a thinker of thoughts?


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