Want to finally know the truth

[filtah]

Hang in there Kevin :)

Same, still on the merry go round. Looking but not finding anything but thoughts, feelings, beliefs, all being packaged up as an entity and referred back to as if it's what I am. The identification still happens, efforts are being made to catch it when it happens and look closer at it, but it's a definitely a frustrating place to be.

Can you tell me - what are you expecting to happen?
What needs to be different?

[JackBurton]

The descriptions people give of the effect that the realization of no-self has on them lead me to believe that there is something fundamentally missing here. The inquiry has not led to any change in the identification with the "self" that takes the form of thoughts, feelings, and beliefs with the label "me." It still happens as it always has. My wife has been through the gate and describes that thoughts are much more fleeting and have much less impact now, she lets things go much more easily and is affected by emotions a much shorter time. Others talk about some sort of almost blissful state that lasts for a period of time. For me, there has been nothing. Just frustration mounting as looking for a self happens, but nothing is ever found aside from thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Yet offense still gets taken, ego still has the same foothold, the doer impulse still nags at me daily, etc...

I'm not sure what I expected, but "liberation" gives the impression of a lightening of the load, or a kind of epiphany that brings some heightened state of consciousness or awareness. I don't feel liberated from anything. I feel exactly the same as I did when we first started this inquiry...well, maybe more frustrated. I got something out of the sensory explorations/inquiry, a greater understanding of the influence that thoughts and labeling have on my perception of everything, but it just feels like there's something that won't drop and I can't figure out why, or what it is. Wherever I am right now doesn't feel like liberation, or realization.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
Thank for your honesty and looking into your expectations.
They are quite important, but also quite reasonable

The descriptions people give of the effect that the realization of no-self has on them lead me to believe that there is something fundamentally missing here.

This is probably one of the most stickiest beliefs.
If the belief is here, it's ok,
It's an opportunity to look. Where is the 'believer '?
Actually look for it in your sensory experience.

My wife has been through the gate and describes that thoughts are much more fleeting and have much less impact now, she lets things go much more easily and is affected by emotions a much shorter time. Others talk about some sort of almost blissful state that lasts for a period of time.

The so called 'shift' is different for everyone. Comparing with experiences of others will lead to frustration and expectations that take you away from the reality of how it is. This experience will be unique and not similar to any experience anybody else had.

For me, there has been nothing. Just frustration mounting as looking for a self happens, but nothing is ever found aside from thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.

This is alright. Who is doing the looking though? Turn beck and see what's here..

Yet offense still gets taken, ego still has the same foothold, the doer impulse still nags at me daily, etc...

What is wrong with this?
As well as what you described, is there also a sense that "this should not be happening" accompanying that?
See if this is the case..

I'm not sure what I expected, but "liberation" gives the impression of a lightening of the load, or a kind of epiphany that brings some heightened state of consciousness or awareness.

It's just not like that. The sense of relief, or lightness or whatever that comes is somewhat of a side-effect of the realisation. This is not the goal. If you are seeking this,.then your attention is in the wrong place. You are looking for something in the future, which only exists as a thought story.

I don't feel liberated from anything. I feel exactly the same as I did when we first started this inquiry...well, maybe more frustrated. I got something out of the sensory explorations/inquiry, a greater understanding of the influence that thoughts and labeling have on my perception of everything, but it just feels like there's something that won't drop and I can't figure out why, or what it is. Wherever I am right now doesn't feel like liberation, or realization.

Right. Trust your intuition. The inquiry isn't done yet.
Just keep.looking. look for the WHO that is frustrated.
Can it actually be found?
What is wrong with frustration arising?
This is an important pointer I think.


Finally, please consider this very directly:

there is no me – is it true?

[JackBurton]

This is probably one of the most stickiest beliefs.
If the belief is here, it's ok,
It's an opportunity to look. Where is the 'believer '?
Actually look for it in your sensory experience.

I don't know what to look for in the sensory experience, here. The belief is rooted in what I've heard and read from others, I know it's just a belief and therefore a thought...but I can't identify where it comes from any more than I can identify where any thoughts come from. I don't know here they're coming from. I used to believe it was just brain activity. If it's not that, then where is it coming from? I don't know and I can't find the source of it. I don't even know where to look, or how. "Looking" just feels like more thought. Like a dog chasing its tail. My stamina for it is waning, frustration has taken hold.

Who is doing the looking though? Turn beck and see what's here..

I've asked this question a lot and that's the problem...I don't know that, either. "Me" isn't the answer because there isn't one, that's something that can be seen. You have said "looking is happening" but who or what is it that's doing it? The looking just feels like more thoughts.

As well as what you described, is there also a sense that "this should not be happening" accompanying that?
See if this is the case..

Because if the truth is truly known, then belief in the lie wouldn't persist...that's what is assumed anyway. IE: If I know that Santa doesn't actually exist, then I wouldn't continue to believe in him. The ego can't be damaged if it doesn't actually exist.

It's just not like that. The sense of relief, or lightness or whatever that comes is somewhat of a side-effect of the realisation. This is not the goal. If you are seeking this,.then your attention is in the wrong place. You are looking for something in the future, which only exists as a thought story.

Fair enough, and I don't think it's the goal...the goal is just to stop having to have "faith" in something, or "believe" something, actually KNOW it. I want to know what the true nature of all of this is, not something I have to take on faith. So I guess I am looking for the symptoms of that knowing, which I've seen or read have been the case for others. If I'm asked if I have had the realization of no-self, I feel like I have to say, "Yes and no." Because I can see that it isn't something real, it isn't an entity or a decision-maker or action taker, it's just a label given to thoughts. However, nothing substantial has changed about my perspective on the world, or myself, or anything. At least, from my perspective.

Just keep.looking. look for the WHO that is frustrated.
Can it actually be found?
What is wrong with frustration arising?
This is an important pointer I think.

Again, no...it can't be. The feeling and the sensations exist, but the source can't be found when looked for. Frustration arising feels like a wrong that needs to be righted, a destination that can't be reached. The difficulty is that I ALSO know that what I'm looking for is here already. That makes it more frustrating that it can't be seen. Why is there frustration? Because there is a desire for knowing that can't be satisfied. Where does that come from? No idea. I never expected to be on this path and to be at a point where there doesn't seem to be a path anymore is difficult. Feels like groping blindly now.

Finally, please consider this very directly:
there is no me – is it true?

There is a feeling of "yes there is" but there is a seeing that says "no there isn't." I don't know why this persists in spite of the evidence. I really do feel like I have kept believing in Santa even knowing 100% he doesn't exist. It's making me a little crazy.

[JackBurton]

Maybe some progress here tonight. "Who is doing the looking?"

Like a dog chasing its tail, a self looking for a self, neither of which actually exist or can be found, or are even a thing that can DO something. So what is doing the looking? The same thing that is aware of everything that is happening here, every sensation or feeling or thought. It's just that somehow, this awareness has identified with the label of "self" and mistook all of that for what it is, even though none of those things describes awareness.

So what I am is this awareness, and none of what I am is the thoughts, feelings, sensations, and whatever else is being labeled a self.

This is what looks to be the case. No self exists so it cannot look or find itself, but what CAN see is what sees everything else.

Then there is this thought that arises to ask, "Do I have it right?" Which can immediately be identified as a self thought, a need for acknowledgement, a desire to be correct, but the awareness isn't affected by any of that. It can see already that this is the case, without a need for being acknowledged by another.

There's no special feeling or lightning bolt, no great easing or feeling of peace, but basically just an "Oh...that's all it was?" A misidentification of what "I" refers to. It doesn't refer to experiences or feelings or thoughts or emotions, it refers to what is experiencing and seeing all of those things.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin.

First of all I just want to say that I think you are doing really well with this inquiry, even though it may not seem like it at times.

I had written a response to your previous message but didn't post it in time, anyway sounds like something has moved since then which is good.

I hope this slower interaction is still working ok for you. It's just been impossible for me to post so regularly, although I'm getting some time off soon so this will probably change.

Let's explore where you seem to be now.
Please answer all the questions :)

Are you Awareness or Consciousness?

Does it feel like "I am the awareness/conscious-ness in which everything arises" or "all experience arises in awareness/consciousness"?

You might have heard these statements as a way of describing spiritual experience. In this inquiry, we are looking for proof. Are you truly awareness? Do experiences truly arise in awareness in a literal sense?

If what the word seems to refer to cannot be found in your actual experience, the word is only an idea, a theoretical mental concept.

Anything that cannot be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted is simply a thought, a mental concept.


1. Start with trying to find 'awareness'. This word is used in all kinds of contexts.
"Cup" is the name for a vessel you drink out of. What sensory experience is 'awareness' the name for?

2. If you found a sensory experience that is called 'awareness', where in this sensory experience is the information that this is YOU?

3. Hold what you call 'awareness' in your experience and listen to the sounds that are present. When the sound seems to arise in awareness, there should now be two entities, awareness and sound.
Are there 2 things?

4. Where does the sound end and the awareness of it start?

5. What is the boundary between the sound and awareness made of?

6. Can the point in time be found at which the sound crosses the border from being unknown to being known?

7. Does it feel like it is awareness that knows the sound? At which exact moment does the sound become known to awareness; upon arising, after some time, or shortly before it disappears?

8. What exactly is it that knows the sound? It needs to be experienced with the senses, not only thought of.

9. Does it feel like sound and awareness are one? The sound can be heard. What is the proof for an additional element 'awareness' being there?

[JackBurton]

First of all I just want to say that I think you are doing really well with this inquiry, even though it may not seem like it at times.

It definitely doesn't. It has felt somewhat stagnant up until yesterday and even now, it feels a little like grasping. At least there seemed to be truth in what came up there, in some way.

I hope this slower interaction is still working ok for you. It's just been impossible for me to post so regularly, although I'm getting some time off soon so this will probably change.

It's actually been fine because progress here has felt slow anyway, and life has been very busy. There is an exhaustion setting in...in addition to the physical exhaustion of how much work and how little sleep has been going on. But maybe that's what's needed. Who knows?

Does it feel like "I am the awareness/conscious-ness in which everything arises" or "all experience arises in awareness/consciousness"?

It has started to feel that way. In the beginning, it felt like "I" was a body and mind traversing the world and it was very subject-object oriented thought. As it stands right now, it feels like everything being seen, felt, or experienced in any way, within the range of the senses, is what I am. That's what I've been calling "awareness" because it's everything that I am aware of in the current moment. Everything that happens, or is felt, or is thought, is happening in that and that seems like what I am. Not just the body, the body and all of its sensations also exists within it.

You might have heard these statements as a way of describing spiritual experience. In this inquiry, we are looking for proof. Are you truly awareness? Do experiences truly arise in awareness in a literal sense?

1. Start with trying to find 'awareness'. This word is used in all kinds of contexts.
"Cup" is the name for a vessel you drink out of. What sensory experience is 'awareness' the name for?

Awareness is referring to the scope of what can be seen, felt, thought, etc... Actually, it just dawned on me as I was typing an answer that awareness might be a new label that just got applied to everything. Crap.

2. If you found a sensory experience that is called 'awareness', where in this sensory experience is the information that this is YOU?

There isn't a specific sensory experience that I can call awareness, it's just what seemed to encompass everything being experienced. The knowledge of what currently is the case here. The only information that it is "me" is related to the senses originating in the body.

3. Hold what you call 'awareness' in your experience and listen to the sounds that are present. When the sound seems to arise in awareness, there should now be two entities, awareness and sound.
Are there 2 things?

No, there's just the sound.

4. Where does the sound end and the awareness of it start?

It's just one thing...the sound happening. But there is such a strong belief that something must receive the sound, it is asserting itself constantly that sound cannot exist without a listener, someone or something to be aware of it.

5. What is the boundary between the sound and awareness made of?

There isn't one...it's just sound, nothing else can actually be found.

6. Can the point in time be found at which the sound crosses the border from being unknown to being known?

No...what an interesting question. The sound just is, it's already known.

7. Does it feel like it is awareness that knows the sound? At which exact moment does the sound become known to awareness; upon arising, after some time, or shortly before it disappears?

I have been listening to the computer and fans in the case. If the computer were turned off, then turning it on is the point at which the sound would become known again. So I guess it becomes known upon arising at that point. But when it's a persistent sound that is being experienced, it just is. It's not arising.

8. What exactly is it that knows the sound? It needs to be experienced with the senses, not only thought of.

I don't know, I'm confused. It's just hearing. The sound is recognized, labeled as "computer and fans." I don't know what it's labeled by because it's nothing I can experience with senses. I have always just said "the mind" but there isn't a mind that can be found in the senses, so I don't know the answer.

9. Does it feel like sound and awareness are one? The sound can be heard. What is the proof for an additional element 'awareness' being there?

There isn't any, it's just sound. The "awareness" is the seeming need for there to be a receiver or experiencer. Is there an experiencer, or is there just the experience? No listener, just sound. There's just everything that's happening, but happening to no one...just experience without an experiencer? Thoughts now come streaming in asserting that they are being directed at SOMEone, addressed to someone's attention. Who? "Me, of course." The me that doesn't exist, but just keeps coming back no matter how much of this is done. Ugh...

[JackBurton]

There has been more thought given to when a sound becomes known. When it arises it is recognized and then labeled, whatever it is. I've noticed that a sound may exist but not really be noticed because no focus has been applied to noticing it. When it is noticed, it's almost immediately labeled. What is doing the labeling? The same thing that is doing the thinking, or something else?

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
Hope you are doing well.

Actually, it just dawned on me as I was typing an answer that awareness might be a new label that just got applied to everything. Crap.

Could be, yes, that this idea of self has now become an imaginary 'thing' called awareness, but your answers are generally pretty clear - let's dig into them a bit more.

It's just one thing...the sound happening. But there is such a strong belief that something must receive the sound, it is asserting itself constantly that sound cannot exist without a listener, someone or something to be aware of it.

Could it be that "awareness" has become the new representation of the self that experiences?

I don't know, I'm confused. It's just hearing. The sound is recognized, labeled as "computer and fans." I don't know what it's labeled by because it's nothing I can experience with senses. I have always just said "the mind" but there isn't a mind that can be found in the senses, so I don't know the answer.

Well your answer is good, it's a bit of a trick question I suppose :) nothing can be found as a sensory experience or 'knower' of the sound :)

just experience without an experiencer? Thoughts now come streaming in asserting that they are being directed at SOMEone, addressed to someone's attention. Who? "Me, of course." The me that doesn't exist, but just keeps coming back no matter how much of this is done. Ugh

It's alright, really :)

Come back to the question:

'there is no me - is it true?'

Really consider the possibility this is true - if there already is no me then what is actually happening here?

There has been more thought given to when a sound becomes known. When it arises it is recognized and then labeled, whatever it is. I've noticed that a sound may exist but not really be noticed because no focus has been applied to noticing it. When it is noticed, it's almost immediately labeled. What is doing the labeling? The same thing that is doing the thinking, or something else?

More thought is generally not the best way to approach the inquiry, it just leads to, well, more thought!

Maybe refocus the question a little. Instead of 'what is doing the labelling / thinking etc'.

Is it true that there exists something that is actually here that is 'doing' all these things. Things are happening yes? Labelling / thinking etc. even the thought that says 'there must be someone here doing all this'. But is there, really?

The way to answer the question is to look, not by thinking. It helps a lot when you are relaxed, so inquiry is best at moments when you are able to be relaxed.

[JackBurton]

I guess the thing that I struggle with is looking and not thinking, because "looking" feels like "thinking" to me. I can't figure out how to look without it just being thoughts...and more and more, it seems like literally everything is a thought in one form or another.

Reading your questions, it's pretty clear that "awareness" just replaced "self" and there is still a desire for there to be a receiver of all this input. Strangely, there isn't a sense of a "doer" in that, actually there's been a growing feeling of powerlessness and lack of control. Things are just happening, thoughts might arise in the process but they don't necessarily have any bearing on what actually happens. And most things happen without much thought involved.

Really consider the possibility this is true - if there already is no me then what is actually happening here?

If there is no self, then it seems like there is just experience happening, with the body involved as a means of interacting with the environment and having the experiences, learning from them, and then having more experiences informed by what has ben learned. But there are times, sitting and just looking out, that it starts feeling less like looking "out" and more like just being "part of." Like the things I would normally think of as exterior (everything outside the body) actually includes the body and sensations, and visuals. I'm confused by the question you asked during the sensory inquiries, about whether it was "outside" or "inside" because maybe sometimes it feels like it's happening "inside" and I guess that would just be within consciousness.

Is it true that there exists something that is actually here that is 'doing' all these things. Things are happening yes? Labelling / thinking etc. even the thought that says 'there must be someone here doing all this'. But is there, really?

If not, then how does anyone affect change in their situation, when the thought or need arises? This is what I keep struggling with. If there isn't a self, and things are just happening, it's like a movie being projected on a screen. Nothing can be affected or changed, everything just happens independently and we're just along for the ride.

But to answer the question, nothing can be found when it's considered. It does feel like things are just happening. Even sitting down to do this was a sequence of events that just happened. Before this inquiry, the very fact that anything was happening or being done was evidence of a "self" that was controlling everything, but that was before anyone asked me to FIND that self and define it.

Help me with what "looking" is, when it comes to the inquiry...because I'm getting hung up on that and it just devolves into thoughts on top of thoughts.

[JackBurton]

One of the big problems is that there is a strong belief that the thoughts are all coming from "me" as a source. That I am doing the thinking of the thoughts. So there MUST be a self, as the source of these thoughts. Thoughts about anything, including the questions you pose. But that self as a source of thoughts can't be found...only more thoughts about it. The thoughts, ultimately, don't really contribute anything other than adding noise. Nothing is clarified or discovered.

So where does that leave it...because it just seems like an endless thought exercise that goes nowhere, and can't be resolved. A search for something that doesn't exist and can't be found. Sitting here typing words that are just another product of thought, not apparently belonging to or coming from a "me" but from some other place. None of it having any real value, ultimately. There is some understanding forming here now of why some gurus have said the highest teaching is silence, because anything else is just a product of thought and totally subjective, so of no real value.

So confusing. Hope your holidays are going well. Still floundering here.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
Happy Christmas / holidays :)
Hope you are well.

Help me with what "looking" is, when it comes to the inquiry...because I'm getting hung up on that and it just devolves into thoughts on top of thoughts.

Do you remember the pointer we started with with the coloured socks? The difference between going to your thoughts / memory of when you put them on in the morning VS actually checking to see what colour they are?
It's a good metaphor you can use as a litmus test if it becomes unclear.

Something also important to bear in mind, is thoughts can also be present, but you are not looking to them for validation. So it can take a bit of practice to learn to ignore what they are saying, essentially.
I think this is where you are likely fixating.

I am doing the thinking of the thoughts. So there MUST be a self, as the source of these thoughts

Also - reading this, and your recent replies it is becoming clear that you are getting stuck with the possibility of there being no 'me'.

I think it's important we address this as it seems to be blocking the inquiry.

Could it be that, although you want to see through the self-illusion, there is also a part which dreads it? What could happen to you and your life if it became clear that there was no me?

[JackBurton]

I have such a hard time with differentiating "looking" from "thinking" in this process. The closest I think I've come is when I had those moments of sensory awareness while forgetting the existence of a body. No thought in that, just feeling. But in these questions or process of searching for a nonexistent self, thoughts seem like all there is sometimes. I can't get to a FEELING there, which is what it seems like is missing, maybe. It's frustrating because I really do want to let go of this, but it doesn't seem to matter how much I want to.

Could it be that, although you want to see through the self-illusion, there is also a part which dreads it? What could happen to you and your life if it became clear that there was no me?

I don't know, I have fears about there being nothing in control of what happens to "me" which is a job that has always been credited to the self. I also think this desire for significance, for past achievements or "doings" that are a source of pride and therefore happiness, to basically not be attributable to a self...not being able to reconcile how it can just be, without the involvement of a self? That feeling that has crept in so much that there is experience happening and decisions and events and actions happening and maybe "I" am just along for the ride. Vascillating between "I'm just the observer here" and "I must have some control here."

Like, just stopping there while typing and asking, "Where did these words come from? Where does the personality come from? What is it that constitutes Kevin...this "me" that is so strongly identified with? Is it really not coming from a self, and if not what is it that is creating the unique individual named Kevin?

It's hard. On a logical level I know that what I'm looking for is already the case and therefore what I'm giving up doesn't exist in the first place, so what is there to fear losing? But the delusion is so damn strong, man...

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
Happy new year!

Man, I really feel your frustration here.
I hope you can find some time to relax a bit.
It will help a lot with the inquiry, and 'looking'.

I have such a hard time with differentiating "looking" from "thinking" in this process. The closest I think I've come is when I had those moments of sensory awareness while forgetting the existence of a body. No thought in that, just feeling

Looking is not some kind of special or rare state of experience. It is very ordinary and given at every moment. It's just sensing, or the faculty of perception, as it normally happens. If you look out the window at a tree, you don't wonder if you see it or not, it's either seen or not. Thought on other hand can say all kinds of confusing things about what is seen, and this seems to be where you are getting hooked. But even the thoughts are seen / heard, without any confusion, and this is the simple looking, or awareness of them.
Can you notice the difference between the actual arising, and noticing of thought VS the content, or story it contains? What is more real? What is actually happening? I hope this is helpful, otherwise we can go back to some pointers which may help clarify this.

thoughts seem like all there is sometimes. I can't get to a FEELING there, which is what it seems like is missing

Maybe start with putting your attention in the body sense? Can you feel sensations in your chest? Start with that and relax into it. Then you can ask a question like 'there is no self, is it true?' and look to see how the body responds, keep your attention focused on the physical sensation, to see if anything comes up, perhaps something that could be labelled fear?

It's hard. On a logical level I know that what I'm looking for is already the case and therefore what I'm giving up doesn't exist in the first place, so what is there to fear losing

Yeah I know man, it doesn't make sense on a logical level, which is why it is confusing and challenging for the mind to accept. Just try and trust the process. If there is fear, then this is your truth. It's here to show you something. See if you can get in touch with it, you don't have to understand it. You could thank it for protecting you so well and ask what it's keeping you safe from. Can you feel into that experience? It's ok for thought to be there, but put your attention on the physical sensations of the experience. Does it have a center in the body somewhere?

[JackBurton]

Man, I really feel your frustration here.
I hope you can find some time to relax a bit.
It will help a lot with the inquiry, and 'looking'.

I took a bit of a break to just not ponder any of this, hoping to come back it with a fresher outlook. Our financial stresses and work schedules have made it difficult as well, just not getting enough sleep and so forth. If that's even important. I'm not sure if it is.

Can you notice the difference between the actual arising, and noticing of thought VS the content, or story it contains? What is more real? What is actually happening? I hope this is helpful, otherwise we can go back to some pointers which may help clarify this.

I think I could use something to help clarify this, I am not understanding the question really.

Maybe start with putting your attention in the body sense? Can you feel sensations in your chest? Start with that and relax into it. Then you can ask a question like 'there is no self, is it true?' and look to see how the body responds, keep your attention focused on the physical sensation, to see if anything comes up, perhaps something that could be labelled fear?

It's tough. When I do this, I feel nothing really. It's almost like there's just this big "does not compute" reaction, nothing happens. No feelings arise. Thoughts might come, but that's not useful. The only thing that happens physically is what has happened every time I touch on something that seems to be pointing to the truth, ever since I had the "I'm nothing/everything" moment last year, and that's the ringing sensation in my head and the tingling in my arms. It is "dormant" most of the time but I just did what you suggested and it immediately flared up. It's getting kind of irritating honestly.

I think when the question is asked, "There is no self, is this true," there is a thought that answers. The thought is based on what "I know" from what has been absorbed from reading or watching videos, and from our inquiry. A self cannot be found, it is a figment of the imagination, a label applied to thoughts, so yes, it's true. But that thought doesn't do anything; it doesn't enlighten, it doesn't bring an increased awareness, it just answers a question. So then the next thought is, "What to do instead of that?" So re-ask the question and look for an emotional reaction. There isn't really one. It's hollow somehow...just like I said before, "Does not compute."

It's frustrating. Just feels hopeless right now. I don't think there's fear of there not being a self, that isn't what's felt. What is being felt right now is just frustration at an unchanging condition that has no reason for being at this point, but still is anyway...and no idea what will rectify that.

To be honest, I'm not sure why it matters so much. It's like something stuck in the teeth for me now, and there's a feeling like I can't stop picking at it until it's out. But it's also that same level of frustrating when it WON'T COME OUT, no matter what I do.