One love

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Sonofnature
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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:13 am

It seems so true and simple but it is not unfolding instinctively for me. I am needing to remind myself and go through a process of remembering that these are just thought or unpleasant sensations and that they will pass and that they belong in the moment
.
Look closely at what you wrote here. You say it's not unfolding instinctively for you, and then you say you have to remind yourself. There is no "me" reminding yourself. What is happening is that there are habitual thought patterns that first create the normal suffering, then there are thoughts that remind you of the fact that those are just thoughts and "unpleasant" sensations. Isn't that right? If this is clear, does this not mean that a new line of programming has been installed that sets up reminders when you go into suffering? A program that will gradually de-condition the old patterns.

It's not like awakening will erase the old program in one instant, its a gradual process, and it seems to me that it is happening for you.

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cormacFitz
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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:39 pm

What is happening is that there are habitual thought patterns that first create the normal suffering, then there are thoughts that remind you of the fact that those are just thoughts and "unpleasant" sensations. Isn't that right?
yes that is exactly how its happening sometimes.
Sometimes there is a lot less thinking in the process of remembering my true nature then other times. Its like I can stop the story and take a break from the suffering. Its like I am learning to do this quicker, maybe because I am gaining more confidence in what my true nature is.
I am lucky not to suffer from any mental or physical illness so my suffering is not too severe. Also decades of mindfulness have helped keep me pretty stable. The thing I have been dealing with lately is waking up early- 4 am usually. So I am getting lots of time to practice! there are thoughts that I should be sleeping or that I need more sleep. this morning I was able to fully accept the situation and then these thoughts would just pass very quickly . THis was after what you said yesterday about acceptance of a life that isn't unfolding the way I had planned. I recognized that there was a belief that life should be a different way then what it is. I saw how unhelpful this was.
Also I was having a very busy afternoon in work yesterday and lots of unplanned dramas were unfolding. I could feel some stress arising. Through acceptance of the sensations and thoughts around the situation I was able to accept the situation in an instant and reset my sensations and thoughts. Then when dealing with the people I had to deal with I recognized how labeling them wasn't helpful and dropped this in an instant. then I was able to work efficiently till everything got sorted with no suffering on my part .
If this is clear, does this not mean that a new line of programming has been installed that sets up reminders when you go into suffering?
so yeh this seems to be true
I'll keep working on this

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Sonofnature
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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:16 pm

I am not sure if my point came across, so I'll try to come at it a bit differently.

You describe what is happening when you remember you true nature as something you are actively doing. As if you are the one reminding yourself to get out of your thoughts.

What I was point to was that there is no one doing the reminding and that there are only thoughts, meaning, first the attention is focused on a thought story and then that story is followed by another thought saying something like: "Oh, I'm lost in a story again", followed by (hopefully) a resting of attention in "stillness". Do you follow?

If this was already clear and I misjudged your response, then my bad, but I really wanted to make sure you are clear on this one. :)

As for the noticing and letting go of resistance it sounds really good! This is the "work" so to speak. Though here also, it is just new conditioning showing itself. No one doing it.

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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:41 am

first the attention is focused on a thought story and then that story is followed by another thought saying something like: "Oh, I'm lost in a story again", followed by (hopefully) a resting of attention in "stillness". Do you follow?
yes this is exactly how its happening for me.
It is initially just a thought that involves a sense of who I am . THen there is that thought quite briefly- usually like "I again". then there is the there is the thought that I must examine this sense of I again. In checking it I realise it is just another thought. Then all thoughts are dropped and my attention rests in stillness. On the plus side I am no fully on board that there is no real sense of I to begin with so I usually don't even feel the need to examine it too much. That sense of stillness is nearby .
here also, it is just new conditioning showing itself. No one doing it.
Is this new conditioning not the new programming I am trying to install?
I recognize the irony here in that I am not actually trying to do anything because there is no I. So I guess its just like thoughts are arising and thoughts are going. Some of them are referencing a false sense of I or labeling others. BUt A new thought is overriding them that these are false beliefs. there is also the deliberate thought that this belongs in this moment. Or to just let it be.
Maybe I just can't think myself out of this problem?
Not that its a major problem I still feel like this process is very beneficial.

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Sonofnature
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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Wed Jan 29, 2025 11:11 am

On the plus side I am no fully on board that there is no real sense of I to begin with so I usually don't even feel the need to examine it too much.
This is great! I'd like you to answer some questions from your current experience. Be a bit concise.

1) Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?

2) Do you feel that an inherently independent self exists?

3) Is there an actual past or future?

4) How do you relate to your thoughts?

5) How do you relate to your emotions?

6) Has your relationship to other people changed since we started our exploration together?

7) How do you react when conflict / problems arise?

8) What is your relationship to life?

9) Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

10) If you are not the separate self, who/what are you?
Is this new conditioning not the new programming I am trying to install?
Yes, it is. I was just pointing out that the new programming is being installed through your current conditioning meeting life circumstances, like this conversation, and that there is no one doing anything. :) But I think you got that already!
there is also the deliberate thought that this belongs in this moment. Or to just let it be.
Maybe I just can't think myself out of this problem?
Not that its a major problem I still feel like this process is very beneficial.
I didn't quite catch this. No thoughts are more deliberate than others. Thoughts are thoughts. They are reflecting and reacting to what is happening. This also mean they can and often do react to the previous thought. There is no one that thinks a way out of a problem, there are thoughts reacting to other thoughts that is perceived as a problem. A problem is only a problem based on that perticular set of conditioning.

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cormacFitz
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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Thu Jan 30, 2025 9:40 am

wow those are big questions...
I'll do my best to answer them. Sorry if it seems long winded.
Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?
No I do not believe this. The sense of self is dependent on prevailing thoughts, sensations and emotions. It changes rapidly depending on the circumstances. When I look for a stable self I cannot find it. It is constantly trying to attach itself to any prevailing thoughts claiming them as being self referential or else referencing others. However both these are just thought processes based on my conditioning. I can also see that referencing others as something real creates a duality whereby I must be a separate entity thus reinforcing the delusion that I am a separate self. Not helpful as this also can create stress.
Is there an actual past or future
NO neither of these exist in this present moment. They only exist as projections of our thoughts. Both thoughts of our future and our past are tainted by our conditioning and therefor are not reliable. Ultimately they are just thoughts too which come and go.
How do you relate to your thoughts?
I am seeing very clearly that my thoughts just arise then a sense of self attaches itself to them. I see them come now and I just recognize that thinking is occurring. sometimes Thoughts will illicit emotions or generate further thoughts. However I am not spending very much time following trains of thought without recognizing that they are in fact just something else that I am aware of as opposed to feeling like these thoughts are part of me , or generated by me.
some thoughts will be re-occuring due to my conditioning previously there was a tendency to attach a sense of identity to the content of these thoughts like I am a compassionate guy because I have thoughts about helping someone. I see that I will still thoughts of helping someone but I don't attach a sense of meaning to it. I guess I don't let them fuel my ego( because I know it doesn't exist)
I do feel like they have less of an emotional pull on me now. which leads to the next question.
How do you relate to your emotions?
If I have unpleasant emotions I recognize them and any sensations in my body associated with them. I don't add more fuel to the fire by thinking about the source of these emotions too much. Obviously the thought why am I feeling stressed will arise as will thoughts about solutions to this stress. Like I had a very busy morning this morning and I decided I would meditate at lunch time. THis helped to sooth me. Consequently something changed and I had a busy afternoon then a busy evening but I didn't feel stressed about it any more. I just recognized that things were hectic and I felt fine about it.
I recognize when pleasant emotions arise and I just let them be. i don't question them or try to prolong them.
Has your relationship to other people changed since we started our exploration together?
definitely in a positive way. I feel more empathetic since I am not labeling people as other so much. This is still a conscious process at times but less and less so. Like this afternoon I didn't have to remind myself at all and as far as I can remember. It was like a flow state
In terms of my relationship with my family I have noticed there has been no conflict lately. I am still full of love for them and if they do things that need addressing I will still speak my piece but not with anger.
How do you react when conflict / problems arise?
I have quite a long fuse to begin with. I think equanimity has for a long time been a gift of mine. So there is not a huge amount of conflict. However I have noticed that I am getting less irritated by other people's behavior. For example my son borrowed something from me then left in a mess in the middle of the deck despite me asking him to clean it and put it away. There was the recognition of anger arising but it passed very quickly. However this afternoon when I got called back into work before I had time to unwind I thought I should be getting angry and tried to bitch about it to my wife but there was nothing there. I was not stressed or annoyed really. I just laughed and went back to work.( admittedly I did try to get out of it first but that was not a possibility).
What is your relationship to life?
I am not really sure about this that's a big question. Now I could give the right answer but who knows what tomorrow will bring. So I guess life is just something that I will experience...Or should I say something that will be experienced.
Are there doubts? if so please describe them
there have been plenty, even earlier today but none now. Ask me at 4 am...
actually maybe maybe I am doubting my ability to sleep right through the night. I think I will feel like being awake is what belongs at that time. As well as associated thoughts of how sleeping should be happening . There has certainly been less stress about being up too early.
I currently see the thought of me waking early as just a thought and I don't have any aversion to it.
When I do searching inventory of things that have annoyed me recently there is no emotion present.
the only thing I am currently feeling is calmness and a sense of OKed ness or equanimity maybe.
If you are not the separate self, who/what are you?
I think I was identifying myself as the witness of thoughts sensations and emotions, Now I am not even identifying myself as this. THe thoughts are just occurring and there is an awareness of them. I don't think it matters who I think I am at present. Not to belittle the question. its a great question and I'll let you know if I have any ideas about this.
maybe I'm running out of steam...
There is a lot for you to go through there , hopefully you aren't too busy yourself, no rush.

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cormacFitz
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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:36 am

so that flow state had disappeared as usual when I woke the next day. which was fine_ I only need it when I am super busy anyway.

I went to a gig on the weekend and I noticed a slight difference in my mental workings.
Normally in big crowds of people I will spot people and my instinct is to instantly judge them. like they look pretty or cool or dangerous or wasted. Last time I went to a gig in this venue I was consciously reminding myself that we are all one. Which was like playing whack a mole with my mind and got tiresome.
However this time I was seeing people and noticing that my instinct was to judge them but not being attached to my judgment. It kind of just was seen as a thought.
consequently there was more of a sense of oneness with my fellow concert goers.

Unfortunately though I think my old conditioning took over a bit and I had a little too much to drink. THis affected my thought processes negatively and even the next day was affected. So it is definitely not a permanent shift with me.
I am wondering what your thoughts are on intoxication and non duality and how they would align? Because I tried the path of the ascetic before and it was a giant waste of time.

Today I was reading gateless gatecrashers and From one of the stories about Jamie I realized that I too am waiting for my sense of self to agree that there is no sense of self... this is ridiculous!
So I think I initially intellectually understood the concept and gradually lately instincively its happening more. Like thoughts that previously may have lead to other nervous thoughts don't happen as much.
However the thing I was waiting for - confirmation from my sense of self that I don't exist will never happen as then it will just attach itself to the sense of no self- slippery little bastard that it is.

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Sonofnature
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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:18 am

Hey Cormac!

Apologies for the late response. I had some personal matters to take care of and wasn’t able to reply sooner.

The answers to the questions I sent you look great! It seems to me that there’s a lot of clarity there.
Unfortunately though I think my old conditioning took over a bit and I had a little too much to drink. THis affected my thought processes negatively and even the next day was affected. So it is definitely not a permanent shift with me.
In my experience, intoxication. Especially with alcohol as I find it tends to dull conscious awareness. What often happens is that actions become more reactive, as they stem from older, deeply ingrained conditioning rather than clear seeing in the moment. That being said, trying to control experience through rigid asceticism can also become just another identity trap. So it’s not about following rules but about noticing: How does this affect clarity? And Is this something I truly want?
However the thing I was waiting for - confirmation from my sense of self that I don't exist will never happen as then it will just attach itself to the sense of no self- slippery little bastard that it is.
This is a great insight! It’s easy to fall into the trap of making “no-self” into just another concept, the same way we made “self” into a thing. But both are just concepts the mind tries to hold onto. The real shift isn’t about confirming one view over another, but rather seeing through all views that try to define what is.

Based on my impression of your responses, I want to ask if you feel ready for what we call "checkpoint" questions where other guides will evaluate your responses and ask some follow-up questions if they see fit. Or is there anything else you would like to explore first?

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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:21 am

I think the quote tag got messed up somehow in my last response, so here is the cleaned up version:

Hey Cormac!

Apologies for the late response. I had some personal matters to take care of and wasn’t able to reply sooner.

The answers to the questions I sent you look great! It seems to me that there’s a lot of clarity there.
Unfortunately though I think my old conditioning took over a bit and I had a little too much to drink. THis affected my thought processes negatively and even the next day was affected. So it is definitely not a permanent shift with me.
In my experience, intoxication. Especially with alcohol as I find it tends to dull conscious awareness. What often happens is that actions become more reactive, as they stem from older, deeply ingrained conditioning rather than clear seeing in the moment. That being said, trying to control experience through rigid asceticism can also become just another identity trap. So it’s not about following rules but about noticing: How does this affect clarity? And Is this something I truly want?
However the thing I was waiting for - confirmation from my sense of self that I don't exist will never happen as then it will just attach itself to the sense of no self- slippery little bastard that it is.
This is a great insight! It’s easy to fall into the trap of making “no-self” into just another concept, the same way we made “self” into a thing. But both are just concepts the mind tries to hold onto. The real shift isn’t about confirming one view over another, but rather seeing through all views that try to define what is.

Based on my impression of your responses, I want to ask if you feel ready for what we call "checkpoint" questions where other guides will evaluate your responses and ask some follow-up questions if they see fit. Or is there anything else you would like to explore first?

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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Thu Feb 06, 2025 8:55 pm

Thanks Marius ,
No problem with the late response .
I don’t think I have had a permanent shift . Or at least I feel like things have gone backwards recently. It’s kind of in and out of non dual awareness for still . The last couple of days not so good with it.
Happy to look at questions though.

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Sonofnature
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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:19 pm

Hey Cormac!

When you say non dual awareness, what do you mean exactly? :)

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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Thu Feb 06, 2025 11:44 pm

hey Marius
I am not receiving notifications re posts anymore for some reason but I'll keep checking the thread

what do I mean non dual awareness. ...
I guess I mean I was getting lost in thoughts and identifying with the struggle. I had a major issue that I needed to sort out. regarding dealing with my ex wife. I think there is a lot of water under the bridge between us. So I got reactive.
I did notice that it was happening but rather then accepting it fully I got stressed. Its hard because I couldn't just give in to her about what we were arguing about. I felt I had to draw my line in the sand.
I felt pretty bad about this too. Which in budhism is known as the second arrow. I slept poorly last night and woke up quite annoyed . Not so much about the situation but more about my reactivity.
However I meditated there and now I feel ok about me getting reactive. I recognize that it was just my conditioning . I also recognize that they were just thoughts . Now I am able to see the unfolding of events as just such without getting annoyed about it.
So I have kind of lost confidence in whether I am actually experiencing a shift in perspective. If I have its not permanent anyway. I am not sure where the hold up is. I can reflect on my thoughts and recognize them as just thoughts. I know there is no me controlling these thoughts. I also know there is no me orchestrating things. I can see that it is all just the passing of phenomenon . But I think that my ego is still hanging on but only by a finger.
Still I am also recognizing that my thought processes will not change . I think maybe the problem is still in labelling others. Intellectually I see that it is just mere thoughts and that They are biased by my conditioning therefor not true and then I can let go of the labeling. However this is not happening instinctively. It can be dropped through further thoughts- like that that my concepts of who someone is is false and that using my mind to differentiate my experiences if a flawed tool for perceiving the truth. Hopefully this makes sense .

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Sonofnature
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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:39 am

Thank your for clarifying. :)

You can subscribe to the thread again by clicking on the wrench icon in the thread menu and selecting subscribe post.

In regards to what you label nondual awareness, it sounds to me like there is an expectation to have a permanent shift that will never pull you into identification, which is an unrealistic expectation. After "awakening" or "seeing through self" there will likely be a long process of "cleaning up" old habits and patterns from our conditioning. It's not like all conditioning drop off after a shift. "Awakening" is just the beginning, so to speak, not a final graduation. Clarity will continue to deepen until you draw your last breath.

From what you are saying in regards to the incident with your ex-wife, it sounds like there were some strong emotions involved that led to a temporary identification. You even noticed it as it was happening. This is a big deal. This is how the clean up happens. You get triggered, you notice the trigger and your chances of reactivity diminishes substantially the next time something similar happens. So this is not going backwards. You can never go backwards. This is moving forward by going back to clean up old stuff that has not yet been seen. This is "the work" so to speak, though no one is doing it. It's just life presenting us with opportunities to look where there is still stuff to let go of. It's a beautiful thing. :)

Let me know what comes up for you.

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Re: One love

Postby cormacFitz » Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:42 am

thanks marius for your support
I do like the positive slant. Lots of work to be done eh.
Its hard though when one day you feel like life is just unfolding the way its supposed to and the next day I am needing to consciously remind myself that what is happening belongs and that there is no self at the center of things.I guess its just about recognizing that frustration is present and no one is frustrated. Its just thoughts and sensations.
When I look I still find that there is no self and that there never was. Even when emotions are strong.

Reading the gateless gatecrashers though is a bit of a double pronged sword. It gives me some insights into how others have gotten over barriers for themselves. While at the same time when they describe how they feel after they have seen clearly through the illusion of self they experience a change in their perception that is very different from how they felt before.
I have had glimpses of this but like I said it doesn't always flow that way instinctively for me. In fact it is less frequent then my default state.I do not experience a natural sense of ease that I believe to be permanent. So this creates doubt in my mind that there has been a permanent shift.
I do feel like the programming is helping. I am remembering often to question the sense of I or me and then watching the thoughts which were present just drift away.
I feel that after this process there is a sense of calm abiding and a sense of Okedness. I am trying not to identify with this sense. However For years I have been identifying with sense of calm equanimity. I realize that intellectually there is no sense in labeling this . It adds a layer of thinking which brings with it conditioning.
Is it true though that there is a sense of this calmness behind the thoughts that becomes apparent when I recognize the thoughts as just thoughts and they fall away?
If this is true then is this the felt experience that the other gatecrashers are feeling?
I do recognize that comparisons are not helpful and neither is labeling so I am not dwelling on this too much. More just recognizing the disappointment or frustration and letting it be there. Also seeing that there is me that is frustrated.

btw I am subscribed to the thread but not receiving emails- all good I'll just keep checking it every day

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Re: One love

Postby Sonofnature » Sun Feb 09, 2025 2:00 pm

I do like the positive slant. Lots of work to be done eh.
Well, yes and no. There is no one there doing the work. There is however a unique set of conditioning responding to life and that set of conditioning seems to be gradually noticing where experience is constricted. In the noticing, there is an opportunity to unclench by seeing clearly what is happening. So there seems to be a “process” of deconditioning, which can be experienced as work.

Its hard though when one day you feel like life is just unfolding the way its supposed to and the next day I am needing to consciously remind myself that what is happening belongs and that there is no self at the center of things.
Life isn’t supposed to unfold in any particular way. It unfolds as it unfolds. When there is a belief in a story of a self, life can feel like it is unfolding in a way that it is happening to us, but if one were to step back and take an impersonal perspective, life is just happening spontaneously and its only in the story that it is happening in the context of a self.

If there was an earthquake for example, and you weren’t there, you might look at the earthquake as a natural spontaneous happening of life, but if you were there during the earthquake and it impacted your experience, you would probably look at the earthquake as something negative that happened to you. Can you feel into the difference?
I guess its just about recognizing that frustration is present and no one is frustrated. Its just thoughts and sensations.
When reading this, it sounds a little like you might be trying to bypass the feeling of frustration by saying there is no one here to be frustrated. I am open to my interpretation being off here, but in case it’s not, I would invite you to go straight into the feeling of frustration and feel it, without the the label of frustration and the story attached to it. Without trying to figure out what it is or why it is there. Without trying to solve it in any way.
Reading the gateless gatecrashers though is a bit of a double pronged sword. It gives me some insights into how others have gotten over barriers for themselves. While at the same time when they describe how they feel after they have seen clearly through the illusion of self they experience a change in their perception that is very different from how they felt before.
Do you recognize that however one interprets other peoples experience is going to be wrong? And that by interpreting and comparing it to what is experienced there will set up an expectation of looking for something else than what is directly experienced in the present moment? During our conversation, you have shared shifts and changes in your experience as well, but there seems to be an expectation that it will stay “light” forever. It won’t. Both “pleasant” and “unpleasant” sensations will come and go, but identification with those sensations might gradually dissolve.

Stay with what is. Whatever that looks like. Allow it. Welcome it. There is no need to interpret it. If you find your attention fixating on thoughts about it, the new conditioning will likely present a reminder to move attention from thoughts to the open and empty space those sensations arise. Stay there!
I have had glimpses of this but like I said it doesn't always flow that way instinctively for me. In fact it is less frequent then my default state.I do not experience a natural sense of ease that I believe to be permanent. So this creates doubt in my mind that there has been a permanent shift.
I do feel like the programming is helping. I am remembering often to question the sense of I or me and then watching the thoughts which were present just drift away.
What does a permanent shift look like? Yes, there might be an experience of getting sucked into thoughts, but can it ever go back to before when the thoughts that bring you back to direct experience, never happened? Hasn’t there been a permanent shift that eventually brings attention back to presence?
Is it true though that there is a sense of this calmness behind the thoughts that becomes apparent when I recognize the thoughts as just thoughts and they fall away?
If this is true then is this the felt experience that the other gatecrashers are feeling?
I don’t know what is true for you or other gatecrashers. I don’t know anything to be true, other than what’s in direct experience here. There can be thoughts in the background, thoughts in the foreground. A sense of calmness and intense sensations passing through. The difference for me since “awakening” so to speak, is that there was less and less identification with experience, and less and less thoughts or sensations that stick. That didn’t happen overnight after it became clear that there is no self, but with the clarity of there not being a self here, I had a set of tools, so to speak to notice when I was “selfing” and see things for what they are in direct experience, without a personal story of it happening to anyone.

I hope this helps. 😊

Also, a friend of mine hosts Zoom group meetings where people from all over the world come together to share and discuss personal experiences related to seeking and awakening.

I think it could be really fruitful for you to join and see what it’s all about. The meetings are free, and there’s no pressure to share or even turn on your camera, though it’s always welcomed if you feel like participating. It’s a supportive space to connect, listen, and explore.


There is a meetup every friday 8am (Sydney Australia time)
There is also one every Saturday at 9pm (Sydney Asutralia time)
One each Monday 7am (Sydney Asutralia time)
And one each Wednesday at 4pm (Sydney Asutralia time)

Arriving late and leaving early is fine.

You can convert time zones here; https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

This is the link to join the zoom meetings:
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035


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