Looking for a guide.

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kdvoren
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:38 pm

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby kdvoren » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:41 am

"As you can see, it's also clear to him that you're standing on the fence and oscillating between trusting direct experiential evidence and believing thoughts.

I think this sums it up.


Do you see that you never have to BELIEVE direct experiential evidence?

I understand this and I see this.


He said: Tell him to get back to you with 100% certainty... tell him to confirm himself that there is NO self, doer, controller... and that there NEVER was... and there NEVER will be.

He has to be pushed to look at this with certainty, and get out of any oscillation. This should trigger the Awakening insight, if it has not already occurred.

I’m 100% certain sometimes. Others, I still believe the old thoughts. I know one is the result of direct experience, the other the result of believing thoughts. I’m still straddling. All there is to do is look. Keep looking and stop believing. I can feel some part not wanting to stop believing.

Sorry if this is frustrating. There is some frustration over here.
I'm going to post this, then look at your last response.
Thanks

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Empty Mirror
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Empty Mirror » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:11 am

Hi Ken
"As you can see, it's also clear to him that you're standing on the fence and oscillating between trusting direct experiential evidence and believing thoughts.
I think this sums it up.
Concepts show up in this, and those concepts string themselves together into conceptual constructs which we call thoughts. Some of those constructs can be confirmed with direct experiential evidence, and some are just conceptual constructs.

Can you see that thoughts are just self-assembling conceptual constructs that nobody is thinking?

Can you think of any logical reason to believe thoughts that you don't think, and which can not be confirmed with direct experience?
Do you see that you never have to BELIEVE direct experiential evidence?
I understand this and I see this.
Great. So then you know that the veracity of these conceptual constructs that show up, can be tested against direct experiential evidence, and they are being tested. You will notice that there is a thought about something, and then there is the thought "Does that correlate with direct experience?", and there is "looking".

Do you see that nobody is doing that either?

You are not the thinker of ANY of those thoughts. There is nobody in control of any of this. The structure that built itself collapses itself, and nothing changes - because the structure was only ever in thought. It was only ever a conceptual construct.
He said: Tell him to get back to you with 100% certainty... tell him to confirm himself that there is NO self, doer, controller... and that there NEVER was... and there NEVER will be.

He has to be pushed to look at this with certainty, and get out of any oscillation. This should trigger the Awakening insight, if it has not already occurred.
I’m 100% certain sometimes. Others, I still believe the old thoughts. I know one is the result of direct experience, the other the result of believing thoughts. I’m still straddling.


Look at this carefully now. Do you see that there is no "I" that is straddling anything?

There are just conflicting thoughts showing up in this. Look at ALL of these conceptual constructs. None of them are "your" thoughts. Test ALL of them against direct experiential evidence. Those that pass the test can be trusted.
All there is to do is look. Keep looking and stop believing.
Exactly :)
I can feel some part not wanting to stop believing.
If you look carefully at this feeling you'll see that it is only to be found in thoughts that are trying to find something to latch on to. They will be thoughts that demand an I in order to have any meaning.

Please try to describe the direct experience of "not wanting to stop believing".
Sorry if this is frustrating. There is some frustration over here.
It's not frustrating for me at all :-)

You're doing great.

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kdvoren
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:38 pm

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby kdvoren » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:59 pm

I'm still here (uh oh). Been busy and tired. Will respond

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kdvoren
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby kdvoren » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:17 am

Hi John.
I reread your post, and feel little motivation to respond. I don't know why. It seems that being on the fence is a comfortable place to be, or at least maybe more comfortable than getting off it.
It may also be that dealing with my nighttime fears is becoming predominant. They're worse than ever, quite disturbing, disquieting, distressing and discouraging. Considering these fears as thoughts, which they clearly are, does not help in disbelieving them. In the middle of the night, discrimination is nearly impossible. I awake fearful and exhausted, and feel powerless (which is sometimes relieving).
I don't know what else to say.
sorry
Ken

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Empty Mirror
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Empty Mirror » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:04 am

Hi ken
I reread your post, and feel little motivation to respond. I don't know why. It seems that being on the fence is a comfortable place to be, or at least maybe more comfortable than getting off it.
It may also be that dealing with my nighttime fears is becoming predominant. They're worse than ever, quite disturbing, disquieting, distressing and discouraging.
Please tell me what sorts of fears they are. If you prefer, you can tell me via private message.
Considering these fears as thoughts, which they clearly are, does not help in disbelieving them.
What do these thoughts say?
In the middle of the night, discrimination is nearly impossible. I awake fearful and exhausted, and feel powerless (which is sometimes relieving).
There has never been anyone there with any power in the first place Ken. Everything has just been happening, with no driver at the wheel. You already know this, but you seem to fear the lack of control.

There is nothing to fear at all because there NEVER was any control at all. Can you see that?
sorry
You have nothing to apologise for Ken, it's not unusual for feelings of fear to show up when the "I" thought is seen through. It's important not to resist the fear. Allow it to be there, and look at it closely. What you see is an "emptiness", but take a closer look at that "emptiness". You'll discover that it's very alive.

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kdvoren
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:38 pm

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby kdvoren » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:24 am

Hi John.
I haven't been inspired to continue the dialogue, but I will do my best to answer your questions and share what's come up.
My fears are about not sleeping and being more tired and about being too fatigued to function the next day. Crazy thoughts like "you won't sleep" get attached to the brain, and spiral out of control.
Speaking of which, I read about a woman who was able to recover from Parkinson's because she "put it in God's hands". So I tried that at bedtime, giving up control to a beneficent caretaker. It worked

Then I heard an interview with a neuro-surgeon that had a near-death experience. He knew that God loved him, and everyone. Somehow this sank in, and I have been experiencing God's love (for me). It was so powerful I started crying. This contrasts with a few days earlier when I was crying out of terror and grief.
I realize I have felt like a separate, alone, out-of control but trying to be in-control, fearful self, who did not feel connected to or supported by any one. Experiencing God's love was a God-send.

I know this is not the final healing. I imagine, though I don't have to know now, that I will know that God is not separate from me, and that I am God and I am love, that there is no difference, no distinction, and that all is One.
Thanks for listening.
Ken

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Empty Mirror
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Empty Mirror » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:44 am

Hi John.
I haven't been inspired to continue the dialogue, but I will do my best to answer your questions and share what's come up.
My fears are about not sleeping and being more tired and about being too fatigued to function the next day. Crazy thoughts like "you won't sleep" get attached to the brain, and spiral out of control.
Speaking of which, I read about a woman who was able to recover from Parkinson's because she "put it in God's hands". So I tried that at bedtime, giving up control to a beneficent caretaker. It worked

Then I heard an interview with a neuro-surgeon that had a near-death experience. He knew that God loved him, and everyone. Somehow this sank in, and I have been experiencing God's love (for me). It was so powerful I started crying. This contrasts with a few days earlier when I was crying out of terror and grief.
I realize I have felt like a separate, alone, out-of control but trying to be in-control, fearful self, who did not feel connected to or supported by any one. Experiencing God's love was a God-send.

I know this is not the final healing. I imagine, though I don't have to know now, that I will know that God is not separate from me, and that I am God and I am love, that there is no difference, no distinction, and that all is One.
Thanks for listening.
Ken

That was beautiful Ken. Thank you for sharing that.

That experience of love is the love that 'You'/'This'/'God' has for its own beingness.

All of this is 'God'/'This'/'You'

Nothing is ever experienced by anything other than 'You'/'This'/'God'.

'You'/'God'/'This' all refer to "this that is" - this universe of thought, emotions, sensations, PCs, people, and everything else.

There is no individual to be loved by God because the individual only ever existed in thought.

Do you see that those fears are just stuff showing up in, and as a part of, "this that is"?

And that it is the same with all objects like chairs, and tables, and people - including Ken?

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kdvoren
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:38 pm

Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby kdvoren » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:37 am

Thanks for your response John.
When fears are intense, they seem more than just showing up. When they are not, they are seen more clearly.
While being loved by God is better than being scared shitless, I do see the separation involved.
I'm re-embracing God, and in so doing, will undoubtedly find the real self, as it all folds into One.
By the way, I was enjoying sitting on the fence. I could see in all directions.
Going on a long weekend.
Have a good one
Ken



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