Stuck here

[Fetterfree05]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is there is no enduring "person" that is "me". I am just a bundle of causes and conditions that believes that there is someone here in my head who is a "doer". I understand the concept of anatta pretty well "intellectually" coming from a buddhist meditation background.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have had several glimpses into the nature of reality and I am looking to stabilize it moment-by-moment. Also, any guidance on how to live embodied in the recognition of the nature of reality while functioning in the world.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
One thing that has been a major impediment to my deepening of the nature of reality is the fact that I underwent an unexpected divorce from a partner and the emotional and significant financial loss that accompanied it. As it was not initiated by me, emotional patterns of betrayal, hurt, sadness, anger etc. keep coming back and I feel find of stuck here although it has been several years. My hope is guidance on overcoming this "trauma".
My spiritual practice of meditation/non-duality/inquiry/direct path has given me a lot of glimpses into the nature of reality and my current goal is to stabilize in it by constant moment-by-moment abiding in awareness. It has been actually pretty amazing to live this way honestly. However, the past "trauma" of my divorce is like a thorn that keeps showing up and I feel stuck here.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Longtime vipassana meditator, adherent of non-dual Direct path approach, Teachings of Rupert Spira, Greg Goode, Sam Harris, Stephen Bodian, Loch Kelly, Christopher Wallis, advaita/tantra, Dzogchen, Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Atmananda Krishna Menon etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[graceabounds]

Hello!

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide. I resonated with what you wrote and would be happy to be present in this inquiry with you. :)

Before we start I want to check in with you about two things:

1)

Please read both the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reservations in regards to them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


2)

I prefer working with people who are highly motivated for this process and want to do exercises/look at questions and stay in communication more or less every day until concluded. This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (travel, life lifing, etc) are welcome as we go along. At the same time the momentum of the inquiry is important. So I’d love to know if this pattern of engagement feels right and is possible for you?

Looking forward,
Becca

[Fetterfree05]

Yes, Thank you.

[graceabounds]

Hello Sanjay,

Excited to explore, stabilize and deepen what you’ve already glimpsed and understood—there is no separate ‘me’ or Self.

Let’s begin with a few questions:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?
5. What is missing?

-Becca

[Fetterfree05]

Hello!
My responses below:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
Nothing really. Life will go on as always.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
The end of clinging.

3. What do you want not to happen?
Do not have a strong preference here.

4. What are you hoping for?
The end of suffering.

5. What is missing?
Nothing really. However, the feelings, memories and emotions of past come back and hold their grip for a while and tend to contract and the separate self is created which seems to suffer :-). What is the way to stabilize the "no-self"?

-Jay

[graceabounds]

Hi Jay,

Life will go on as always

You see it, yes. Life goes on as always. Nothing changes, yet everything is different.

What is the way to stabilize the "no-self"?

Technically No-self doesn’t need stabilization. There was never a self to stabilize or destabilize. Only the old habit of believing in one. And that habit only has power when it goes unseen. So we are going to explore (as you say in your opening answers) ‘moment-by-moment’ how the illusion forms and dissolves.

In this dialogue you’ll be asked to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at… just looking at what is effortlessly there prior to the thoughts coming. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work I'll ask that you answer with honesty, and not rely on philosophy, thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience.

So now an exercise:
Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

-Becca

[Fetterfree05]

Thanks Becca.

I did your exercise:

My direct experience is certainly an experience of "no-self" if I am by myself. It is all a flow of constantly changing phenomena. I can actually "see" this pretty clearly :-)

However, in relation to functioning in the world e.g. interactions with people at work, family etc. the "self" shows up strongly and the duality is in full display. Especially past hurts and relationship loss seems to amplify this.

-Jay

[graceabounds]

Hi Jay,

Whoa, back up a minute. You forgot to give me the second part of the exercise:

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered.

You jumped straight into summary:

My direct experience is certainly an experience of "no-self" if I am by myself

Sounds suspiciously like a thought. A conclusion. So I need to know exactly what comes in direct experience to see where the disconnect is. :)

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that.

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Especially past hurts and relationship loss seems to amplify this.

Do these thoughts arise when you are alone? Do they obscure the direct experience of no Self? What when memories or past hurts surface, what sensations appear in the body?

And these past hurts—where are they, right now? Can they exist without a thought bringing them into this moment? If you don’t think about them, do they persist?

Check directly. Don’t rely on past conclusions.
What’s actually happening now?

I’ve asked many questions here. Please look into each one and use the quote function to reply.
Here’s a 2 minute video explaining it:
https://youtu.be/QCbZYSvnTpc?si=5-dZV1SRIdPC1Nyk


-Becca

[Fetterfree05]

Thanks for sharing the video, I did not know how to use the quotes function.

Sounds suspiciously like a thought. A conclusion. So I need to know exactly what comes in direct experience to see where the disconnect is. :)

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

You are spot on! This is very clear except when it is not (more on this below)...

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that.

Not sure I agree with this statement? Isn't it true that all there is to experience is the "knowing" of it aka the awareness of it. Seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting smelling, thinking are all "known".

Do these thoughts arise when you are alone?

Sometimes. More often, they actually arise more when I have to deal with this person who let me down.

Do they obscure the direct experience of no Self?

Without the story, the direct experience of no-self is very clear to me.

What when memories or past hurts surface, what sensations appear in the body?

Focusing on sensations without attaching to the story-line is a big help for sure. Until the next cycle begins :-) Digestion of these emotions-sensations is an ongoing process.

And these past hurts—where are they, right now? Can they exist without a thought bringing them into this moment? If you don’t think about them, do they persist?

100% agree, the hurt doesn't persist without the thought-sensation-emotion arising. I am very aware of this. However, here is the difficulty - how do you "undo" a traumatic event that actually happened and you are let down. You can't just erase the memory and the actual fallout from that event which was pretty traumatic. Which is why I initiated this post by saying "stuck here" :-).

What’s actually happening now?

Sitting here, drinking my tea, seeing the moon.

[graceabounds]

Hello :)

Not sure I agree with this statement? Isn't it true that all there is to experience is the "knowing" of it aka the awareness of it. Seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting smelling, thinking are all "known".

Yes, but look carefully—what do you actually mean by “knowing”? Are you referring to direct experiencing, or are you subtly referring to a conceptual layer that names, categorizes, and makes sense of what is happening?

Right now, without relying on any thoughts about what is happening, is there actually a “knower” separate from what is being known? Or is there just the raw happening—seeing, hearing, feeling—without an extra layer that claims to “know” it?

Drop any labels for a moment. Instead of calling it “knowing,” just rest in the immediacy of experience. Is there anything missing?

However, here is the difficulty - how do you "undo" a traumatic event that actually happened and you are let down. You can't just erase the memory and the actual fallout from that event which was pretty traumatic

Yes, you can’t erase the memory, nor do you need to. The event happened, and the mind can recall it. But notice: is it the event that is causing suffering right now, or is it the reaction to the memory of the event? The raw memory itself is just an image, a thought appearing—neutral in itself. The pain comes from the belief that it still means something now, that it has power, that it defines something about you or your life.

Let’s go deeper:

Right now, without referencing thought, where is the trauma? Where is the letdown? Do they have an actual presence outside of the story? If no thought brings them up, do they have any substance?

Now, when the thought or sensation arises, just sit with it. Not trying to fix it, not trying to “digest” it, but simply letting it appear and dissolve, like a wave coming and going. When you don’t resist it, does it stay? Or does it pass on its own?

And more importantly—who is it happening to? Can you find the one that was hurt, the one who was let down? Or is there just a sensation, a thought, an emotion, but no actual “me” at the center of it?

Really look.

[Fetterfree05]

Hello!

Took my time this week to process all this. All great pointers...

Yes, but look carefully—what do you actually mean by “knowing”? Are you referring to direct experiencing, or are you subtly referring to a conceptual layer that names, categorizes, and makes sense of what is happening?

Direct experiencing

Right now, without relying on any thoughts about what is happening, is there actually a “knower” separate from what is being known? Or is there just the raw happening—seeing, hearing, feeling—without an extra layer that claims to “know” it?

Drop any labels for a moment. Instead of calling it “knowing,” just rest in the immediacy of experience. Is there anything missing?

Agree, there is only experiencing.

Yes, you can’t erase the memory, nor do you need to. The event happened, and the mind can recall it. But notice: is it the event that is causing suffering right now, or is it the reaction to the memory of the event? The raw memory itself is just an image, a thought appearing—neutral in itself. The pain comes from the belief that it still means something now, that it has power, that it defines something about you or your life.

Let’s go deeper:

Right now, without referencing thought, where is the trauma? Where is the letdown? Do they have an actual presence outside of the story? If no thought brings them up, do they have any substance?

Now, when the thought or sensation arises, just sit with it. Not trying to fix it, not trying to “digest” it, but simply letting it appear and dissolve, like a wave coming and going. When you don’t resist it, does it stay? Or does it pass on its own?

And more importantly—who is it happening to? Can you find the one that was hurt, the one who was let down? Or is there just a sensation, a thought, an emotion, but no actual “me” at the center of it?

100% get all of this. However, the implications of living are not that trivial in the case of a traumatic event. Let me give you an analogy:

Say I am walking down the road minding my own business and I get hit by a car and am paralyzed. I have to live with this for the rest of my life and all the implications of this. What would be the way to overcome this trauma?

Thanks!

[graceabounds]

For the thought that is grasping at analogies to stay entrenched, there is no way to overcome the trauma. Suffering is like oxygen to that mechanism.

But from another lens you’re right of course—this isn’t at all trivial.
So let’s get really clear:
Right now, as you read this, does the event of a divorce exist? Or is it only memory, thought, sensation arising?

Of course, the body carries scars, and life changes in undeniable ways. But does suffering itself have an independent existence, or does it only persist when thoughts feed it?

Even paralysis is only what it is—a shift in physical capacity—The Suffering comes from the story about what should have been, what was taken, what was lost. But is that loss here now if you don’t reference thought?

Look: who, exactly, was hurt? Can you find an actual self that was damaged?

This is not about minimizing pain. It’s about seeing if it ever belonged to you in the first place.

[Fetterfree05]

Been mulling over this all last week.

The shift happened, "I" get it :-).

What a "shit-show", it is pretty funny actually. Now i get this "cosmic joke"!

Not sure what else to say other than letting life unfold.

Thanks!

[graceabounds]

hahahaa perfect :)

Funny how obvious it is once seen. The seeking, the struggle, the trying to get somewhere—it was all part of the dream. The self was never there, only stories, only habits playing themselves out.

But tell me—what’s different? Can you describe how life is moving now, compared to before? What happens when there is interaction with the ex?

[Fetterfree05]

It is obvious once you see it as you said :-)

For 2-3 days, it was a pretty euphoric feeling. Energetic movements in the body stuff kind of thing...Pretty wild.

In interactions with the ex, the old stories (thoughts) seem to pop-up on and off. It is clear if I give them permission to do so, they will take over. Pretty comical.

This is all new, Now what's different is that the "self" imposter has been seen through. Let's see what happens...

Thanks!