Newbie to LU, just registered, looking for a guide

[Elad]

Hi Tim, you never answered my last message. Please reread. Then, please look with sincere honesty, love and precision: Why did you not answer. Then let me know what is happening.

Thanks for the update Tim, nice to hear from you, and glad to hear life is flowing well.

Okay, lets see if we can both sharpen the understanding, trusting this is part of how you move as you say, and then go beyond it. Seeing is really beyond words and concepts.

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Final words for now: I recommend writing often, don't wait to have something clever or profound or special or even new to share. Just share what is seen and felt and observed, what is there and shows up effortlessly and without choice, in response to my questions and exercises. Then the process will do itself. We can't control this anyways. You can't do this. The discovery happens through noticing how experience unfolds by itself, regardless of preferences and judgements (that also happen by themselves). The questions and exercises plus whatever comes up in you as you work with it, will show that. Doesn't matter how stuck or confused or repetitive it seems. In fact those are good doors to help recognize that there is no self in control whatsoever.

[echoecho]

Hi Elad,

Sorry I didn't reply!!! I've been traveling an awful lot, then had a lot of work to catch up on when I got back. (Also my dog died, and wife had to go away for a couple of months, Mum was hospitalized...so its been pretty difficult here)

But the biggest reason was I simply could not answer for the life of me. I was pondering the questions to answer honestly and plainly but I just couldn't find an answer. I still can't. I honestly don't know how to reply. So I'll just respond as best I can.

Sorry for the delay - I do know this works better when we stay in touch regularly.

So I will try to reply as best I can.

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

No, it's all one thing as I see it. I'm not even sure what it would mean if it was separate. It's completely one and the same.

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

No. That is my honest answer when I look. I don't see "something"...i don't see or feel anything. But it's hard to trust what I see - what if there are things there I don't see or am somehow overlooking?

I also have pause to say this because at times I do get frustrated or embarrassed - so surely someone must be there who's feeling those things? This question is posed as a Yes / No question. If however it could be answered on a sliding scale, I would be more comfortable about saying there was less of me here than when I started.

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Nothing or nobody. These things would happen regardless I feel (seeing or not, being smart or not)...there doesn't have to be an "I" here.

I just feel a huge boundless space (if I had to say there is anything here), and its hard to ascribe any characteristics to it - it's just empty, ever-present, expansive and peaceful I suppose.

I'm not sure really how to express it, because I'm not 100% sure what is going on.

[Elad]

Hi Tim, good to hear from you!

Sorry I didn't reply!!! I've been traveling an awful lot, then had a lot of work to catch up on when I got back. (Also my dog died, and wife had to go away for a couple of months, Mum was hospitalized...so its been pretty difficult here)

Wow, sorry for the loss of your dog. This is a lot. I respect your taking space for that.

But the biggest reason was I simply could not answer for the life of me. I was pondering the questions to answer honestly and plainly but I just couldn't find an answer. I still can't. I honestly don't know how to reply. So I'll just respond as best I can.

Sorry for the delay - I do know this works better when we stay in touch regularly.

So I will try to reply as best I can.

I hear you. It is helpful in this process to just send the best you have again and again, and if you get "corrected" or you are stuck or repetitive let it be a fruitful part of the process. Just see the ego that comes up in relation to that, fear of failure, need to be seen a partiular way and see yourself in a partiuclar way, etc etc. And just see it and look if any of it refers to any true self. This is part of how this process works itself into the deeper emotional levels.

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

No, it's all one thing as I see it. I'm not even sure what it would mean if it was separate. It's completely one and the same.

Yes, clear.

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

No. That is my honest answer when I look. I don't see "something"...i don't see or feel anything. But it's hard to trust what I see - what if there are things there I don't see or am somehow overlooking?

I also have pause to say this because at times I do get frustrated or embarrassed - so surely someone must be there who's feeling those things? This question is posed as a Yes / No question. If however it could be answered on a sliding scale, I would be more comfortable about saying there was less of me here than when I started.

No. For embarrassment does there need to be an "embarraster", for the wind to blow does there need to be a "winder"? These moments of embarrassment, anxiety, etc. are perfect moments to look if there actually is a self that is having them, or just an illusion and associated feelings.

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Nothing or nobody. These things would happen regardless I feel (seeing or not, being smart or not)...there doesn't have to be an "I" here.

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

I just feel a huge boundless space (if I had to say there is anything here), and its hard to ascribe any characteristics to it - it's just empty, ever-present, expansive and peaceful I suppose.

I'm not sure really how to express it, because I'm not 100% sure what is going on.

Right, would it be fair to say "boundless space" is at best a "pointer" or a "metaphor"?

Does words capture the whole? Do you need words to capture the whole in order to experience the whole?

[echoecho]

Hi Tim, good to hear from you!

Sorry I didn't reply!!! I've been traveling an awful lot, then had a lot of work to catch up on when I got back. (Also my dog died, and wife had to go away for a couple of months, Mum was hospitalized...so its been pretty difficult here)

Wow, sorry for the loss of your dog. This is a lot. I respect your taking space for that.

Thank you Elad, I appreciate that. We all really miss her, she was such a kind and gentle soul.

But the biggest reason was I simply could not answer for the life of me. I was pondering the questions to answer honestly and plainly but I just couldn't find an answer. I still can't. I honestly don't know how to reply. So I'll just respond as best I can.

Sorry for the delay - I do know this works better when we stay in touch regularly.

So I will try to reply as best I can.

I hear you. It is helpful in this process to just send the best you have again and again, and if you get "corrected" or you are stuck or repetitive let it be a fruitful part of the process. Just see the ego that comes up in relation to that, fear of failure, need to be seen a partiular way and see yourself in a partiuclar way, etc etc. And just see it and look if any of it refers to any true self. This is part of how this process works itself into the deeper emotional levels.

I guess I don't mind looking like a fool, or "failing" - but I do need to make the time commitment. My work is brutal - and I just need to carve some space out. Also i know my replies don't need to be well thought out - so i can just type whatever is coming up....which shouldn't be too difficult!

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

No, it's all one thing as I see it. I'm not even sure what it would mean if it was separate. It's completely one and the same.

Yes, clear.

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

No. That is my honest answer when I look. I don't see "something"...i don't see or feel anything. But it's hard to trust what I see - what if there are things there I don't see or am somehow overlooking?

I also have pause to say this because at times I do get frustrated or embarrassed - so surely someone must be there who's feeling those things? This question is posed as a Yes / No question. If however it could be answered on a sliding scale, I would be more comfortable about saying there was less of me here than when I started.

No. For embarrassment does there need to be an "embarraster", for the wind to blow does there need to be a "winder"? These moments of embarrassment, anxiety, etc. are perfect moments to look if there actually is a self that is having them, or just an illusion and associated feelings.

Hmmm....this is subtle. I never considered this. To be honest, emotions are very fleeting and not sticky....and I don't think "Oh I am so embarrassed, what am i going to do, how will i live through this etc etc" then dwell on it. it's like perhaps an old muscle memory - a reflex action that occurs. When i say it's not sticky - i mean its there but kind of independent from me. Like I don't feel washed in that emotion. it's more like a weak shadow of what it might used to have been.

All that is to say...yes, i don't think i feel there is a self to which these feelings happen to. They're just kind of there, but then float off again. yes, almost like the wind, just arising, then falling away - but yes i don't feel a great connection to them.

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Nothing or nobody. These things would happen regardless I feel (seeing or not, being smart or not)...there doesn't have to be an "I" here.

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

Oooo i find that a very powerful question! I feel deep joy and a sensation of calm like "everything is ok, and always will be"

This feels like a new sensation, and its comforting, I'd just like to stay here. (After sending this message I'm going to sit in this space longer!)

Right, would it be fair to say "boundless space" is at best a "pointer" or a "metaphor"?

Does words capture the whole? Do you need words to capture the whole in order to experience the whole?

From where I am, "boundless space" is literal - its the predominant (or only?) feeling which is always here - its feels limitless, infinite, without beginning or end. its just this expansiveness which is ever-present. i feel it all day if i stop for a minute and look.

Thank you Elad. All the best.

[Elad]

Hi Tim!

Hmmm....this is subtle. I never considered this. To be honest, emotions are very fleeting and not sticky....and I don't think "Oh I am so embarrassed, what am i going to do, how will i live through this etc etc" then dwell on it. it's like perhaps an old muscle memory - a reflex action that occurs. When i say it's not sticky - i mean its there but kind of independent from me. Like I don't feel washed in that emotion. it's more like a weak shadow of what it might used to have been.

All that is to say...yes, i don't think i feel there is a self to which these feelings happen to. They're just kind of there, but then float off again. yes, almost like the wind, just arising, then falling away - but yes i don't feel a great connection to them.

Why do you write "I don't think there is a self that has them, rather then "there is no self that has them"? Any doubt?

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

Oooo i find that a very powerful question! I feel deep joy and a sensation of calm like "everything is ok, and always will be"

This feels like a new sensation, and its comforting, I'd just like to stay here. (After sending this message I'm going to sit in this space longer!)

Beautiful, yes, just enjoy this...

From where I am, "boundless space" is literal - its the predominant (or only?) feeling which is always here - its feels limitless, infinite, without beginning or end. its just this expansiveness which is ever-present. i feel it all day if i stop for a minute and look.

Hmm

Is this boundless space you or not you or neither or both?
Is it mental or physical or neither or both?
Does it include everything in it or is there actually no "it" that is separate from everything/THIS?

Remember! In this inquiry we don't look for answers in the mind, including its mystical thoughts and accompanying emotions. We look for answers in reality - what is direct seen, felt, smelled, heard, tasted plus the noticing the movement and nature of thought.

[echoecho]

Hi Elad!

Hmmm....this is subtle. I never considered this. To be honest, emotions are very fleeting and not sticky....and I don't think "Oh I am so embarrassed, what am i going to do, how will i live through this etc etc" then dwell on it. it's like perhaps an old muscle memory - a reflex action that occurs. When i say it's not sticky - i mean its there but kind of independent from me. Like I don't feel washed in that emotion. it's more like a weak shadow of what it might used to have been.

All that is to say...yes, i don't think i feel there is a self to which these feelings happen to. They're just kind of there, but then float off again. yes, almost like the wind, just arising, then falling away - but yes i don't feel a great connection to them.

Why do you write "I don't think there is a self that has them, rather then "there is no self that has them"? Any doubt?

I feel I'm in unknown territory. I don't feel a heavy self, but I don't quite obviously feel unequivocally "no self". I've read people don't even have to ask because it is so obvious there is no self...but i don't feel that complete loss yet.

Also I might perceive no or less self, but I'm also not 100% sure that I'm not deluding myself somehow. Even intentionally or unintentionally - perception is a funny thing.

I don't feel comfortable unilaterally declaring that - when I haven't that slightest clue what I am doing!

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

Oooo i find that a very powerful question! I feel deep joy and a sensation of calm like "everything is ok, and always will be"

This feels like a new sensation, and its comforting, I'd just like to stay here. (After sending this message I'm going to sit in this space longer!)

Beautiful, yes, just enjoy this...

From where I am, "boundless space" is literal - its the predominant (or only?) feeling which is always here - its feels limitless, infinite, without beginning or end. its just this expansiveness which is ever-present. i feel it all day if i stop for a minute and look.

Hmm

Is this boundless space you or not you or neither or both?


Well, i don't really feel I know what is "me" - so the only thing I feel which means EVERYTHING is this huge vast emptiness/fullness/peace/silence/infinity. I wouldn't say both - all there is this ... thing (Awareness? not sure what is the right term, but it ever-present, all pervading, and just here, always, inside and out of me...there is no beginning or en d of it)

Is it mental or physical or neither or both?


It feels physical. I'm very hesitant to say "mental" means because I have zero self-talk or thoughts. Maybe every once in a while... but I have almost zero unconscious mental activity (ongoing self chatter / thinking out loud / voice in my head type thing). Thinking and problem solving still happen, but it just arises.

Does it include everything in it or is there actually no "it" that is separate from everything/THIS?

no, it doesn't feel like it includes everything. that would there is it and everything.

there's no "it" is separate from - it is all there is. only that. only it, everything, everywhere.because it's only this one thing,

Remember! In this inquiry we don't look for answers in the mind, including its mystical thoughts and accompanying emotions. We look for answers in reality - what is direct seen, felt, smelled, heard, tasted plus the noticing the movement and nature of thought.

Yes, this is what jumps out primarily as truth. and what is here, now.

This is all so out of left field for me, and i have no expectations about what to expect, and it's hard for me intellectualize it (or make answers in the mind).

Thanks for the continued guiding Elad. Glad I have someone to guide me through this, because I'm just scrambling around in the dark....or at best guiding myself by intuition, which is very hit and miss!

[Elad]

Hi Tim, sounds like things are unfolding beautifully. Let's nudge some more.

I feel I'm in unknown territory. I don't feel a heavy self, but I don't quite obviously feel unequivocally "no self". I've read people don't even have to ask because it is so obvious there is no self...but i don't feel that complete loss yet.

Also I might perceive no or less self, but I'm also not 100% sure that I'm not deluding myself somehow. Even intentionally or unintentionally - perception is a funny thing.

I don't feel comfortable unilaterally declaring that - when I haven't that slightest clue what I am doing!

Do you imagine that this resolve in a way where even intellectual doubt is impossible? As if we here are capable of or need to resolve intellectually the questions al the great philosopher and scientists never resolved and agreed on...

Could it be that this doubt is not about that something is missing, can you look what might be there underneath emotionally or in old beliefs about yourself?


And regarding direct experience -

You say you would not call it mental, that's clear. But would it not also be equally a mental fabrication to call it material, as in something separate from the mental? Can you find a real place where material and mental, outside and inside, separate? If yes, where exactly in direct experience is the deviding line found?

Here is some inspiration from the historical Buddha (Bahiya sutra):


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

[echoecho]

Hi Tim, sounds like things are unfolding beautifully. Let's nudge some more.

I feel I'm in unknown territory. I don't feel a heavy self, but I don't quite obviously feel unequivocally "no self". I've read people don't even have to ask because it is so obvious there is no self...but i don't feel that complete loss yet.

Also I might perceive no or less self, but I'm also not 100% sure that I'm not deluding myself somehow. Even intentionally or unintentionally - perception is a funny thing.

I don't feel comfortable unilaterally declaring that - when I haven't that slightest clue what I am doing!

Do you imagine that this resolve in a way where even intellectual doubt is impossible? As if we here are capable of or need to resolve intellectually the questions al the great philosopher and scientists never resolved and agreed on...

Could it be that this doubt is not about that something is missing, can you look what might be there underneath emotionally or in old beliefs about yourself?

My feeling is this is really not intellectual. I have no problem mentally accepting it. In fact i embrace it wholeheartedly. I have no arguments against it. I have zero problem not reconciling this mentally. (My work is highly mental with having to rationalize everything, so I'm very ready to get on board with something I have no need to rationalize!) I'm ready to leave the mind behind !

Also I love koans, which break or split the mind - the mind just can't handle it - and it's actually one of my favorite things...watching my mind not compute.

But yes, the fact remains there is a blocker here. I won't accept it. Why?

Could it be that this doubt is not about that something is missing, can you look what might be there underneath emotionally or in old beliefs about yourself?

Yes, i feel this is nearer to it. I don't actually know the answer, but just thinking out loud. Perhaps i feel i don't deserve it, it is too special for me - and i'm just a nobody, no one special ...and why would no one special deserve something special?

Well, that statement has two parts: the "someone" and the "deserve"

And this connects back to the exercise you gave me. Who has to see or not see? Who has to be smart or not smart? Who gets it or loses it?

And equally I can ask who deserves or doesn't deserve?

Continuing to think out loud, i tell myself (excuse the unfiltered stream of consciousness!):

deserve or not deserve is irrelevant. as was trying or not. as was getting and losing it was.

who is here to deserve or not. no one. so that is a moot point. irrelevant.

and as far as "deserve" goes - this is always here, and available to everyone.... it's here, ands its yours if you want it. and even if you don't want it, its still here. in fact you can't not have it.

in fact its harder to work to not see it and reject it, than it is too accept and welcome it.

why can't you just say no one is here?

perhaps it seems presumptuous or impolite....or too self-centered...

so ... something about declaring myself as having no -self seems very egotistical and self-centered ! lol

again constructs... if i feel no self, which i do...then nothing wrong with saying that - thats what this is about just saying what you see directly.

(again i feel like i'm almost talking myself into it. but honestly i'm not - I'm trying to lay out the facts and clear things up. But if no self is a shift, then i don't feel shifted....!

but yes. i do see that this is available to me now with no doubts standing in the way..





And regarding direct experience -

You say you would not call it mental, that's clear. But would it not also be equally a mental fabrication to call it material, as in something separate from the mental? Can you find a real place where material and mental, outside and inside, separate? If yes, where exactly in direct experience is the dividing line found?

Yes, you're right. It is a mental invention to call it separate from mental - i don't see a place where it all is divided at all.


Here is some inspiration from the historical Buddha (Bahiya sutra):


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

This is amazing. I see how I've always adulterated nearly everything i've done after reading this.

This really does point me in the right way.

It's hard really to report "progress" - but i do sense a slight loosening since your last few posts...i think i need to soak this in.

[Elad]

Beautiful beautiful

Please look:

1) Thoughts about being special or not special. Do they refer to anything else then thoughts and sensations? Is there in any way a receiver or experiencer of them?

2) Sometimes doubt is actually mostly just a sensation that needs to be felt, and it has nothing to do with real doubt about how things are. In that case, what is most helpful is to leave it, and just see if the doubt then goes away by itself, the way that the mud will fall to the bottom of a glass, if you don't shake it.

Let me know how things continue to unfold.

[Elad]

Beautiful beautiful

Please look:

1) Thoughts about being special or not special. Do they refer to anything else then thoughts and sensations? Is there in any way a receiver or experiencer of them?

2) Sometimes doubt is actually mostly just a sensation that needs to be felt, and it has nothing to do with real doubt about how things are. In that case, what is most helpful is to leave it, and just see if the doubt then goes away by itself, the way that the mud will fall to the bottom of a glass, if you don't shake it.

Let me know how things continue to unfold.

Tim, how are things ufolding?