Before I run out of time....

[KateB]

Ok! For the next day follow/investigate the alive sense of self… Not thoughts about it, but the alive sense of it. Don't try to see through it, just pay attention to what it is/how it is... Do that for some time and let's see what happens.

On the case .... this may take a while....

[Elad]

Ok! For the next day follow/investigate the alive sense of self… Not thoughts about it, but the alive sense of it. Don't try to see through it, just pay attention to what it is/how it is... Do that for some time and let's see what happens.

On the case .... this may take a while....

Sounds good. I recommend to touch space daily and write whatever is noticed.

[KateB]

Sounds good. I recommend to touch space daily and write whatever is noticed.

Agree

So far.... investigating 'alive sense of self' turns up sensations that I categorise as 'feeling alive' but have to cast around to make them 'self'


... and yet there IS something there. I can 'see' aliveness in other people and sense that 'my' aliveness is somehow personal...

[Elad]

Sounds good. I recommend to touch space daily and write whatever is noticed.

Agree

So far.... investigating 'alive sense of self' turns up sensations that I categorise as 'feeling alive' but have to cast around to make them 'self'


... and yet there IS something there. I can 'see' aliveness in other people and sense that 'my' aliveness is somehow personal...

GOOD. Just keep looking at this "personal aliveness" in real time. What is it? Where is it? Where creates or controls it?

[KateB]

still on it....

dont know what or where it is, but pretty sure it is not created or controlled

[Elad]

still on it....

dont know what or where it is, but pretty sure it is not created or controlled

Great!

What is the relationship between sense of self and thoughts?

Reminding, don't analyze it, observe live experience through the lens of the question.

[KateB]

Just keep looking at this "personal aliveness" in real time. What is it? Where is it? Where creates or controls it?

Still on it (nights are good for this!)...

there is still a 'habitual sense of self', but not all the time... I sometimes notice when I come back into it, a sort of 'clunk'

But what I am investigating now is always there, doesnt switch in and out of the frame, it is not optional (not switchable-off)

What is the relationship between sense of self and thoughts?

Fair question! sense of self and thoughts are definitly tangled up

Not so sure about 'alive sense' - that seems to be there in the absence of thought.

SO far, I cant seem to 'find' the alive sense . When I think about 'it', I wonder if it is just another santa claus story or is it not findable?

[KateB]

ME: SO far, I cant seem to 'find' the alive sense . When I think about 'it', I wonder if it is just another santa claus story or is it not findable?

trying meditation... hoping to look at 'alive sense' without too much other distractions!

Unfortunately my 'meditation muscles' are a bit out of practice but persevering ... 30 minute sits

[Elad]

ME: SO far, I cant seem to 'find' the alive sense . When I think about 'it', I wonder if it is just another santa claus story or is it not findable?

trying meditation... hoping to look at 'alive sense' without too much other distractions!

Unfortunately my 'meditation muscles' are a bit out of practice but persevering ... 30 minute sits

What does "trying to meditate" mean for you?

In this work you are invited to be with ordinary direct experience, seeing what is all ready there, thoughts, sensations... And what contols all that and where is the self in that?

Make sure to tell me something daily about what you actually see and feel, rather then interpret/think. "Trying" is a thought (with some sensations in the body, oftentime contractions, associatied).

[KateB]

What does "trying to meditate" mean for you?

I mean getting to a stable 'place' with minimal sensory input, including lack of thought so as to 'look for' the properties of awareness

In this work you are invited to be with ordinary direct experience, seeing what is all ready there, thoughts, sensations... And what controls all that and where is the self in that?

Yes, I get that - and working in everyday experience is what appeals most - But I had done a bit of 'daily life' looking at the relationship of awareness to the feeling of self and wasn't getting any clarity so thought it worth trying in the sort of 'laboratory conditions' of meditation.... though that hasnt clarified anything to date

"Trying" is a thought (with some sensations in the body, often time contractions, associatied).

Trying as a thought? - yes sort of.... Thats why I asked you earlier about 'intention' ... some sort of 'direction of travel...that isnt a tight control...

Give that up???? Really?

[KateB]

Elad, thanks so much for your time

It was striking to me how much more exacting it seems to give an account of what is there 'in the moment' when someone else is holding me to 'the moment'!

It was also 'a first' to have a flicker of panic when addressing a felt sense of self - but sort-of-exciting too, as I said at the time. Found it hard to exactly 'recreate' this sequence afterwards... but I feel I learned that there was 'stuff to discover' which 'motivates' curiosity... and validates a sense of 'not-knowing'. (Sorry this all sounds wordy, but whats the alternative?)

Also when 'on the spot' I didnt find agency in whatever the 'self'/'point of view' was that I was addressing.... If I had hesitated longer, im sure I would have 'wanted to check', but in the moment, I didnt sense that whatever 'it' was was a 'doing thing' at all - I think a 'point of view' seems a better description.

So I am going to look at that felt sense 'trying to drop preconceptions.... not knowing what it is. without even tring to categorise it as real or a story or....

Thanks again

[Elad]

Elad, thanks so much for your time

It was striking to me how much more exacting it seems to give an account of what is there 'in the moment' when someone else is holding me to 'the moment'!

It was also 'a first' to have a flicker of panic when addressing a felt sense of self - but sort-of-exciting too, as I said at the time. Found it hard to exactly 'recreate' this sequence afterwards... but I feel I learned that there was 'stuff to discover' which 'motivates' curiosity... and validates a sense of 'not-knowing'. (Sorry this all sounds wordy, but whats the alternative?)

Also when 'on the spot' I didnt find agency in whatever the 'self'/'point of view' was that I was addressing.... If I had hesitated longer, im sure I would have 'wanted to check', but in the moment, I didnt sense that whatever 'it' was was a 'doing thing' at all - I think a 'point of view' seems a better description.

So I am going to look at that felt sense 'trying to drop preconceptions.... not knowing what it is. without even tring to categorise it as real or a story or....

Thanks again

Beautiful!

Yes there is a point of view.

However does it have an exact location in the body?

And even more importantly is it a separate self in control of something?

Lovely to meet you Kate

[KateB]

However does it have an exact location in the body?

Last night after our 'live' session, I spent quite a lot of time awake... looking for a 'where' again. I couldn't find a where at all, let alone in an exact location. (That said, this morning somehow a feeling in the chest was 'conjured up'.... I sense that 'I' am almost cultivating it!

And even more importantly is it a separate self in control of something?

Im beginning to realise that exploring the having/not-having a sense of control is the main issue for me. If I realise that even my 'empirical'/habitual sense of self hasn't got (and never had) agency, that changes everything.

Is that right?

[Elad]

However does it have an exact location in the body?

Last night after our 'live' session, I spent quite a lot of time awake... looking for a 'where' again. I couldn't find a where at all, let alone in an exact location. (That said, this morning somehow a feeling in the chest was 'conjured up'.... I sense that 'I' am almost cultivating it!

And even more importantly is it a separate self in control of something?

Im beginning to realise that exploring the having/not-having a sense of control is the main issue for me. If I realise that even my 'empirical'/habitual sense of self hasn't got (and never had) agency, that changes everything.

Is that right?

Sounds like a good direction to me.

Go at it from two angles:

1) Check again all the normal things, do I control:

- thoughts? (how and and when they come and go)
- movement? (palm flipping exercise)
- attention (what it is on, when it moves)
- will (do I decide what I really want in a given moment, or it just is as it is)
- feelings (whatever I feel genuinely now is it a choice or it just is)


2) Investigate when there is a sense of control and choice - is that actually created and controlled by whatever you take to be the separate you (say the sensation in the chest)


:)

[KateB]

I have had a heavy/busy day and looking back have run on 'automatic pilot' all the time, no notion of choice.... right up to now getting my laptop out on a late night train to send you an update... just happened... no 'decision'

BUT somehow the day seems very unsatisfactory, flat, not 'alive'. Clearly my body-machinery can make a good job of running 'my life' but there seems something missing, something effortful is needed to 'bring it to life'. So Im sitting wondering who/what that is...

Its as though I/self/ needs to 'bring something' to the moment...