LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The guide will ask leading questions to the new member in order for their to be a "seeing" that a self who we have taken ourselves to be all this time, cannot be found in direct experience. What this means essentially is that the person we have taken ourselves to be witnesses thoughts arising in awareness.
What are you looking for at LU?
A guide who's familiar with the type of seeker that I have been (somewhat detached, dissociated, aimless) to kindly and gently point to the nature of reality in such a way that may enable this seeker to experience the true nature of reality.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A conversation with questions that are necessary for the guide to understand what type of pointing might prove fruitful for the new member. Perhaps questions pertaining to the current situation and perception and understanding of the new member.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
4 years of studying, watching hundreds of videos, advaita vedanta, buddhism, probs about 15 zoom calls and daily contemplation and noticing that thoughts do generate the illusion of the separate self.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10
No One Ever Wakes Up
- Anastacia42
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- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Hi RichMac,
My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.
I'm curious. Why would I need to be familiar with a "detached, dissociated, aimless" seeker? It really doesn't matter as long as you follow the pointers and post your experiences as suggested.
One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Some housekeeping guidelines:
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.
2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.
Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.
Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.
Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
Loving,
My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.
I'm curious. Why would I need to be familiar with a "detached, dissociated, aimless" seeker? It really doesn't matter as long as you follow the pointers and post your experiences as suggested.
One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Some housekeeping guidelines:
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.
2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.
Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.
Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.
Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Thoughts arise that if you are familiar, you'll know how to navigate the thoughts that keep arising her. I now see that as... just another thought and not relevant.Why would I need to be familiar with a "detached, dissociated, aimless" seeker?
I have read the disclaimer and "liberation unleashed is not"
Life will continue as before. I may experience the emotions less intensely and be at peace with what is.How will life change?
I might find it easier to be happy with whatever is rather than always seeking to improve everything in my life.How will you change?
Knowing that it isn't happening to or by an "I" may produce peace... maybe love.What will be different?
NothingWhat is missing?
- Anastacia42
- Posts: 9273
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Good. Thank you.
What about those last 2 questions?
What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.
What about those last 2 questions?
What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
I remember writing them... not sure what happenedWhat about those last 2 questions?
Rich. GMT + 2 (South africa)What about those last 2 questions?
Yes, I believe it. There's nothing I can do. This is all perfect as it is. The appearance of me struggling, believing, trying to do or not do... is all out of my control and just happening to or in consciousness. It's absolutely perfect and nothing other than what is happening can be done... even these thoughts and writings are not in the control of anyone.Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.
Awakening will happen or it won't Even hoping that it will is not a desire from or by Rich... It's just what it is... Maybe thoughts will slow down, space will open up and an aha moment will happen or it wont. There's nothing to be done
- Anastacia42
- Posts: 9273
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Okay, good.
This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Loving,
This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Yes I'm clear on this thanks.Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
- Anastacia42
- Posts: 9273
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Very good. Thank you. Here is a practice pointer for distinguishing between Direct Experience and Content of Thought.
Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.
Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.
Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.
Loving,
Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.
Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.
Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Seeing the living room, simply = image/colorPost several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.
Smelling sea breeze, simply = smell
Feeling the cold air, simply = sensation
Music playing through headphones, simply = sound
Eating ice cream, simply = taste
Thinking about where to have breakfast, simply = thought
Tasting coffee, simply - sensation
Baby crying, simply = sound
People walking, simply = image/colour
Music playing, simply = sound
People talking, simply = sound
Wind blowing, simply = sensation
Cold air breeze, simply = sensation
Touching face, simply = sensation
Thinking about how to get it = Thought
How to get it?, simply = Thought
Tension in stomach, simply = thought + sensation
What is there to get, simply = thought
Let go, this is it, simply = thought
There isn’t anyone who can do or not do, simply = thought
This is consciousness, simply = thought
I hope thoughts keep arising to get me to do this exercise regularly
thanks
- Anastacia42
- Posts: 9273
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Great. That's it. Yes, you can do that whenever it comes up. Here is the next step:
Mind Labeling Experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example:
I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.
Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.
For example:
Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.
(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
Loving,
Mind Labeling Experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example:
I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.
Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.
For example:
Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.
(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Yes. The second one is truer.1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
Sights, sounds, sensations,
Labels just describe experience.3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Yes, more relaxed and calm when not using "I" to describe what's happening.4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
- Anastacia42
- Posts: 9273
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Excellent. All true. Speaking of truth, please take a look at this:
Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.
We often lie every day & don't realize it.
For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."
Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.
Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.
The story of a separate "self" is a lie.
This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.
You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.
Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.
In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?
Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."
How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.
It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.
Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.
Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.
What is found?
If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.
1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.
I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.
Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.
I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)
Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.
"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.
Do you see that?
Loving,
Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.
We often lie every day & don't realize it.
For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."
Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.
Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.
The story of a separate "self" is a lie.
This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.
You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.
Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.
In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?
Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."
How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.
It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.
Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.
Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.
What is found?
If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.
1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.
I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.
Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.
I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)
Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.
"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.
Do you see that?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Tightness, tingling, rough, hot, itchyWhat is found?
Yes I do.Do you see that?
- Anastacia42
- Posts: 9273
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
Excellent. It may be valuable to notice some things that give you the truth feeling. Then when you see there is no self, you recognize the truth if it .
Meanwhile, try this one:
Label-Reality Correlation
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Let me know what is SEEN.
Loving,
Meanwhile, try this one:
Label-Reality Correlation
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Let me know what is SEEN.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
Re: No One Ever Wakes Up
RedWhen you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
The colour Red is experiencedIs the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
The label green does not have a 1 2 1 correspondence with reality but suggests something else other than what is here now.Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Green is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red.Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests? Is not affected at all.
The labels have no effect whatsoever on reality.Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
What is seen is colour, and images saying green but it is Red.Let me know what is SEEN
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