deathprep

[rmgmacdo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The British neuroscientist Anil Seth has defined what is commonly understood by the Self as the result of ‘controlled hallucination’, in other words, we construct what we understand by our Self or the ‘I’ sense through memories and thinking (with the memories basically being thinking as well).

What are you looking for at LU? Personal guidance in realising (as opposed to understanding) that there is no real, inherent self.
The fact that LU does not follow a particular 'model' appeals to me. I had recently looked at the 10 Fetters approach but realised that it does not feel right at the moment.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? My understanding is that you give pointers to realisation through asking pertinent questions that are geared to what 'I' as one of the partners in the dialogue 'presents'. I think I ‘get’ much of what is being said in spiritual forums and teachings but there are obviously ‘blindspots’ that a one-to-one will hopefully pick me up on!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have more than thirty years experience in different meditation traditions, each of them lasting several years (Vipassana; Heart-Rhythm Mediation – a Sufi approach; Mahamudra – Pointing-Out-the-Great-Way after Daniel Brown; since a 2019 silent retreat with Adyashanti I have been a membr of a meditation group that follows his teachings; more recently I have also been following Angelo DiLullo whose retreat in the UK I attended in the summer).
My initial interest in meditation came from decades-long suffering (existential despair and anxiety) – which I have also tried to alleviate through years and years of psychotherapy (including a training in Gestalt-Therapy more than 40 years ago) and all kinds of alternative therapies and a combination of spiritual teaching and therapy (with Claus Springborg of Sensing Mind).
I experienced a shift in one of Dan Brown’s retreats in 2011 that took a long time to manifest, but in recent years I have a basic underlying sense of lightness and peace and no experience of existential despair. I am basically content to see what is happening in my life (easier as I’m 75 now ). But I do see my ‘spiritual engagement’ or whatever one may call it also as a way to prepare for my death – although I’m not sure what it means.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Anastacia42]

Good morning

Yes, die before you die.

in recent years I have a basic underlying sense of lightness and peace and no experience of existential despair.

Good. I took your thread to share a recorded meditation pointer recording, on death, as well as the usual guiding.

Here is that link. Be sure to listen to the Introduction.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ksba3zhi9uuz ... hsk1a?dl=0

So...

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[rmgmacdo]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like

.
Yes, Please

Here is that link. Be sure to listen to the Introduction.

Thank you. I have listened to the introduction

post every day.

I’m a bit confused about the requirement/suggestion of posting, every day.
I would not describe myself as a shrinking violet but I am not sure a) what to post b) find the idea of posting anything to a large (?) forum of people quite intimidating and c) posting every day similarly intimidating
Perhaps these reservations are due to the fact that at present I have no idea how this whole process works …

please read the disclaimer

I have read it

please read “Liberation Unleashed is not

ditto

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Call me Ruth please. I am currently in CET but I move between CET and British (Summer) Time. I will let you know when I switch.

How will life change?

I have no idea

How will you change?

I don’t know

What will be different?

I am assuming that what I understand by ‘self’ or ‘I’ will be different. I think at this point I hope to lose a sense of separation although I am not sure what that would be/feel like.

What is missing?

If/when I simply stop and ‘be’, nothing is missing. I guess I would say that what may be missing is this ‘missing nothing’ being permanent and not requiring a conscious effort.
Greetings
Ruth

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ruth,

While others can access our thread, mostly, they don't. It's mostly just you & me here.

You will be posting replies to my posts, questions & pointers. Every day is just a suggestion to keep momentum going. Post when it feels right & fits your schedule.

"I don't know" is a great answer.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[rmgmacdo]

Dear Stacy,
Many thanks for your message and reassuring information regarding the forum.
This is just a wee note to say that I will post as soon as possible (I appreciate the implication of generating momentum) but I’m still working with looming deadlines (plus other stuff), hence I might not be able to post immediately.
Ruth

[Anastacia42]

That is fine, Ruth. Answer the question when you can and then we will move forward.

Loving,

[rmgmacdo]

Lovely, Stacy. Thanks.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

That makes total sense to me – as indicated in my initial post, contemporary neuroscience looks at the self as ‘controlled hallucination’. In art and culture the notion of constructed identities has been around since the 1970s … obviously, different from the notion of no-self at all, but this is just to indicate that the notion of no-self – even if we are not debating theory or philosophy here – doesn’t throw me/Ruth. Experientially, thoughts can be observed as the predominant constructor of self … What remains for me nevertheless (or it could be put in this way: this is where ‘I’ am stuck) is the question of who or what is observing (thoughts, sensations) and that observing faculty or entity or function seems to retain (for ‘me’ at this point) a sense of personhood, of ‘me’, even if it cannot be located exactly … (hence it may well be a kind of ‘afterthought’).

[Anastacia42]

Yes. "I" is completely a thought, an afterthought.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Keep in mind that you are not wriing a book report. Meditate on the pointer and give direct experience replies.

Loving,

[rmgmacdo]

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yep. all clear

[Anastacia42]

Great. Give this pointer a try.

Thank you for using Quote. Please Quote only the question, not all of the instructions.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[rmgmacdo]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please

Hello Stacy
I am only posting one to check with you if this is what you are asking - the descriptions in brackets are by way of indication. I wasn't sure if more detailed description of the sense perception is required.

Eating dinner
Seeing the food (different textures, variation of colour, shape of food on plate; shape of plate)
Smelling the food (vague small of cheese; otherwise not much of a smell, i.e. no noticeable smell)
Sensation of chewing the food: movement of mandibles; masticating; swallowing
Tasting the food.. different tastes (like cheese, vegetables, rice)
Sound: of chewing = the predominant sound
Thinking about eating my dinner; thinking of liking it

[Anastacia42]

No.

It doesn't look anything like the example. Please try again to follow the example precisely.

EXAMPLE

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Thank you,

[rmgmacdo]

Thank you.
Okay, here's another try:

Seeing the food, simply = image/colour
Smelling the food, simply = smell
Chewing the food, simply = sensation
Tasting the food, simply = taste
Hearing the chewing of the food, simply = sound
Thought about eating my dinner, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Yes. Now you've got it.

Thank you,