Looking for a guide

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Who/what would need to be certain? Who/what needs to know?

There is no one needs to be certain.

The question comes up because a couple weeks ago, you asked me if I was certain that there was no separate self and if I could say with certainty that it had never been the case. (The answer is no). And more recently, you had said something about the ongoing unwinding - how even after you’ve seen through self, it “feels” like there’s a self as the nervous system adjusts and adapts, before it’s quite conclusively seen through. That feels like where things are right now.

There isn’t any certainty here, but it feels like it might not be a problem, and might arrive in its own time.

But where is that one?
Can you find the one who is “uncertain”? Or is there just a thought that says “uncertainty” — floating like any other?
What does seeing this (uncertainty/certainty as a thought) makes of your question? What happens to the self that needs to be certain? Does it exist (description please)? What is underneath this question (when dropped)? To whom am I talking to here? 'Lanie' talking to 'Rali', and 'Lanie' needs to be certain? OR there are just two streams of thoughts interacting and influencing each other – reshaping themselves in the process?

Uncertainty is just a thought. A complicated thought, based on subtle expectations and comparisons between “then” and “now” which is thoughts on thoughts on thoughts.

I think subtle expectations come into play here. Of a gate, of crossing some kind of threshold - instead, it’s been just incremental steps down a path.

I can’t find the one that is uncertain or one that needs certainty. Sometimes there is clarity that feels like blue sky. Sometimes there are glimpses of clarity that feel like spotting a patch of blue on a cloudy day. And sometimes there are just clouds.

I like what you said about two streams of thoughts interacting. That’s a nice way of putting it.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

Yeah… there seems to be a lot of mater metaphors for this kind of thing. The flow, the stream, the river… of course water doesn’t choose or have preferences; there are a multititude of complicated causes and conditions that dictate it going this way and that.

Can you find anywhere where “Lanie” autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
Can anything be found for which “Lanie” is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No. Everything that this character is responsible for arises out of interdependence and a complex interplay of different systems. The level to which Lanie takes responsibility is dependeint on another web of conditioning, motivation, energy, relative importance, other responsibilities, and a million other things.

Certainty is a thought.
Exactly. A thought — which appears in what?

A thought that just appears.

Can anything confirm that what was never there… isn’t there?

Yes

It’s like asking for proof that a mirage is gone. The only “proof” is that you’re no longer chasing it.
And isn’t that what’s already happening?

Yes

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

And more recently, you had said something about the ongoing unwinding - how even after you’ve seen through self, it “feels” like there’s a self as the nervous system adjusts and adapts, before it’s quite conclusively seen through. That feels like where things are right now.

You’re absolutely right. The system can still “feel like” there’s a self even after the self has been seen through. That’s not a problem; it’s just how the story from a lifetime of conditioning around sensations unwinds. Patterns still run, echoes still echo. But here’s the important part:
The presence of “self-like” sensations doesn’t mean the self is back.
It just means the system is integrating. That “feels like” is part of the processing — not a sign that anything real has returned.
Certainty isn’t about what shows up next. It’s not about having no more thoughts of self, or no more resistance, or hitting some final state.
Certainty is about seeing how the illusion works. So is there any unclarity on how the illusion is formed and how it works? You always speak with so much clarity on that matter - seeing that “self” was always just a thought claiming ownership after the fact, a narrator taking credit for what was already happening on its own.
And once that’s seen clearly, the appearance of self doesn’t fool you in the same way. And that is what you are reporting with each of your replies. The only problem is your expectation that it shouldn't appear at all. You can watch it arise, like a reflex, and smile, knowing it’s empty. You don’t need it to go away before knowing it was never real.
The illusion doesn’t have to vanish to be seen through. It just has to be understood — not as an idea, but through direct looking.
I think you are mistaking certainty/clarity with constant/permanent noticing/looking:

I can’t find the one that is uncertain or one that needs certainty. Sometimes there is clarity that feels like blue sky. Sometimes there are glimpses of clarity that feel like spotting a patch of blue on a cloudy day. And sometimes there are just clouds.

The recognition of the illusion might not always be present — and that’s okay too. It fades in and out like any other perception. Sometimes the system gets pulled back into habit, and the old lens slips on. But once the illusion’s been seen through, it doesn’t hold the same weight. You can’t quite believe in it in the same way, even if it shows up again. It’s like finding out Santa Claus is a man in a red suit. Just because he puts the red suit back on does not mean you are fooled. You still know it’s a man in a red suit. This initial shift (of seeing how the illusion is formed and why it happens) is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. You are still getting a warm feeling around Christmas — the main story is gone, but the echoes haven’t quieted yet. However, that doesn’t mean that you are uncertain of why all of this happens. This is the certainty I am talking about

So no, the self doesn’t return. There’s just a moment where the illusion wasn’t recognized — and even that is seen, eventually. You don’t need constant clarity to know the illusion is empty. You only need to see — even once — how it works. That’s the ground the rest of the unwinding happens on.

No need to fight the "selfing" or fix it — just keep looking gently: what is it that claims to be “adjusting”? Can it be found?
The felt sense of “I” may still appear, but that doesn’t confirm a self — it only confirms that memory, habit, and sensation are still flowing, like weather passing through. Nothing needs to be pushed away. Just don’t mistake the cloud for a person.

I think subtle expectations come into play here. Of a gate, of crossing some kind of threshold - instead, it’s been just incremental steps down a path.

Yes, exactly. Expectations often shape the way this is imagined — like there’s going to be a dramatic gate with fireworks, a big spiritual moment that flips everything on its head. But in most cases, it’s more like you described: subtle, gentle, often unremarkable… just step after step down a path that was always here and that never ends.
That feeling — that flicker of “selfing” — doesn’t undo the seeing. It’s just the system processing the change.
Clarity isn’t about the illusion never arising again… it’s about recognizing it for what it is when it does. That’s the certainty: not a permanent state, but understanding how the illusion works.
Sometimes recognition is vivid. Sometimes it fades. That’s okay. The story might still appear, but you’ve already seen the strings. No one crosses the gate. The gate was a mirage. And the path? It was already here, under your feet the whole time. So instead of walking it with tension — eyes fixed on some imagined destination — just notice what’s here. Breathe. Smile. Let the story soften. There is no path. There is no final arrival/destination. Only this - already complete, already perfect. To “improve” suggest that there is something wrong with it, like it can be different than what it IS. But can it be in a different way than it is now, perfect?
Life isn’t meant to be lived in some ideal way…but merely to be LIVED. Boldly, wildly, beautifully, uncertainly, imperfectly, magically LIVED.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for that response; that was really helpful.

The presence of “self-like” sensations doesn’t mean the self is back.

Useful… I think I was still looking for sensations or an ongoing state or experience that would confirm this.

Certainty is about seeing how the illusion works.So is there any unclarity on how the illusion is formed and how it works?

That’s helpful. Certainty isn’t a feeling, and it’s not the removal of the illusion. Certainty is knowing it is an illusion and how it works. And after that, the illusion can do what it wants - it can come and go on its own schedule.

The only problem is your expectation that it shouldn't appear at all. You can watch it arise, like a reflex, and smile, knowing it’s empty. You don’t need it to go away before knowing it was never real.

This nailed it. It’s like being certain that the sky is blue, even on a cloudy day.

The recognition of the illusion might not always be present — and that’s okay too. It fades in and out like any other perception.

Yeah, that seems really true. This was helpful,

what is it that claims to be “adjusting”? Can it be found?

No one is adjusting.

I felt a sense of “I” this morning around my eyes, and instead of having to go through the whole process of confirming what was sensation and thought and assumption, it just naturally and with no fuss revealed itself as a facade, or convenience, or habit - not a belief.

But can it be in a different way than it is now, perfect?

Yes, but….

I understand that things cannot be different than how they are. What is just is.

There’s striving here to change things or to wish for something different. Like no one has relaxed into no-self - the habits of controlling are still active, even with no one operating the controls.

I’m dealing with some difficult life stuff right now. Changes need to be made. I can see that when there are options, I will take them, and at the present moment, the options aren’t really presenting themselves. That doesn’t stop the mind from planning or searching for something that could be an option down the line, or regretting passing things up in the past. So yes, this just is what it is, and no one is in control, but there’s still a feeling of stuckness and dissatisfaction on top of present circumstances. I know these are just thoughts and labels but it doesn’t change the experience of the moment or the energy to try and control things, even though no one is doing it.

Is this another one of the times of the clouds blocking the blue sky and this just needs acceptance? Is this just what’s happening and the nervous system will continue to unwind?

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Wonderful looking!!!

Yes, but….

I understand that things cannot be different than how they are. What is just is.

There’s striving here to change things or to wish for something different. Like no one has relaxed into no-self - the habits of controlling are still active, even with no one operating the controls.

I’m dealing with some difficult life stuff right now. Changes need to be made. I can see that when there are options, I will take them, and at the present moment, the options aren’t really presenting themselves. That doesn’t stop the mind from planning or searching for something that could be an option down the line, or regretting passing things up in the past. So yes, this just is what it is, and no one is in control, but there’s still a feeling of stuckness and dissatisfaction on top of present circumstances. I know these are just thoughts and labels but it doesn’t change the experience of the moment or the energy to try and control things, even though no one is doing it.

Is this another one of the times of the clouds blocking the blue sky and this just needs acceptance? Is this just what’s happening and the nervous system will continue to unwind?

Yes — this is exactly one of those “cloudy sky” moments. And you’re seeing it clearly.
That’s the illusion still doing what it does. But notice — now it’s noticed rather than being believed or fought with. That’s the unwinding.
Sometimes the system still spins stories. It says, “This shouldn't be happening. This means something is wrong. Something’s missing. There’s still work to do.”
And that’s okay. That’s part of the path. Even that is the path. It presents an opportunity for a change in perception.
The pursuit of and the attachment to perfect states tells you something that you have been avoiding. Why do you need this to happen all the time? It’s a form of identification (a secondary thought). Being at peace, being light, having blue skies with no clouds is a label of a state/experience, it’s a (enlightened) story. So ask yourself – why do you need this to be happening all the time? Is it running away from “unpleasant” experiences? Craving for peace is fear of conflict, craving for a love, acceptance, and oneness is fear of rejection, craving for eternal bliss is fear of death and so on. So ask yourself : what if there is no ultimate love, peace, and equanimity, what if it is always like it is now – what does that bring up? Where is the contraction and how does it feel? Is there a resistance to that idea? What story is responsible for that? These are the questions that you should be asking and staying with these “scary” sensations that they bring.
Suffering is built on unfulfilled expectations, unmet wants and desires. Wanting “more” is the flip side of lacking “something”. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. There is nothing missing in this, when the story is removed, so the question that arises is – what belief is stopping you with being OK with the present moment as it is right now? Whatever underlying belief you have it has to be questioned and “unpleasant “ sensation allowed to be and felt fully. So if you feel that something should be different you are still dealing with the 4th and 5th fetters– wants and desires, and avoidance/aversion - which brings you back to fear, anger, shame, and guilt, that you are trying to avoid.

What you can do in stay just with the raw sensations of a "want" – examine if there is something in them that suggest a lack (like in the case of being hungry :) ). You can observe the attachments, desires, expectations. If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it. If not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release. Check:
Is there an “I” that engages with the “wants”. Is there a doer that responds to the wants? Staying in the gap of the “want” is an opportunity for the thought to reorganise around what really is happening. Seeing the conditioned thoughts that arise with the sensations, checking their validity (is this really happening) – just noticing, staying in being. If there is action to be taken it will take itself – like the want to eat would resolve in “you” going to the fridge… And that is what I mean with “If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it.
For a day or two, just watch the wanting that comes up.
In what area does it show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt?
You don’t need to do anything but notice and acknowledge. Watch what happens, and notice how it feels. Feel the gap between wanting and not having, and observe what sensations are triggered when wanting appears. Bringing attention to the mechanism of wanting will reveal curious things.
Wanting things to be different is just that — wanting. It’s not a failure. It doesn’t require fixing. It’s not proof that something’s wrong or incomplete. It’s just a ripple. A sensation. A conditioned thought.
And things… will happen the way they happen.
Even the illusion that “someone” is in charge is just part of the scenery — not a problem, not a mistake. Just a passing cloud. What’s different now is that the illusion is being seen, not believed. That’s the shift.
So yes — let the nervous system unwind. Let the weather move through.
But notice: it’s happening on its own. Without management. Without “you.”
Even that sense of trying to manage is just part of the river. No swimmer needed. Isn’t it already flowing?
Spontaneous actions are happening, and so is the thought story. There is a story about trying to be in control and not succeeding and the feelings of guilt and shame that arise with the failure. It is interesting to watch how all this works, how thoughts of lacking and wanting create a ripple of sensations, and how you can’t control any of it. Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?
In simple everyday life, what is happening is happening. Decisions are made, actions are taken, things get done. Thinking about what should be done, thinking about what needs to be done, and planning the next step flow with whatever is happening. There’s controlling… without a controller. Just as walking happens, breathing happens — controlling (more like a story of) can still arise. But it’s not done. It’s not personal. It’s just movement. Weather. A conditioned unfolding. Actions are taken — but there’s no doer behind them. There’s only the story about a doer, and the habit of assigning control to an imagined center. Hands and feet are doing their thing and thoughts are flying by. What is in control of that? Think about it. If I ask “What is in control of the weather?,” what would your answer be? Thoughts? Clouds? Or maybe the wind?

The end of trying to change what is starts with seeing that the doer is imagined. Still, though, "actions" are taken and "choices" are made with or without the narration of events. The story continues. When a story is seen as a story, not actuality, it can carry on without making things and events overly serious and dramatic. The story can be taken lightly; it can be entertaining and fun, as well as serious when a situation asks for seriousness.
What you will notice is, if actions are not taken when “wanting control” shows up, the focus shifts to something else. This pattern needs to be seen, then it can drop away. Then there is a relaxing into being and enjoyment of what is happening, rather than trying endlessly to make things go in a particular way and becoming upset when they don’t.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Just in time, a video was made that is exactly on our latest topic :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8xNV_L9rB8
Enjoy!
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

These questions were really profound and insightful and felt like they really nailed something I’ve been struggling with. Thank you.

And happy new year! We all swim in the freezing cold ocean on new years… any random SA traditions?

The pursuit of and the attachment to perfect states tells you something that you have been avoiding. Why do you need this to happen all the time?

I’m avoiding anxiety. I’m not naturally an anxious person - no one would describe me that way - but I work really hard to (seem) very calm, confident, and in control. When I start to feel this eroding there’s a deep internal panic. There’s a strong desire to ensure the internal state of grasping and control looks more like the external state of peace and calm.

(This answer kinda surprised me - it feels very true but I didn’t think that’s what I’d write when I read the question initially).

why do you need this to be happening all the time? Is it running away from “unpleasant” experiences?

I need to be deeply peaceful and calm all the time so as to be maximally helpful to others and not be an inconvenience to anyone. This is a deeply held strategy to keep myself safe and in connection with others.

There’s a real fear of emotional messiness and being needy. Those were unacceptable states in my family when I was young and there’s a powerful avoidance of that now. I’ve mastered appearing quite relaxed, calm, and happy. The meditative path was, in my initial belief, supposed to make this state more true and honest and penetrate deeper.

And yes - there’s no one who is messy or needy. This is all just unwinding and beliefs and fears bubbling to the surface.

Craving for peace is fear of conflict, craving for a love, acceptance, and oneness is fear of rejection, craving for eternal bliss is fear of death and so on. So ask yourself : what if there is no ultimate love, peace, and equanimity, what if it is always like it is now – what does that bring up? Where is the contraction and how does it feel? Is there a resistance to that idea? What story is responsible for that?

Right now, I feel a lot of anxiety and neediness, mostly about my husband’s illness. I have an image in my mind of an ideal caregiver who is calm and peaceful and patient and can accept any of the weirdness that comes from a severe neurological disease. I try to be completely loyal to my husband and not complain about him or tell others the crazy shit he does. I don’t burden extended family with stories about how hard it is and how alone I feel. I don’t tell my friends the bad parts. Everyone thinks I’m doing great and they don’t realize the extent to which I’m struggling and he’s changed.

The cost is long term eating-disorder battles have come up again. I gained a whole bunch of weight when he was diagnosed, and I haven’t been able to lose it. I developed some substance abuse problems - more moderate now, but still present. The grasping and clinging to control has to have a release valve somewhere and this is where the body feels it can safely lose control. I don’t feel like myself.

The control I used to have over my body is gone, which is distressing, but I also recognize that that control was fear based. All of my neuroses used to flood into body control; when life became too much that system collapsed.

So there’s a craving for serenity and peacefulness and acceptance. If it’s always like it is right now, that brings up huge anxiety and panic. My body and my partner are both beyond my control and both have a huge amount of clinging and grasping and neediness surrounding them.

There’s a real contraction over not being seen as having things together and under control. There’s a strong fear of rejection and resentment rising to the surface over the unfairness of being expected to carry something like this alone.

I can see that these are stories - I’m solely responsible for all of this, I have to keep it all together, I will be rejected if I don’t - but they feel quite personal and there’s certainly a part that believes them. And the sense of alienation I feel from myself - there’s the obvious question of who doesn’t recognize “self” in this case. And it is empty. Nothing is there, except energy and expectations for how I should be in the world.

Wanting “more” is the flip side of lacking “something”. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. There is nothing missing in this, when the story is removed, so the question that arises is – what belief is stopping you with being OK with the present moment as it is right now?

The belief that “I” need to always be in control in order to remain connected to others, and the inverse, the belief that messiness and neediness are unacceptable states.

The one that needs to be in control isn’t really someone that exists. It’s an extended series of thoughts, a strategy.

Is there an “I” that engages with the “wants”. Is there a doer that responds to the wants?

I don’t think so. Wants arise from conditions. As an example, there might be a feeling of exhaustion from maintaining control in one area. A desire will come up for something - maybe a drink - and it just happens. There can be a mental blaming/shaming, but it will likely happen anyway, if the preceding events have triggered it.

In what area does it (wanting) show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt?

The biggest lack? Wanting to feel acceptance and serenity about my husband, wanting guarantees of connection with others in difficult times, and wanting control of my body would be the biggest ones.

While there is a desire for control, the sense of doership is small. The quest for control happens by itself. The mind goes immediately to planning and scheming and finding ways to “get” these things. It creates eating and exercise plans, social ideas, and maps out ways of being in the world and around others that communicate peace and serenity and control. It is automatic. It mimics a doer, when I first started thinking about this question it felt like a doer, but I don’t think it is. It just happens, even if I'm actively trying to focus on something else these conditioned thoughts come up.

Isn’t it already flowing?

Yeah. I have been approaching this in a more “hands off” way lately. When a craving comes up, like to buy wine on the way home, I don’t fight it anymore and I don’t get stuck in the spiral of self-anger, judgement, and blame. I just do it, but try to do it more mindfully. I think it’s helpful - I think there’s been more internal recognition that it didn’t help the way I hoped it would, and it loses some of its power that way.

Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?

The feeling of being out of control is just part of the flow of things, part of the unwinding. There is no one to be messy or to be out of control; there’s just this.

Without the labels, there’s maybe butterflies, a stirring, an alertness, but mostly it’s story.

What is in control of that? Think about it. If I ask “What is in control of the weather?,” what would your answer be? Thoughts? Clouds? Or maybe the wind?

Yeah… that’s beautiful. There is just an unwinding here and the “I” in charge of making the unwinding happen is just an illusion.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

And happy new year! We all swim in the freezing cold ocean on new years… any random SA traditions?

Happy new year to you too! Main difference is that we are in the middle of hot summer here. I still can’t get used to hot Christmas without snow – I come originally from Europe. We do sometimes jump in the pool on new year’s but it is not as crazy as a freezing ocean :)

You did some really deep digging here…
You shared something so honest. That anxiety around asking for help, the fear of appearing weak, of needing support, this is where the focus needs to be . And just naming that is powerful — not because “you” did the brave thing, but because it was seen. That fear can feel personal, like it says something about you. But can we look even deeper?

The belief that “I” need to always be in control in order to remain connected to others, and the inverse, the belief that messiness and neediness are unacceptable states.

There’s a real contraction over not being seen as having things together and under control. There’s a strong fear of rejection and resentment rising to the surface over the unfairness of being expected to carry something like this alone.

There’s a real fear of emotional messiness and being needy. Those were unacceptable states in my family when I was young and there’s a powerful avoidance of that now. I’ve mastered appearing quite relaxed, calm, and happy. The meditative path was, in my initial belief, supposed to make this state more true and honest and penetrate deeper.

Who/what exactly is it that would think “you” are weak?
Who are the “others” that might judge “you”?
Where are these others? Are they here, in this moment? Or are they thoughts too — imagined reactions, internalized voices, roles from memory?
Just like “Lanie,” “others” are part of the same dream. A thought says “they’ll think I’m weak,” and in a flash, it builds an entire audience. But there is no audience. There is only this. Only what’s happening. And even that thought ,“I might look weak”, is not personal. It’s just a ghost of an old survival strategy. No one’s doing it. No one’s thinking it.
So what happens when the entire cast drops?
No one needing to be strong. No one who could be weak. No one watching. No one to protect. No center, no outside. Just this.
The idea of a “me” managing how “others” perceive “me” is just another play of the illusion. It feels tight because it’s trying to hold together a structure that was never real. But when it's seen, there's no need to push it away. It unwinds on its own, like all stories do when they're not believed.
And then what’s left? Warmth. Space. No self. No other. Just what’s happening. Already free.

But look even a layer deeper…
It’s amazing to see how clearly the layers are being revealed, how thought wants to explain, narrate, trace things back to childhood, meaning, trauma, patterns, identity. And that’s okay. It’s all part of what’s unfolding.
But notice: does that analysis ever resolve anything?
Or does it just create another story — about why you feel anxious, afraid, tense, uncertain?
You don’t have to figure this out. You don’t need to explain why something is showing up.
Instead… feel it. Become a bestie with it
Feel what the body is doing when the fear arises. Feel the shape of anxiety — not the cause, but the raw data of it. The buzzing, the pulling, the pressure, the heat.
Even “anxiety” isn’t anxiety per se — that’s just a name we give it. In raw experience, it’s often energy preparing to act – mobilizing, alertness, readiness, aliveness. Not something gone wrong, just a body doing what it does. Let it be there, without resistance. Without needing it to mean anything. Just see it in a different light.
And most importantly — without needing it to go away.

This is the real unwinding - not the solving of a puzzle, but the softening into sensation - the dropping of the storyteller. Let the story float by. Let the nervous system do its thing. Nothing to manage. No one managing.
And when the story ofconditioned resistance is gone — what’s left of the story is just what needs to be done. Simple. Clear. Not personal. If that means reaching out, asking for help, leaning into support… then that’s what’s happening. Not weakness, not failure. Just life, doing what it does.
There’s nothing to fix. No core wound that must be healed first. No childhood event to decode.
Just this: sensation. This moment. And the silence under it.
That’s where it all unwinds. And it’s already happening.
With you in this...
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Happy near year! Hope you had a good new years - I very unexpectedly had a chance to go to a sweat lodge, which is an Indigenous spiritual practice. I thought it would be a home made sauna and some drumming, but it was SO INTENSE. It was pitch dark, so hot that we all had to sit under towels and I still got burned, and there was really incredible drumming and singing and prayers in Indigenous languages while burning cedar and sage and other herbs. It was a really special experience, but my nervous system is still a bit on edge now, two days later.

Who/what exactly is it that would think “you” are weak?
Who are the “others” that might judge “you”?
Where are these others? Are they here, in this moment? Or are they thoughts too — imagined reactions, internalized voices, roles from memory?

The “others” are voices in my head of my parents, combined with the imagined presence of everyone who has ever admired my ability to hold everything together while remaining calm, along with additional, new people that I hope to impress with this mirage of a skill. It’s also a representation of people that I am judging for being messy and chaotic so I can show them that I’m in control (and they’re not). It’s also a lot of people that I feel a bit insecure around and it’s an attempt to impress them.

This really seems like a very ego and self-worth driven strategy.

So what happens when the entire cast drops?

It’s sustained by habit, although the motivation wanes with no imaginary people to impress.

There are no established ways of being any other way. Being open about how I’m feeling or setting boundaries on what I’m able to take on are things that come about in baby steps. The territory is unfamiliar and the actual people in my life unfamiliar with me being more vulnerable.

It’s amazing to see how clearly the layers are being revealed, how thought wants to explain, narrate, trace things back to childhood, meaning, trauma, patterns, identity. And that’s okay. It’s all part of what’s unfolding.
But notice: does that analysis ever resolve anything?
Or does it just create another story — about why you feel anxious, afraid, tense, uncertain?

Yeah, I’ve been thinking a lot about that lately. I think the anger stage doesn’t resolve anything, but seems to be a common (or even necessary) step in moving towards healing. I stayed in anger and blame for a long time, and there was certainly some unwinding that happened there. I can feel the body moving on now, on its own, and anger dropping, and stories about victims and villains dropping, leaving just energy that needs to be met.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
That sweat lodge sounds intense and beautiful. And maybe just what the nervous system needed to burn a little more illusion away.

It’s beautiful how clearly things are revealing themselves — the softening around anger, the dropping of villains and victims, the sense that the body is unwinding itself.
That said… there’s one thing we can look even closer at.

I think the anger stage doesn’t resolve anything, but seems to be a common (or even necessary) step in moving towards healing. I stayed in anger and blame for a long time, and there was certainly some unwinding that happened there. I can feel the body moving on now, on its own, and anger dropping, and stories about victims and villains dropping, leaving just energy that needs to be met.

Anger, blame, shame — even healing — these are all interpretations of raw energy.
And they’re not wrong — they’re just stories. Not personal, not “your” path, not special truths. Just ways the thought system has explained what's arisen.

...leaving just energy that needs to be met.

Yes. That’s the key. There never was a villain. There never was a victim.
There was never anything wrong with the mechanism — just a misunderstanding of what it was doing.
The anger wasn’t a “stage” on a journey. That’s why I asked if the analysis (story about anger with that and that) ever resolve anything.
What’s called ‘anger’ is just a sensation — heat in the chest, tight jaw, quick breath, maybe thoughts of blame or defence. But no protector. No defender. No story, unless one gets added. When the label “anger” drops, what's left? Just rising energy. Movement. Tightness. Maybe action. Anger is not a sensation – anger is a conditioned label pointing to a sensation. You can call it anger, you can call it frustration, but you can also call it adrenalin/readiness to act. It is all an interpretation.
But not anger. And no angry one.
Anger was a coping mechanism, a protection response in the story of Lanie, where something/someone (a body, Lanie) is threatened. It never needed resolving — just seeing.
What we call ‘shame’ is a bundle of sensations and thoughts that often arise when there's a perceived loss of connection or approval. But that’s already the interpretation. In direct experience, it’s just tension… heat… a tightening in the chest or belly. No ‘system’ doing anything. Just this.
Have a deeper look...
Are there separate/discrete sensations, OR continuous feeling with different intensity? We call a peak in that intensity anger, or a trough depression, but these are just labels that artificially cut and make stuff out of nothing. So it is important to notice the story and then drop it - not resolve it.
And when it’s seen clearly, when the story drops, what’s left isn’t “healing” — it’s simplicity. Just the original sensation/feeling (verb) — heat, contraction, tightness — free of narrative.
It’s not that you’ve been healing. This does not need healing – it is perfect the way it is – it is beyond qualities and flaws to be added or removed, accepted or rejected. What’s happening is that the thought system is finally getting out of its own way – self-organising. Nothing personal. Nothing needing redemption.
So when something uncomfortable arises — “a spike of old anger, a shadow of shame” — can you pause, and feel it before the label lands?
Not “anger.” Not “healing.” Just movement. Just sensation/feeling.
Just life.
That’s all that ever needed to be met.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

A few days ago you suggested spending time in the gap between what I want and what’s actually here, and just looking at the sensations. That’s been really fruitful; there’s a lot of sensations that come up and stories that automatically pop up too. But it’s possible to detach the story, and then the sensation falls away, or stops feeling urgent.

It’s also amazing how often meditators get told to “spend time with whatever is arising right here” and it can somehow end up fresh and powerful, again and again… and yet we still seem to need to be periodically told this, for some reason.

Anger, blame, shame — even healing — these are all interpretations of raw energy.
And they’re not wrong — they’re just stories. Not personal, not “your” path, not special truths. Just ways the thought system has explained what's arisen.

Yeah…. I’ve been sitting with this a lot lately. It’s been becoming clearer. This is describing exactly where I am at the moment.

When the label “anger” drops, what's left?

Yup, great question, and one I’ve been looking at a fair bit lately. It’s a LOT of sensations. It’s an umbrella term, and the mind seems to think it’s essentially anything that has an energy in it. Dropping the label has been really helpful here; the label carries so much stigma and resistance to it, and sometimes a strong shut down response comes online. I’ve been doing a lot of softening around that lately.

I like what you said about how anger never needed resolving, just seeing. And when seen as just a sensation, it unwinds or softens, or becomes something else.

Are there separate/discrete sensations, OR continuous feeling with different intensity? We call a peak in that intensity anger, or a trough depression, but these are just labels that artificially cut and make stuff out of nothing. So it is important to notice the story and then drop it - not resolve it.

I wouldn’t say discrete sensations, but there are differences - sometimes there is heat, or pressure, or nausea, or a feeling of the bottom just dropping out completely. The sensations move around. But they flow into one another; they’re not separate things.

when the story drops, what’s left isn’t “healing” — it’s simplicity. Just the original sensation/feeling (verb) — heat, contraction, tightness — free of narrative.

This sounds insane, but it's also true in my experience.

I can see this is true but there’s a lot of resistance.

I keep doing this with the things in life that I wish were different. Sometimes, the suffering seems to drop. This has worked surprisingly well in things like hard workouts that I desperately want to be over. It’s been harder for things like my relationship with my sister.

can you pause, and feel it before the label lands?

Yeah. I can also drop the label again after reflexively applying it. This has been helpful.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
That sweat lodge sounds intense and beautiful. And maybe just what the nervous system needed to burn a little more illusion away.

It’s beautiful how clearly things are revealing themselves — the softening around anger, the dropping of villains and victims, the sense that the body is unwinding itself.
That said… there’s one thing we can look even closer at.

I think the anger stage doesn’t resolve anything, but seems to be a common (or even necessary) step in moving towards healing. I stayed in anger and blame for a long time, and there was certainly some unwinding that happened there. I can feel the body moving on now, on its own, and anger dropping, and stories about victims and villains dropping, leaving just energy that needs to be met.

Anger, blame, shame — even healing — these are all interpretations of raw energy.
And they’re not wrong — they’re just stories. Not personal, not “your” path, not special truths. Just ways the thought system has explained what's arisen.

...leaving just energy that needs to be met.

Yes. That’s the key. There never was a villain. There never was a victim.
There was never anything wrong with the mechanism — just a misunderstanding of what it was doing.
The anger wasn’t a “stage” on a journey. That’s why I asked if the analysis (story about anger with that and that) ever resolve anything.
What’s called ‘anger’ is just a sensation — heat in the chest, tight jaw, quick breath, maybe thoughts of blame or defence. But no protector. No defender. No story, unless one gets added. When the label “anger” drops, what's left? Just rising energy. Movement. Tightness. Maybe action. Anger is not a sensation – anger is a conditioned label pointing to a sensation. You can call it anger, you can call it frustration, but you can also call it adrenalin/readiness to act. It is all an interpretation.
But not anger. And no angry one.
Anger was a coping mechanism, a protection response in the story of Lanie, where something/someone (a body, Lanie) is threatened. It never needed resolving — just seeing.
What we call ‘shame’ is a bundle of sensations and thoughts that often arise when there's a perceived loss of connection or approval. But that’s already the interpretation. In direct experience, it’s just tension… heat… a tightening in the chest or belly. No ‘system’ doing anything. Just this.
Have a deeper look...
Are there separate/discrete sensations, OR continuous feeling with different intensity? We call a peak in that intensity anger, or a trough depression, but these are just labels that artificially cut and make stuff out of nothing. So it is important to notice the story and then drop it - not resolve it.
And when it’s seen clearly, when the story drops, what’s left isn’t “healing” — it’s simplicity. Just the original sensation/feeling (verb) — heat, contraction, tightness — free of narrative.
It’s not that you’ve been healing. This does not need healing – it is perfect the way it is – it is beyond qualities and flaws to be added or removed, accepted or rejected. What’s happening is that the thought system is finally getting out of its own way – self-organising. Nothing personal. Nothing needing redemption.
So when something uncomfortable arises — “a spike of old anger, a shadow of shame” — can you pause, and feel it before the label lands?
Not “anger.” Not “healing.” Just movement. Just sensation/feeling.
Just life.
That’s all that ever needed to be met.
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

I apologise for the duplicate reply. I saw it still in my draft field and I assumed I haven’t sent it. Here is my reply to your latest…

It sounds like something very deep is being seen and embodied here — not as a grand realization, but as simple, repeated looking.
You said it yourself:

it’s possible to detach the story, and then the sensation falls away, or stops feeling urgent.

Yes! The story carries the urgency, not the sensation. And the more often the story drops — before, or after it appears — the more space there is to just be with whatever’s arising. Without fixing, without rejecting, without needing anything to resolve.

The label carries so much stigma and resistance… and sometimes a strong shutdown response comes online.

Yes and that shutdown isn’t you either. It’s just another wave. Another conditioned reaction. It’s all welcome. You don’t need to stop it — just notice it, gently, before the interpretation.

I wouldn’t say discrete sensations… but they flow into one another.

Perfect. This is a key insight: the mind slices a seamless field into objects — anger, shame, grief, “healing,” “progress,” “failure.” But the field was never broken. The cutting is imagined.

I keep doing this with the things in life that I wish were different. Sometimes, the suffering seems to drop. This has worked surprisingly well in things like hard workouts that I desperately want to be over. It’s been harder for things like my relationship with my sister.

Maybe it helps to ask:
Before the story of “sister” or “relationship” — what’s actually felt?
Is there heat? A contraction? An image?
Where is the problem, without a narrative?
This isn’t about avoiding conflict or pretending things are fine. It's not about tolerating what hurts. It’s about seeing what’s really there, underneath all interpretation. Even if it still hurts — the hurt no longer has a name. It's not your hurt. It's just… sensation/feeling.
So… When the story drops, what’s left isn’t “healing” — it’s simplicity.
And from simplicity, whatever needs to happen — happens. Not because of a self, not because a system is protecting or managing. But just because life flows, as it always has.
You don’t need to fix anything.

The “relationship” with your "sister" — as it appears now — isn’t something fixed or solid. It’s not an object that exists on its own, outside of perception. It’s a story, an interpretation, built from patterns of fear, anger, shame, guilt… all arising here, on your side. And that’s not a problem. It’s just important to notice that what feels like the relationship is actually a swirl of sensations and thoughts — memories, images, old roles — all filtered through conditioning.
So… what happens when those layers are gently allowed?
When fear is felt as fear, not “this thing I feel about her”?
When anger is heat in the body, not a character trait or narrative?
When guilt is just a tightness in the chest — no blame, no wrongness?
What’s left of the “relationship” when those stories are seen for what they are?
And maybe also notice this…
The fact that this matters to you — that you’re willing to sit with discomfort, to look at your own reactions, to not run from it — already reveals something deeper.
The story might say: “there’s fear, shame, guilt, anger…” But what’s underneath that?
There’s care. There’s love. These difficult feelings don’t arise in a vacuum — they arise because something matters. Because connection matters. So even in the midst of conflict, or resistance, or pain… isn’t there already something whole here, something soft, that doesn’t need to be fixed?
Can you include that, too? Not as a belief — but as a felt sense:
Even this tension is a sign of care. Even this pain is rooted in love.
And that love isn’t dependent on the other person changing. It’s already here, woven into the fabric of your attention.

So that relationship is not a fixed thing to fix. Not a knot to untie. Just life — flowing through this particular shape of connection. From that simplicity, new possibilities sometimes emerge.
But whether they do or not, you aren’t trapped in the old interpretation. You never were. Just keep noticing how the story rises — and drops.
That’s already enough.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

I really enjoyed these questions. It feels like whenever I focus on the sensations present in a relationship or the sensations present when around a situation I don’t particularly like, the energy just drops completely. It goes from an internal struggle with impatience or frustration to just… pretty calm. The mind has quieted down; it feels like it lost its hamster wheel.

Before the story of “sister” or “relationship” — what’s actually felt?
Is there heat? A contraction? An image?
Where is the problem, without a narrative?

There’s a really strong contraction in the centre of my chest and another one around my nasal cavity.

… what happens when those layers are gently allowed?
When fear is felt as fear, not “this thing I feel about her”?
When anger is heat in the body, not a character trait or narrative?
When guilt is just a tightness in the chest — no blame, no wrongness?
What’s left of the “relationship” when those stories are seen for what they are?

There’s a loss of self with the loss of the stories. These things that drive me crazy sort of feel like “so what.” Something like boundaries seems to be coming online, where things that I normally believe my sister should change about herself aren’t really my business anymore.

This feels like a cheat code to dropping suffering; why didn’t we start with this?!

But what’s underneath that?

There is certainly care and concern underneath the negative emotions.

Probably all difficult relationships have care and love and fear and anger, or sensations that could be labeled as these. And love and gentleness are part of the same continuum as anger and fear. They’re all moving together.

isn’t there already something whole here, something soft, that doesn’t need to be fixed?
Can you include that, too?

Yeah… I like what you said about love being woven into attention; beautifully put.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

I really enjoyed these questions. It feels like whenever I focus on the sensations present in a relationship or the sensations present when around a situation I don’t particularly like, the energy just drops completely. It goes from an internal struggle with impatience or frustration to just… pretty calm. The mind has quieted down; it feels like it lost its hamster wheel.

Yes… and look at how quietly and naturally that shift happened. Not by solving anything. Not by fixing “her” or fixing “you.” Just by allowing the raw sensation before the story — the contraction, the heat — and watching the whole story soften in response.

This feels like a cheat code to dropping suffering; why didn’t we start with this?!

This isn’t a “cheat code.” It’s actually reality before the mind tries to explain it. The “relationship,” the “problem,” the “should” — those are stories trying to protect something that was never in danger. When those drop, what’s left? Warmth. Care. Maybe even love… not as an idea, but as the space that allows everything else.

Something like boundaries seems to be coming online, where things that I normally believe my sister should change about herself aren’t really my business anymore.

And see, boundaries can arise naturally too, from that same softness. They don’t need to be sharp or defensive. They don’t need to be pushed or explained. They come from clarity, not from resistance.
So when the mind wants to jump back in, to fix, explain, define — just pause, feel, let that space of care be known again.
It was always here.
Next time the “story” starts to build — about her, about what should change, about the relationship — just ask:
What is this really made of right now?
Not yesterday. Not in thought. Not in memory.
Right now — in this moment — can you find anything but sensation?
A flicker in the center of the chest?
A buzz around the nasal cavity?
Heat? Movement? Pressure?
Stay with that. Let that be enough. No need to translate it into meaning. Just this… and the quiet that follows when nothing needs fixing.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

When those drop, what’s left?

(those = stories, relationships, shoulds)

Just the sensations.

I think I’ve fallen into the trap of trying to drop things and am driving myself a wee bit crazy. I keep thinking of common stories that go around my mind and then focusing on the sensations and getting more and more irritated that it’s not “working.” I’ve started “doing” rather than “letting.” And doing implies a doer, a discrete being who chooses and works at this process in search of “success.” And the doer stands directly in the way of the possibility of letting go. The doer reinforces the sense of a self and the sense of ownership of stories.

And so I’m trying to stop doing again. (And yes I see the irony in that statement).

There’s been this ongoing zig zag of moving forward in the process, having an “a-ha” moment, and thinking that “I” figured it out, and now “I” can control the process, followed by trying and trying and getting really frustrated. Every time something is learned, the mind grabs it and assumes a learner learned it. A learner can control things by learning them and that’s a tempting way to identify. But seeing through this learning is coming more easily. Or maybe I just learned about learning and I’m making a bigger problem.

What is this (story) really made of right now?

Sensations in the body. Stiffening, tightening, resistance, defense. And then a story about why these feelings are necessary and what we’re defending against and why it’s important and why it’s important that others understand the point.

I have this visual image of myself being this body constructed from dust, but still standing upright somehow. Initially, there was scaffolding and all manner of contraptions keeping it together and body-shaped, but those have been taken away, one by one. The body is still standing, although it would only take a stiff breeze for it to collapse.

The stories feel like the only thing keeping this dust-body-thing up. Like they’re some sort of dust-glue holding the sense of self together. Who expended all that energy trying to protect a non-self from another non-self? Who has all of these elaborate and draining routines of maintaining contact and connection with others? When the stories are seen through, it’s a relief but there’s also a sense of… what’s left if those are gone?

Right now — in this moment — can you find anything but sensation?
A flicker in the center of the chest?
A buzz around the nasal cavity?
Heat? Movement? Pressure?

I don’t think so. It is all a sensation.

Except I’m also writing this and attempting to do some work which involves reading and writing and thinking and evaluating and comparing. The thoughts and concepts are being worked on and happening. How do these fit into DE? It feels like more than sensation. Are thoughts of this nature a sensation?