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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:32 pm

What exactly that " I" you referring to here that is processing signals from the body?

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:00 am

Let's see... so the body reacts, the stomach gurgles, the chest contracts, a tickling in the wrist causes the other hand to move up to scratch it, it's the knowing of these sensations that feels like an I, I'm aware of what's happening and the knowing of these sensations is always located with this particular body and not another...

there's an urging feeling in the body to eat, even though I can't pinpoint the exact sensation, but there's a desire to get food. So it's my experience, who is the my, can't pinpoint who this my is, it's always been there, feels like a nothingness blob, then there's also a strong me feeling that is very needy for love and attention and struggles very hard to receive it, it's spurred by strong emotions that come from the head and move into the chest in fast contractions labeled as panicy... when I see that me as a mechanism that just reacts then the I that sees that is nothing that can be seen, it's just there, when I try to locate it I visualize it as the personality again...

I am going to dive into this apparent me, like I do with feelings, and see where that takes me, right to the heart of it.

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:04 am

Okay, so I see that the me is a hopeless case, it's always going to think it is whatever is happening in the moment and there's no solving that ever, it's an endless array of stuff, the I is the surrounding, the everything that comes up, because it's not limited and it sees everything,

is it a matter of staying in a wider focus. I keep narrowing back to the me again, then back out and the back out feels good, but then it contracts back again! I'm confused!

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:09 am

I'm aware of what's happening and the knowing of these sensations is always located with this particular body and not another...
You are aware or there is an awareness?

Baby in a crib, laying on his back, stomach gurgles, crying, movement toward the breast...is there self in a baby, a manager to all that happening or it's just happening? Baby perceives himself as "I"? "I" am hungry, "I" am cold? Let's gurgle the stomach, let me cry? Is this is what is happening? Or baby is one with the environment - pure movement, pure feeling, pure sensations...Where is "I" in all that? It's just a label that we learn to use pertaining the experience that is happening here. Is it true? Look, really look into it.

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:19 am

Okay, so I see that the me is a hopeless case, it's always going to think it is whatever is happening in the moment and there's no solving that ever, it's an endless array of stuff, the I is the surrounding, the everything that comes up, because it's not limited and it sees everything,

is it a matter of staying in a wider focus. I keep narrowing back to the me again, then back out and the back out feels good, but then it contracts back again! I'm confused!
this is complete bullshit. Only because you heard from everywhere, and you accepted, and now you are trying to fit this in somehow not to be "a hopeless case".

First of all, you are not damn special, therefore not hopeless. Ok? Give it up, the feeling of "me" being somehow different then others, and you can't get it. Of cause you can't - there is no you. You is just a label that was used from the very young age, and you so much identified with it, you think you exist, but you - don't exist. Body, feeling, sensations, thoughts - exist. You - not.

Look at it here, really slowly read and really look:
There is a thought of Unicorn, there is an image of Unicorn, the image can evoke sensations.
Thought/image, sensations, feeling of Unicorn - exist. Actual Unicorn - don't. Just a lable, an dilution.

Can you look that "I" is just the same as Unicorn?

Really look into this. Drop your wide focus. Drop it. Look in a very narrow focus - does Unicorn exist? Does self exist?

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:29 am

Any feeling comes up - use it, use it as a fuel to looking. Do not ran away. You know how to work with feelings - inquire what is the wisdom here of you arising? And continue to look, knowing that feeling is here to help your endeavor.

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:39 am

I think you misunderstood, by hopeless I meant that I can realize that trying to solve all my thoughts is futile it's just the body responding to stimuli, I've had this feeling deeply before, for a split second, in the presence of an awakened friend, I felt a part of the vibration that I always feel when I'm around him and I felt completely detached from my body, I felt like my body could be smashed to pieces and it wouldn't really matter, I realized at that point that everything that happens is impersonal and bodies just happen to be in the vicinity, so it seems like things are happening to them. But then the experience was gone and it just became a mental concept again. Also I didn't feel inside my body, even though I could see out of my eyes, my memory is that I was a part of the gentle sort of vibration that I felt.

With what I wrote, I don't think I am regurgitating things I read, but maybe I was remembering that experience above, because it was more mental musing than actual feeling. And right now my mind keeps wandering to idle thoughts of people I know in my life.

I had a thought of disappointment in myself for continuing to think those thoughts and when I remembered that it was an automatic function of the mind and that it was all okay, I felt a sense of spaciousness creep up for a second, then it was gone again.

I'm trying to be as real and honest as I possibly can here, I don't wear the advaita clothes or talk the advaita talk, even though I go to meetings, it is for the feeling of presence I feel when I'm there, not to fit into any kind of a group, or to pick up any more mental concepts. I've always shied away from groups. I am a loner, who just wants to discover what is beyond, what I see and sense that others know. I know how it feels to let my body just function and feel it contract and watch thoughts occur and sit with sensation without labeling it, it feels amazing. I've been practicing this a while now, but somehow for 98% of the time, there still seems to be a me that this is all happening to.

Trying to imagine what a baby sees is hard for me, because I know that babies have not yet had the life experience we've had in order to create thoughts and concepts about what's happening like adults have, is it possible to completely obliterate all concepts? it feel more natural to me to feel the concepts arise as they do, and when I can recognize they are concepts and occurring naturally without effort on my part, but there's so many of them, it seems neverending, I haven't shifted to the spacious place where they all occur in, I've visited that place, but then I'm back again, into the me that is bombarded with turbulent emotions and analytical thinking, it feels like they're beating me up sometimes. who's the me they're beating up??? I don't know but I feel beat up.

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:03 am

so did you look if Unicorn exists?

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 am

Okay, I read what you wrote again, especially about the unicorn, and I understood better this time, what you were guiding me to see...

The Unicorn seems to exist when I think about it, I can see it, imagine it clearly and so it's the same with the 'me' if i release the thought of a me with all its rules and constructs, then all is just happening. Then there's an I who perceives it and tends to structure it into a me, if I can drop the me, then there's just the perception happening and the witnessing of it, by the I, but it doesn't have to land anywhere or mean anything.

Am I on the right track now? I really want to get this, keep calling me out as you see it...

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:14 am

and so my mind thinks the unicorn exists because I'm thinking so hard about it, but it of course doesn't exist. And that's the same with the me...

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:36 am

Okay, I read what you wrote again, especially about the unicorn, and I understood better this time, what you were guiding me to see...
I appreciate that and will appreciate if you really focus on what I ask, otherwise we will end up having another non-duality satsang, that would be lovely, but we are here to see something that you didn't see before on all the satsangs.
The Unicorn seems to exist when I think about it, I can see it, imagine it clearly and so it's the same with the 'me' if i release the thought of a me with all its rules and constructs, then all is just happening. Then there's an I who perceives it and tends to structure it into a me, if I can drop the me, then there's just the perception happening and the witnessing of it, by the I, but it doesn't have to land anywhere or mean anything.

Am I on the right track now? I really want to get this, keep calling me out as you see it...
You are on the right track. But you need to narrow the focus even more. Only look for what is not exist. If you see it, then later you will integrate what is exist, that "I" that you mention. But for now, you need to release that, all that non-dual awareness, consciousness staff, because our focus here has to be very precise - to look for self, 'I","me".

Let me write to you how you look.

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:43 am

You choose something in the reality - like a table. You know its exist - it's there, you want it or not. In fact, if you close your eyes - it will be there anyway. So you see - this is real

Then you go back to our Unicorn. You saw - this is an illusion. Image/though, sensations, if any in your body, and etc - exist. But the actual Unicorn - doesn't.

You now look at self. And compare self with something real as table
and something illusory as Unicorn.

You see that self and Unicorn have something in common. Table is very vivid, real, its here. Unicorn is vague, illusion, it's though, a label.

Look at self. Bodily sensations - exist, thoughts - exist, feeling - exist. Self - is just a thought, a label to all this.

Focus. Look.

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:18 am

I am going to keep looking inward for the me... I know it's too quick to respond and I need to take some more time with this, but first I don't know what to do with the memories that seem to make up the me, things that happened that cause me to act the way I do today and make up my personality... I even see pictures of me as a child come up.

Okay, so as I'm writing, it's helping me to focus... those memories then are like the unicorn, abstract pictures that don't have to mean anything, they're just past things that happened which I labeled and think I have to keep labeling to this day and with the same label, if I stop labeling the memories that come up when I think about me, then it could be a distant story, just perceptions in my head, like my idea of a unicorn, and I can't control those ideas that pop up anyways, they don't have to mean anything...

I'll keep looking deeper....

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Elena
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Re: Come on in...

Postby Elena » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:13 am

Okay, so as I'm writing, it's helping me to focus...


you should definitely write if it helps you. Just sit, have my question in the intention and just write.
those memories then are like the unicorn, abstract pictures that don't have to mean anything, they're just past things that happened which I labeled and think I have to keep labeling to this day and with the same label, if I stop labeling the memories that come up when I think about me, then it could be a distant story, just perceptions in my head, like my idea of a unicorn, and I can't control those ideas that pop up anyways, they don't have to mean anything...

I'll keep looking deeper....
look here: thoughts - exist, memories - collection of thought - exist.
Thoughs about Unicorn - exist. Unicorn - does not.
You is just like Unicorn - illusion. I am not talking about your body, thoughts, feeling, sensations - that all does exist. You, You - label - do not exist as you thought it were. It is exist as a label, a though.

Do not solve it in your head. You never will see. You need to open your eyes - and look right in front of you and compare reality to illusionary. In this lays the truth. We take what is illusory for real, once you see - you will never un-see. That is why all say it is so simple, but to go through that threshold - years of conditioning to see yourself as "I", there is needed much focus and determination .

Please pull all you focus and look. Not solve it in your head. You only get headache. But sit quaintly, take time, and say : "What is actually Elena asked me?" Not what is in my mind, not what I want to say or think, but what she actually asks me to do?" " She asked me to look plainly in front of me and see what is real. Ok, let's do just that. Table is real? Yes, real. Computer is real? Yes, real. I can't make them disappear, even if I think hard or try not to think about them, they will still be there. So now I know what is reality - it is something that is there even if I will not think about it. So let's look then at body - sensations, feelings. Let's see if they are real. If I close my eyes and not think about itching, the itching will continue, or the pain in my leg, so it is real too. The materiality of body - flesh - real too, just like a table. Take the thoughts. Can I stop them from flying in the middle of the thought? they just arrear and disappear. I am not doing them, for sure, I am not thinking my thoughts into existence. Right? so they are real. Then you look at the Unicorn, does it exist? No, you know it doesn't. So what does exist then what makes this Unicorn? Exactly - thought Unicorn brings Unicorn into existence as a lable to that thought. Lets look at self. What is self? Does it exist? " This is how you work - not in the head, but actual looking.

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frozensun11
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Re: Come on in...

Postby frozensun11 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:44 am

Okay, I've been pondering what's real and looking for self. I have a friend who is ignoring me, which is triggering a lot of fear thoughts, causing the body to contract hard, feels violent, but it's a great place for me to ask who is the self who seems to be feeling these feelings, I asked the question and tried not to think up the answer like you said, but instead look for who the self is and it confused me. And I felt a subtle sense of relaxation, not sure what it was or why. I also questioned what is memory, because this seems to be the culprit, I could not really pinpoint either one, and haha, I really wanted an answer to solve this.

Miraculously, I started feeling better, even joyous, which given this trigger situation of mine is unheard of. I still don't know why though. I need to keep pondering, because I'm curious... When the old scared, abandoned feeling returned later on this evening, the feeling felt boring! And then it slipped away. I feel excited because I know I found a level of freedom tonight, not the whole thing, but I feel much lighter, I'll see what happens tomorrow and keep questioning who is this self that I think suffers and needs things and people mistreat

Focusing still seems hard to do, especially without thinking, but questioning everything seems to help and continuing to ask the question. It's like the question is being answered without any effort on my part...

Please advise me if I'm veering off course, I can play a lot of mind tricks on myself and I don't want to, I want real freedom, so if I'm off base, please let me know. Thank you, this is fascinating so far...


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