Who am I really?

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Mon Jan 06, 2025 1:56 pm

Sight without thought or self continues to function spontaneously, without effort. Sight is just obviously happening.

Hearing is simple and can’t and needn’t be made to happen. It’s never known what will be heard until it’s heard or what was heard until after it’s been already passed. At the time of hearing it’s spontaneous and effortless.

Sensations also move constantly and unexpectedly or unpredictably and fall away the same way. They aren’t created but are experienced.

Yes


Thoughts are the both the clearest and least clear. There’s still the tendency to somehow believe in ownership or control of some thoughts and be able to recognize others as just as uncontrolled and unowned as sight, hearing, and sensations. Looking now it can be seen that even these thoughts are arising uncontrolled and , that without a thought afterwards saying it wasn’t spontaneous, they are spontaneous. There’s some relief again at the recognition of how that cascades to everything that thoughts take credit for. Guilt, second-guessing, shame, embarrassment can be seen to a way of claiming what was never actually claimable. If all moments are essentially just like this one, spontaneously arising, when would the things that led to those feelings have had the chance to be controlled by a self?


Exactly. And how could "another moment" be different? See exercise at the end...


A reluctance comes up when the thought that there’s no one to claim the “work” that’s gone into this process is seen as possibly being true. When would there have been a separate self to initiate any process? Was there a moment so unlike this one where it was present and if so, where was this separate self? Where did it exist outside of thought?Such a self can’t be found looking now even if thoughts keep trying to take claim after each word is typed and attributing them to a self. Where is it? Where is it? It’s a very subtle thought almost just a feeling that claims being a self.



So there is a wish to be the one who did this process and claims the work and fruits...

But can that someone be found? And is there someone deciding to have that wish?

If you don't make it about what the feelings want, but what is actually there........



Attention is also claimed by thoughts but it seems to shift in a similar way to thoughts. It moves then because it’s a familiar feeling, the movement is claimed as “natural” which it is, but there’s no mover of attention apparent.



Intention and will can be seen to be spontaneously arising in DE.

Emotion can be seen to be moving without a controller.

A thought immediately arises that says “choice” is where “I” always get stuck but looking in DE, the body continues typing, picking up crackers, chewing, and clearly almost none of it is even thought about. The part that is does sometimes arise in thought first, but the thought itself just spontaneously arises. The order can be either before or after but there’s nowhere for a controller to be. No central manager.


Right. Whatever connection might be between thoughts, intentions and actions none if it is self or controlled by self. Yes?


Why does it feel like there is one when clearly there isn’t?


If you believe Allah or Yeahova is the one true god with the one true book, it WILL feel true. If you decide to see through the unfounded belief, you cannot let yourself be guided by how it feels, only by what genuine attention to reality reveals.


Similarly with movement sometimes a thought precedes movement, sometime not. A thought isn’t a self though. A thought just says “I’ll type a quotation mark at the end of this sentence.” Then it’s typed, but what does the “I” refer to without thought? Just an empty... nothing. Nothing real, not even feeling really. It could be said to refer to the body and yes, there’s a body here, but is the body the “I” if the body is only acting (either before or after a thought about the action)? The body itself can’t both be the self and control the self.


What is a body? In direct experience? Is there anything in body that is not spontaneous nature without separate self?


I can see pretty clearly how everything conceptual is not real in the sense of DE. DE is beautifully simple. It’s doesn’t even need comment because it’s so obvious and apparent. All the politics and economy etc. exist in time and are completely invisible to DE so how could it inform those stories? This process could only show reality as it is without those stories, which also actually includes those stories but doesn’t in any way depend on them. It seems like it is a very simple seeing of reality just as it is.


Yes, stories can be useful relatively speaking, and no more. Here we are only concerned with the belief in some self that is controlling things, experiencing things, etc.



Do this exercise:





Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time? Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Tue Jan 07, 2025 8:44 am

I let the day get away a bit but wanted to check in.

There is change--appearances and sensations etc. change from one state to another that seems to be directional, consistent and in time. But... without thinking about it, it's also clear that in actual reality there's only "room" for reality as it is, there's no space for past or future, just what is present and obvious.

What seems to be change and movement somehow can't actually exist other than as a reference in thought to something doesn't exist. There's what is, which is always what is, even if contains has a "real" story, which is actually a concept or thought or image, of what was or will be.

So it seems that somehow there's apparent change but also, there's only ever actual evidence of what is easily available to the senses. It's actually impossible to know if there is change as strange as that seems. We have to believe in change and movement and time for it to exist. It really is just a belief.

That can be seen pretty clearly. All movement, despite feeling utterly "real" (and like you mentioned, we're not making this about feelings) is actually belief-based. It seems it can't be otherwise.

Movement is a belief. Time is a belief along with past and future. Without belief... you can't really talk about "it" directly because talking about it starts fundamentally with a belief in what the words reference outside of themselves in time.

Thoughts want to say that that's all just academic. That clearly there's time and that the belief is there because it's so obviously true.

But those are just arising thoughts. Actual looking without belief is inconclusive and can never be conclusive.

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Tue Jan 07, 2025 10:25 am

Okay, my suggestion at this point is stay laser focused on:

There is no self, agent, experiencer anywhere, is it true?

Stay on this until it is 100% clear.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Sat Jan 11, 2025 5:11 am

HI Elad,
I've stayed focused on
There is no self, agent, experiencer anywhere, is it true?
but probably not quite laser focused. Life has thrown lots of shiny objects in my path over the last couple weeks but the commitment to seeing clearly is still 100% here. The body sensations have settled down quite a bit but there remains a pretty abiding feeling of calm acceptance, even during periods of more intense emotions. "I" thoughts are seen most of the time and pretty easily let go of.

I'll continue to look to see if there is no self, agent, or experiencer anywhere. Often it's apparent, but it still doesn't feel like a sense of uncertainty about it is here. It feels like things are moving.

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:02 am

Beautiful!


Wrote this overview yesterday for another client who is "near", "in the neighborhood". Nothing here new for you, but might help to sharpen where to keep looking:


Core elements of direct inquiry


1) What does "I" refer to, is there anything at all in direct experience?

2) Is there anything at all that is not spontaneously unfolding, even whatever is wanted, believed, efforted, contracted, habitual, etc?

3) Are there any fears/resistances to the nonexistence of self or expectations to how it should be like to realize it, that get in the way of simple attention to and aknowedgement of what is there and what is not? Is there a willingness to let these go?


Also, here is a practice to keep the work focused:


Shikantaza and direct inquiry



Sit comfortably, straigt back, facing a bare wall, eyes open and relaxed. Set a time for 10 minutes or more (no upper limit). During this time notice thoughts coming and going and body movements happening. Stay focused on:

What is making the thoughts come and go and the body move?

Is there a thinker initiating and ending the thoughts, an agent initiating and stopping the movements? Or is the thinker/agent just a thought/belief?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:52 am

Thank you for posting those. There's still noticing and inquiry most of the time. Still feeling all of life's normal feelings but it seems that every thought that says they're not okay is noticed very quickly and seen as just a thought. Lots of big waves of gratitude are passing through too, sometimes at random times like walking in the grocery store :)

Thank you for sharing the exercises. I have been working with them. Especially the last one w/r/t fears/resistance. It feels like more of these types of fears are being let go still.

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:38 am

Beautiful. How about write me about whatever fears/resistances, expectations and beliefs might still get in the way of clear recognition and acknowledgement?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
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Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2024 2:16 am

Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:10 am

Hi Elad,
It's a little hard to find concrete fears/resistances/expectations/beliefs but this is what comes up:
- slight worry that "I" will become intolerable talking about the shift. On one hand it is very clear that in that sense, nothing really changes in terms of self-control or awareness as such and that there's no reason to fear this. On the other hand it's an unknown and apparently a small concern.
- worry that "I'm" not the type of person this happens to and that expecting it to is just going to lead to disappointment. In the face of the changes of the last couple weeks this is somewhat lessened but there's still this story that it will all fade away without a shift.
- some worry that there's still more "I" need to do--deeper inquiry, meditation. I don't know. Maybe that is just an avoidance.
- at this point it seems like expectations are less of an issue at least that I'm aware of. After some of the glimpses of the last couple weeks it feels like the only remaining expectation is simply that it could be said with no doubt whatsoever that there is no separate self. That is fairly clearly not the case now--I can arrive at that by carefully looking and probably adding some conceptual understanding on top of it but it's not fully apparent.
- there may be some subtle fears about becoming very different from others around me and less able to relate to them but they're definitely subtle. I'm already pretty damn different and it seems to be perfectly okay.

That's what comes up. Thank you again.

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:54 pm

Good stuff!

You know, our psychological patterns, genetics, karma, etc etc dont change fundamentally from this. Some things might, but in many ways, everything continues, and there is another openness to learn and flow and grow, which is a lifelong process...

Okay, so sounds to me for now its all about just letting this continue to unfold, keep looking if there is anything that is taken to be the real self and if it is, kinda like the summery I shared with you the other day...

So just keep at it and check in every day sharing what is seen what is not seen and any questions.

I recommend to write every day what is seen and what is not seen, also if it is repetitive, and whatever feelings there are about it. It can help what is known on level to sink in at another.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:12 am

While it feels like there’s just as much looking and just as much intention, today looking is somehow less clear. It’s a calm noticing of this, not anxious, but where recently it’s seemed almost obvious that there’s “no room” for a self in reality, today the selfing thoughts and feelings feel almost back “normal.”

Some worry comes up that momentum is being lost, but mostly just a resolve to keep looking. There’s still almost no suffering to be felt. I’m sick and feel okay with that. Some big life changes are coming up with lots of unknowns, but I feel very little stress over them even though there are lots of feelings about it. It feels like staying in the present is being trusted more. I don’t think it’s a denial or avoidance, just a sense that life is happening as it is and a trust that it’s okay. That said, it mostly feels like a separate “me” by default who is experiencing all this.

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:09 am

Are you looking for the old and intimate feeling of you, the sense of you, sense of your unique history, lovelive, dreams, aspirations, taste, efforts, and much more, to go away? Or to never again be deeply immersed in the experience of yourself, another person and the unique unfolding relationship between you?

If yes why?



In my experience ups and downs, and different states come and go, and I guess anything can come and go here. At the very least I wouldn't exclude it.


Do you want any part of normal human experience and life to be forever banished from your life? If yes, what? Or could it be that experiencing it is part of the whole, and "your" door to compassion and felt "oneness" or "inter-being" with countless other beings who experience something kind of similar to whatever you are experiencing at any particular moment?




Maybe look again at this exercise (you can, but don't have to send me all the answers).

And look into: what for you is the difference between a clear insight that is not a state, and compatible with all states, versus special and/or very enjoyable states?


Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:13 am

Ps. When a lot of stuff is happening, this can be stressful and might often trigger more strong "normal" psychological states of subtle or not subtle alarm and/or focus on the conventional personal life.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2024 2:16 am

Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Thu Jan 16, 2025 12:47 am

Are you looking for the old and intimate feeling of you, the sense of you, sense of your unique history, lovelive, dreams, aspirations, taste, efforts, and much more, to go away? Or to never again be deeply immersed in the experience of yourself, another person and the unique unfolding relationship between you?

If yes why?
No, it’s not that—I don’t want almost any of life’s experiences to disappear. But there is a fear/belief that suffering will return in full force if a big, clear, shift doesn’t happen and life starts throwing punches again. Like “sure, it’s fine now, but now is easy.” At the same time, I can see a glimmer of how now is, in a way, always easy, even when it’s not.
Do you want any part of normal human experience and life to be forever banished from your life? If yes, what? Or could it be that experiencing it is part of the whole, and "your" door to compassion and felt "oneness" or "inter-being" with countless other beings who experience something kind of similar to whatever you are experiencing at any particular moment?
There are certain normal (but painful) human experiences that have fear associated with them. In a way, it feels like “waking up” comes with a hope/expectation of never being subjected to them again, at least not in the same way as before. Despair, intense anger. So… yes, in a way I guess I do. But recently I’ve seen small tastes of how even those experiences are okay if they come, are allowed, and then released. I would like to have more confidence that they won’t completely overtake the joyful and loving parts of life again. In a way, there’s a growing sense of trust that letting go of that fear is okay but it’s not complete.
And look into: what for you is the difference between a clear insight that is not a state, and compatible with all states, versus special and/or very enjoyable states?

A clear insight that’s not a state would be one that felt undeniable without thinking about it. “Is there a separate self?” “No.” No need to return to looking. I don’t think I have much of a desire for special or enjoyable states. The strong body energy stuff was fun for a couple weeks but it seems to have passed and that is totally fine. I’ve never been too interested in experiencing, for example, all the jhanas (though I surely wouldn’t shy away from it if there was the chance), and things like that. It feels like I just want to be able to rest knowing that there is nothing here that can be harmed. Just that.

I will continue looking (not thinking about :)) at the sense of self as in the exercise to hopefully see through it.

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Elad
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Re: Who am I really?

Postby Elad » Thu Jan 16, 2025 7:26 pm

I might have a little to say to some of this, about safety from harm/hurt/pain, but I am doing a detox and having some pretty severe processes going on, so will keep it short for today. For now regarding that, just this video, and I will add to Thich Nhat Hanhs words: as we are resonant with suffering in others, we are also resonant for what is happening in "our" body and emotions, and not all of it feels anywhere near good. In fact it can feel excruciating at times. No path to safety from that, that I know of. Destructive and foolish reactivity/negativity around this can totally or mostly disappear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOg_AbfanSI

Regarding "seeing through sense of self" what would that mean? Given that it doesn't mean it is gone! It doesn't mean there is no sense og self. So what would it mean to "truly see through it" while it is clearly there? Look!
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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razorsedge
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2024 2:16 am

Re: Who am I really?

Postby razorsedge » Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:05 am

Hi Elad,
I hope your detox is progressing well and that some of the discomfort has eased. I think I understand what you mean about suffering with others and how resonating with what's happening in our bodies will always be part of our experience. I don't think I'd want it any other way--I don't to escape from life, only live it as it is, fully and (but?) without fear of it.
Regarding "seeing through sense of self" what would that mean? Given that it doesn't mean it is gone! It doesn't mean there is no sense og self. So what would it mean to "truly see through it" while it is clearly there? Look!
Yes, it's quite clear that "I" have no idea! Still looking (and remembering that looking is not thinking).


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