Jen seeking guidance

[Jenness]

It is a very good tool for working through some of these beliefs.
Pick it up and see if it supports.

Okay! Tried it for thought of “I need to be seen as good enough and not less than,” and without that thought, there’s thought that I’m unsafe if i don’t have that, seen as less than and rejected is unsafe, and without that thought, there’s “being rejected makes me really sad,” Then just feel that sadness and it feels more held. Think it’s helpful!

One question today:
Do words hurt?

Not on their own. Only if I take it on as true, and live in that reality where it’s true

[graceabounds]

Yes. The only “pain” that comes from words is when a thought claims, “This is about me. This means something real.”

Do some more Byron Katie this weekend, sounds like some things are moving with it. :)

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Yes. The only “pain” that comes from words is when a thought claims, “This is about me. This means something real.”

Trying to understand how this relates to the thoughts work of Byron Katie. If it’s not about me, then can’t believe a thought about what i need to be happy, etc. Seems the more root thought to the ones I’ve been working with, but seems like it’s hard to completely not believe the root thought if still attached to thoughts on top, or maybe even if root “me” thought is super loosened, there’s still traces of the others thoughts going.

Do some more Byron Katie this weekend, sounds like some things are moving with it. :)

I’ve been trying to find the thoughts and releasing them in this way, and it seems to come down to beliefs of needing something to be any way in order to be happy or safe, namely an acceptance or love from others and a freedom to do what i want and not have to do tasks i don’t want to to be happy, and a needing to be seen as competent or likable for opportunities to be safe and secure. Getting the sense I’d rather lose them now, then stay scared of losing them or losing the opportunity to get them. The more I lose, the more free. If I didn’t have those thoughts, I’d be already happy and already feel safe. Not necessarily the less I have, the happier, but the less I need to have, the happier

[graceabounds]

beliefs of needing something to be any way in order to be happy or safe

Yes. There are maps to work through these layers once the separate self is seen through. It doesn’t happen all at once (usually).

Byron Katie is important to the process to get underneath the foundation of these thoughts being True. Once destabilized more can be seen as you are doing.

The more I lose, the more free.

There isn’t anything to lose actually… none of this is real. An illusion is an illusion, it has never existed and never will.


Back to the core of what we are exploring here:
Are you the thinker of these thoughts?
and/or
Is there a you to whom these thoughts arise?

No philosophizing. Take a look. Like you are looking to see what color your socks are. Not in thought. Directly.

[Jenness]

Yes. There are maps to work through these layers once the separate self is seen through. It doesn’t happen all at once (usually).

I see!

There isn’t anything to lose actually… none of this is real. An illusion is an illusion, it has never existed and never will.

Took a little looking to remember, but it’s the 5 senses, interpretations of what they are and how they’re interacting with one another (person here, other people there, relating to each other), and sensations of emotions. Or.. if 5 senses and labels of them (body, chair, etc.) and how they interact are seen as real, maybe just the idea that there’s a separate agent here that’s a self , and so that self can’t lose anything, only the character can.

Back to the core of what we are exploring here:
Are you the thinker of these thoughts?
and/or
Is there a you to whom these thoughts arise?

No, just the thoughts appearing in space

[graceabounds]

but it’s the 5 senses, interpretations of what they are and how they’re interacting with one another (person here, other people there, relating to each other), and sensations of emotions

5 senses. Thoughts. And emotions which = sensation + thought.
Thats it, thats all you get.

Let’s explore “others” a bit more…
Can you find a self in other “human bodies”? How do you KNOW it’s there? Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced? Can you directly experience "others"?

Right now, when the word “others” comes up — what’s actually here? A thought-image of faces? A memory? A label “my friend,” “my partner,” “my kids”? Or is there an actual second entity standing apart, separate, “other”?

Look closely:
Is there you here and someone else over there in direct experience, before the story sticks? Or are there just colours, sounds, sensations, and thought saying “that’s another person”?

Can you find any “entity” behind the face, or only colours-shapes-sounds + a thought saying “that’s another person”? Look right now. where is the border between “me” and “others,” except in narration?

if 5 senses and labels of them (body, chair, etc.) and how they interact are seen as real, maybe just the idea that there’s a separate agent here that’s a self , and so that self can’t lose anything, only the character can.

In direct experience there are seeing, hearing etc and thought provides the labels. It is all thought. The labels aren’t real.
Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a speech but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

And what is all this about a separate agent and character? It is putting more thought in the way of what just is. All fantasy.

[Jenness]

5 senses. Thoughts. And emotions which = sensation + thought.
Thats it, thats all you get.

Got it! Feels like every time I re-see it, it clicks a bit more. Maybe it loosens another layer of remaining clinging doubt

Let’s explore “others” a bit more…
Can you find a self in other “human bodies”? How do you KNOW it’s there? Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced? Can you directly experience "others"?

I can only find a thought that there’s a person there and a feeling of protection and thought of needing to keep them separated out from the “me” here. Cannot experience others directly, but a pieced together bundle of the 5 senses with thoughts of what it is, and the thoughts about how that self is , and emotions from that.

Right now, when the word “others” comes up — what’s actually here? A thought-image of faces? A memory? A label “my friend,” “my partner,” “my kids”? Or is there an actual second entity standing apart, separate, “other”?

All those things, thought image of face, labels , no entity , not even a real image here right now that i can confirm is here rather than just a thought of an image

Look closely:
Is there you here and someone else over there in direct experience, before the story sticks? Or are there just colours, sounds, sensations, and thought saying “that’s another person”?

Just stories , based off a distinction of the kinda of data I get. One character I have the inside view of and access to thoughts and emotions, that’s labeled as “me” and another is just 5 senses with thoguhts about them.

Can you find any “entity” behind the face, or only colours-shapes-sounds + a thought saying “that’s another person”? Look right now. where is the border between “me” and “others,” except in narration?

No border, only narration, only thought labels

In direct experience there are seeing, hearing etc and thought provides the labels. It is all thought. The labels aren’t real.
Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a speech but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

Yes, I can

And what is all this about a separate agent and character? It is putting more thought in the way of what just is. All fantasy.

I’d heard that everything is here and real except for the self, so was trying to figure out that distinction. In my experience, the 5 senses and the thoughts and emotions are all appearing , I guess it’s just that the self isn’t real because the self is the content of the thoughts, not the thoughts itself.

[graceabounds]

I’d heard that everything is here and real except for the self, so was trying to figure out that distinction. In my experience, the 5 senses and the thoughts and emotions are all appearing , I guess it’s just that the self isn’t real because the self is the content of the thoughts, not the thoughts itself.

The problem is, when you sit and try to figure it out, you are doing that from the perspective of that thing itself. That is why we come into direct experience, spend time in that and then take a look (not think about it).

The self isn’t even the content of the thoughts… it doesn’t exist! :)

So I like this metaphor… what is a university? Is it the buildings, the people, the land it is on, the sports teams, studying? No it is none of these things. It is a made up label that is only understood as a concept.

So looking RIGHT NOW, directly…
Where is the ‘self’? Point to it.

[Jenness]

So I like this metaphor… what is a university? Is it the buildings, the people, the land it is on, the sports teams, studying? No it is none of these things. It is a made up label that is only understood as a concept.

So looking RIGHT NOW, directly…
Where is the ‘self’? Point to it.

I like that metaphor! No self that I can find. Just a few things like thoughts and emotions squished into where the boundaries identified as the body, and then as a whole slapped with a concept of self, this group of things is the self. I can throw thoughts and emotions outside the body as well, which is scary and confusing because I thought, especially emotions were produced in the body. Tensions do tend to stay located where I locate the body. And then everything else is labeled as not self. What happens to them (whether something knocks in them, or whether they make a movement) doesn’t seem to translate into sensations in the body, so it’s grouped separately

[graceabounds]

Yes tensions often cling to the body, but see how much of this is habitual labeling as well… My” anger is in “my” chest; “my” fear in “my” stomach or throat etc.
But it’s all just sensation, all just passingweather, all just happening. Is there need for a “me” to own it?

The outside world is just as immediate, just as sensation-based, but labeled “not-self.”

Try letting go of all boundaries, for a breath.
Let thoughts, emotions, sounds, and sensations be unassigned. no “inside,” no “outside,” no “me,” no “not-me.”
What’s left?

Is there a self anywhere, or just experience, locationless, centerless?

[Jenness]

On retreat this week and will be back next week!

[graceabounds]

❤️
enjoy!

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Yes tensions often cling to the body, but see how much of this is habitual labeling as well… My” anger is in “my” chest; “my” fear in “my” stomach or throat etc.

It all gets labeled automatically as mine, again and again

But it’s all just sensation, all just passingweather, all just happening. Is there need for a “me” to own it?

No need to, but a definite fear still predicting there’d be a problem with no self labels, that continues to function

The outside world is just as immediate, just as sensation-based, but labeled “not-self.”

Have realized I discount a lot of the outside world as not interesting, like random house objects etc., a slight ignoring or neglecting, and when I don’t , they’re much more beautiful , but it’s also a bit overwhelming if all these things now have a charge and isn’t ignored

Try letting go of all boundaries, for a breath.
Let thoughts, emotions, sounds, and sensations be unassigned. no “inside,” no “outside,” no “me,” no “not-me.”
What’s left?

A fear that says “don’t you dare ignore me! Something bad’s going to happen, trust me” , and an ease and okayness and sense of beauty

Is there a self anywhere, or just experience, locationless, centerless?

Just experience , centerless, location labels are still there, and then my mind gets confused when those dissipated when looked at, and then a strong habit to relabel and refocus attention to the body and self parts

[graceabounds]

A fear that says “don’t you dare ignore me! Something bad’s going to happen, trust me” , and an ease and okayness and sense of beauty

Great!
Now is this thought predictive Take a look...

a definite fear still predicting there’d be a problem with no self labels, that continues to function

OK, now drop into the embodied component of this fear. Where is it exactly?
Stay there. Just raw sensation.

Now look again, from there.
What exactly would break if the self-label were never again applied?
Would breathing stop?
Would walking stop?
Would taxes go unpaid? :)

Again, is this thought of a problem predictive?

And ultimately is there a self actually experiencing this fear? Or is it just raw energy, labeled after the fact?


quote]Have realized I discount a lot of the outside world as not interesting, like random house objects etc., a slight ignoring or neglecting, and when I don’t , they’re much more beautiful , but it’s also a bit overwhelming if all these things now have a charge and isn’t ignored[/quote]

Wonderful. What is overwhelmed? Can you describe what happens?

[Jenness]

Great!
Now is this thought predictive Take a look...

Nothing happens in the moment. In terms of affecting my behaviors negatively, when I let go of the first layer of controlling clinging to self, there’s a bit of a pull back and check out to pull away from fear and sadness, I do seem to be looser with and not as present, but when i let go of that layer, and come into contact with everything including the fear, then it doesn’t seem to affect ability to function, just uncomfortable

OK, now drop into the embodied component of this fear. Where is it exactly?
Stay there. Just raw sensation.

Fear is in the head and face and the limbs and outside area of my torso. Today there also sadness, and it’s in the solar plexus , a tightness, and then when that’s cracked open, just a feeling of new area being exposed to air, and weirdly then can’t find sadness without tensing back up

Now look again, from there.
What exactly would break if the self-label were never again applied?
Would breathing stop?
Would walking stop?
Would taxes go unpaid? :)

Breathing and walking would be fine. I suspect taxes would be fine as well. It’s the social perfectionism it’s worried about and the acceptance of the lack of self-worth that it would feel if it let go of that perfectionism, and feel the reality of people will think what they think about me and i won’t ever even know really know for most people what they think. Helping to feel the sadness of more acceptance of, the self and world will never be what i want it to be, or what there’s a thought about what it needs to be for there to be happiness.

Again, is this thought of a problem predictive?

No, I’m not going to be that different in the short term whether or not there’s a self label, and in fact, likely “better” for what I want if less self label.

And ultimately is there a self actually experiencing this fear? Or is it just raw energy, labeled after the fact?

No self, just a very strong urge to grab something, anything to label self

Wonderful. What is overwhelmed? Can you describe what happens?

Idea of self feeling overwhelmed, too much information coming in, so it thinks it can’t focus on what’s “important” for “safety”