Symbols of symbols

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:15 am

What about right and wrong then? What about true and false?
There can definitely be no right or wrong without judgment which can only be formed with thought about what's happening in DE.

True and False seems a bit more tricky. I would say the only thing that could be said to be definitively true is that something is. There is something here experiencing. All the concepts, beliefs, thoughts, judgments, perceptions that make up everyday human experience are false.

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ty0
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby ty0 » Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:56 am

There is something here experiencing.
Is there really something here experiencing apart from experience? What is it?

All the concepts, beliefs, thoughts, judgments, perceptions that make up everyday human experience are false.
They're all false? Including the statement that they're all false? Do you see that true and false are just your definitions/judgements as well?

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Thu Jan 23, 2025 3:41 am

Is there really something here experiencing apart from experience? What is it?
I would say experience is experiencing itself. Truly, it seems more accurate to just stop at something is.
Do you see that true and false are just your definitions/judgements as well?
Yes, I see that.

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Fri Jan 24, 2025 2:01 pm

I read a quote from Ilona in Gateless Gatecrashers last night that spoke to my statement above that “something is” she said, “ the sense of something is “I am.” It’s the sense of being, it’s unshakable and yes, it is always here now. When you close your eyes, it can be felt clearly.”

This really resonated here. This sense of Presence has been strongly felt for quite some time, especially in the mornings during quiet time. Often these days it even appears in strong waves during the work day. There is a general equanimity and easy noticing when thoughts are being strung together to form a story. A sense of non-doership has also been quite apparent in recent months. There’s a lot of ease in this.

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ty0
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby ty0 » Sun Jan 26, 2025 2:23 am

Let's look at it closer. When it's quiet in the morning and you feel this presence, what is this presence? What is "I am"? Is it separate from sound and the other senses?

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Sun Jan 26, 2025 4:56 pm

Hi Tyler,
Thank you for helping me to explore this.
Let's look at it closer. When it's quiet in the morning and you feel this presence, what is this presence? What is "I am"? Is it separate from sound and the other senses?
It seems like the presence can be "tapped in to" any time but it definitely just appears quite palpably when things are quiet and/ or I am very focused on something (sometimes when working). What is it? I have no idea but if I were going to call it something other than Presence, I would call it God. It feels like that which precipitates any experience, that in which experience arises. I don't know what "I am" is, but Ilona's words referring to "I am" felt resonant so maybe this Presence is I Am? It is certainly not separate from sound or other senses, it feels like the medium of sound and senses. I wonder if it is the same as some visual/ audible sensory experiences that I have. There is a tone that is "heard" at all times but not with the ears, I don't always notice it when I'm busy but it is always easily accessible and very noticeable when I'm quiet. There is a static-y, sort of sparkly thing that happens in the visual field that can also be found at any time but is most obvious when the eyes are at rest. Sometimes it's very strong and looks like light rain being blown around by wind and sometimes it's more like static or a sparkly aliveness that fills all the apparent space in the visual field. Within that are all the other sights, sounds, senses of normal human experience. It seems like all of this is part of this feeling of presence. Sometimes the presence is felt like strong waves of energy moving through the body, the head drops, the eye close, taking in the feeling of presence. Last weekend I was at a small local retreat and the presence was very, very palpable. As I read all this, it strikes me as funny because on one hand, it seems like there really aren't words for the presence but yet I've managed to say quite a lot. I'll continue to notice and explore this.

Thank you,
C

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ty0
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby ty0 » Mon Jan 27, 2025 2:42 am

Ok, let's throw away the term "I Am" then, I've never liked that one anyway.
There is a tone that is "heard" at all times but not with the ears, I don't always notice it when I'm busy but it is always easily accessible and very noticeable when I'm quiet. There is a static-y, sort of sparkly thing that happens in the visual field that can also be found at any time but is most obvious when the eyes are at rest.
I experience both of these, and they are more apparent the more quiet the mind is. I wouldn't attribute them to any kind of presence though.

Sometimes the presence is felt like strong waves of energy moving through the body, the head drops, the eye close, taking in the feeling of presence.
I feel these strong, goosebump-like, waves often. Again, it happens more when the mind is quiet. Why would you describe it as presence or the feeling of presence, rather than the sensation that it is?


So, it seems like you experience what you call presence at times when things are quiet, but could you be reifying and defining presence beyond what you experience it as?
It is certainly not separate from sound or other senses, it feels like the medium of sound and senses.
How can it feel like the medium of the senses? What does that feel like? Does it really FEEL that way or is that a guess, a thought? The senses are dull when one is lost in thought, but everything is much more vivid, luminous, alive, and "present" when the mind is quiet. But is vividness, aliveness, luminosity, or presence palpable? Are they any more than labels used to describe experience like "loud" or "blue" or "rough"?

Taking a guess here, but I'm sure you've heard and read a lot of spiritual content about some kind of essence or presence or awareness being the fabric/medium/container of everything you experience. Investigate your experience and see if this is experientially the case. Would this concept occur to you to describe presence if you had never heard of the concept before?

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Mon Jan 27, 2025 3:40 am

Thanks for sharing your experience the visual and audio experiences, I've been curious about it for awhile. Good to know that the mind may be getting more quiet, it nothing else. ;)
Ok, let's throw away the term "I Am" then, I've never liked that one anyway.
haha! okay.
Would this concept occur to you to describe presence if you had never heard of the concept before?
It's possible I have heard similar concepts before but it doesn't sound familiar. The word medium seemed weird when it showed up but I would say it was meant more like a medium in artistic terms as in a substance to which pigments or other materials could be added to create different effects. I'll contemplate the other questions more later and see what comes up.

Thanks as always,

C

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:48 pm

Does it really FEEL that way or is that a guess, a thought?
I can see that it’s just more thought and labels. What I’m calling presence as a feeling is an intense vibration or buzziiness in the body that seems expansive although I don’t really have words to describe it. Regardless, it is only sensation and doesn’t need words. I can see that there is only direct experience and any labels applied to experience is just thought. I’m seeing the strong tendency to want to make sense of experience, to analyze and interpret it but there is only what is.

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Tue Jan 28, 2025 3:02 pm

The “self” is a stream of thoughts. As soon as the word I comes up, it’s followed by thoughts-labels/ interpretations. There is no personal self by any name outside of thought.

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Tue Jan 28, 2025 5:13 pm

And “I” is also a thought.

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ty0
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby ty0 » Wed Jan 29, 2025 1:37 am

And "I is also a thought" is also a thought. Then what does that leave you?

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Wed Jan 29, 2025 3:25 am

Just DE

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ty0
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby ty0 » Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:21 pm

Haha, cool

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BabyLyon
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Re: Symbols of symbols

Postby BabyLyon » Thu Jan 30, 2025 3:49 pm

Yes, very cool! Thank you!


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