Dedicated Seeker Ready For The Push

[treelight]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is just a concept and I can’t find the self anywhere in real life. I am convinced the self does not exist, not because other people tell me in books, but because I have looked so many times without finding it. In the last two months or so, I have become convinced that there is no self here to wake up, so I might as well stop trying.

What are you looking for at LU?
I don’t feel “finished” because time feels so real for me. I don’t believe in the self, but I feel like a person or body that exists in time. I know those are concepts, I have tried looking into them a lot, over and over. But I still wish for things to be different than they are, and they still feel like they are happening to a “me”. Seeing that the self is something I don’t control, or that it doesn’t exist in any real way, has not kept me from suffering. There must be a part of me that still thinks when bad things arise, they are happening for this body.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am very willing to look into my direct experience. I want truth so badly, some days I feel like I’m burning for it. I want help and support to truly understand/wake up from illusion. I want to quit seeking, or to quit believing that seeking will end in an awakened me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing nondual meditation and inquiry for the past 6-7 years. I have read many books, trying to wake up. I had a nondual experience 7 years ago that put me on this path, after reading the power of now by eckhart tolle. I no longer try to get that experience back, as I know that’s a trap, but I am still changing a final awakening. There’s a self here that thinks it needs to wake up, no matter how much I poke holes through the illusion of a self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Magdalena]

Hello Treelight (is that what you’d like me to call you, or some other name?),

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Magdalena and I’m happy to assist you.

You say:

I am convinced the self does not exist, not because other people tell me in books, but because I have looked so many times without finding it. In the last two months or so, I have become convinced that there is no self here to wake up, so I might as well stop trying.

Good. It’s helpful that, when in doubt, you can always check how things are by looking.


Let us now look at your expectations as for what an “awakened” life will be like (in future, right? Not now, by any chance?) You say:

I still wish for things to be different than they are, and they still feel like they are happening to a “me”. Seeing that the self is something I don’t control, or that it doesn’t exist in any real way, has not kept me from suffering.

In other words, you believe that, once an “awakening” happens, there will be no more suffering for an “awakened” you (that’s in future, too, right?).
Where have you got this idea from, in the first place?
Secondly, what makes you think YOU can control the process and get it in the way that YOU like?

There must be a part of me that still thinks when bad things arise, they are happening for this body.

And what makes that “part of YOU” think that some things are “bad” as opposed to others that are not?

There’s a self here that thinks it needs to wake up, no matter how much I poke holes through the illusion of a self.

So, you’ve looked and found no self, and now you’re saying there is a self there? A self that thinks?


Please answer all my questions. Before you do, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: viewtopic.php?t=660

[treelight]

Hello Treelight (is that what you’d like me to call you, or some other name?)

My name is Celina. Thank you so much for your help — truly, it means a lot.

Let us now look at your expectations as for what an “awakened” life will be like (in future, right? Not now, by any chance?)

It seems that way, yeah. I have tried to look into time, because past and future seem to just be a story continued by the mind. But it feels like time is happening for this body and it feels like since I’m “not awake now”, for lack of better phrasing, that it will have to come “later”. These are stories by the mind, which I can see to an extent, but it feels real in my lived experience.

In other words, you believe that, once an “awakening” happens, there will be no more suffering for an “awakened” you (that’s in future, too, right?).
Where have you got this idea from, in the first place?

I kind of think this, but I’d say it a bit differently.

Pain is inevitable, both physical and emotional. Sadness, illness, etc. will still arise with awakening. I believe that pain just happens, it’s a natural part of life. But the extreme suffering that comes from believing these things are wrong? That’s what I believe can be seen through, or can end for me. I guess I wouldn’t say that an “awakened me” is going to get this, more like… once I see it’s not personal and that it isn’t happening for anyone, the unnecessary suffering can fall away.

Yes, it feels like this will happen in the future. When I go to look for a future, it’s only mind stuff. It doesn’t actually exist. I have never found the future, the same way I have never been able to find a self.

These ideas have probably been cultivated because of glimpses I’ve had, books I’ve read, and hidden expectations for awakening. I understand on an intellectual level that expectations keep me away from the truth I’m searching for, but I don’t know how to stop believing them when they are automatic processes.

Secondly, what makes you think YOU can control the process and get it in the way that YOU like?

I don’t think this anymore, for about a year now. I don’t think I’m in control of life at all. That is probably what I can see most clearly. I am not the one doing any of this and I don’t see free will (for anyone) anywhere I look. It’s almost like we have zero choice and life is living through us.

Even though I can see my power is limited or even non existent, there is still an idea of what “awakening looks like”. It’s not that I believe a person becomes more peaceful, calm, etc. I think things stay mostly the same. I just expect an internal change, where I am no longer relating to life or “myself” in the same way. Hope that makes sense.

And what makes that “part of YOU” think that some things are “bad” as opposed to others that are not?

Personal preference and conditioning, I suppose. That “part of me” that claims certain things are bad manifests and appears as thoughts and strong resistance patterns.

So, you’ve looked and found no self, and now you’re saying there is a self there? A self that thinks?

This is helpful, thank you. I like how you phrased this, because it has made me question what I truly do know…

I can’t find a self. I have looked thousands of times and have never found a separate self. The same is true with time. Past and future don’t exist outside of the mind, it’s just story. But seeing that these things are just stories have not released me from identification or feeling that it’s personal to me.

When I really look at this, I can see that I fluctuate back and forth between believing that there is a self here and that no self exists. When I have seen clearly that no self exists, it punctures the personal suffering, and I get some relief. That relief does not seem to last, and I get caught back up inside stories of identification.

Perhaps the idea that no self exists is just as false as saying that one does exist? Maybe I continue to suffer because my mind believes it’s one way or another, when in reality, maybe it’s neither? Maybe it can’t be said if there is a self here, because that would be the self claiming it?

[Magdalena]

Hello, Celina,

Nice to meet you. 😉

…past and future seem to just be a story continued by the mind. But it feels like time is happening for this body and it feels like since I’m “not awake now”, for lack of better phrasing, that it will have to come “later”. These are stories by the mind, which I can see to an extent, but it feels real in my lived experience.

How do you know that you are “not AWAKE NOW”?

Pain is inevitable, both physical and emotional. Sadness, illness, etc. will still arise with awakening. I believe that pain just happens, it’s a natural part of life.

Whatever happens, happens – and that’s that (awakening or no awakening).

But the extreme suffering that comes from believing these things are wrong?

I hear you. I’m not going to say that everything is just perfect and these are all appearances etc. (although that may be a possibility, too – who knows?)

Now, consider any circumstance, event or happening that you believe to be wrong – whether personal or global, doesn’t matter, and look: Is it at all possible that, given whatever led to it – all the circumstances and so on – is it at all possible that things could be happening or could have happened any differently?
Tell me what you find.

I understand on an intellectual level that expectations keep me away from the truth I’m searching for, but I don’t know how to stop believing them when they are automatic processes.

Relax and chill. 😉 No need to get frustrated about any of this. It’s all here already – where could it go? 😉Can anything keep “you” away? Seriously?

Don’t your expectations hang on to your identity as “Dedicated Seeker”?
What would it be like to live one day without this identification – without believing all those mind stories to be true?
Can you try it? Just for one day? 😉

I am not the one doing any of this and I don’t see free will (for anyone) anywhere I look. It’s almost like we have zero choice and life is living through us.

Or living as us – would you agree?
How does this observation that there is no free will translate into situations and events that can be good or bad etc.?

Even though I can see my power is limited or even non existent, there is still an idea of what “awakening looks like”.

What if you imagined you’d never heard about “awakening” or anything of the sort? How would life be lived then? Can you try this out – for a day as well?

When I have seen clearly that no self exists, it punctures the personal suffering, and I get some relief. That relief does not seem to last, and I get caught back up inside stories of identification.

This is perfectly natural.
How quick are you to see that you’ve bought into some story?

Perhaps the idea that no self exists is just as false as saying that one does exist?

Perhaps. How can we really know either way?
It is one thing to find no separation etc. wherever you look, but drawing far-fetched conclusions based on that is quite another.
Can you live with this not-knowing?

[treelight]

How do you know that you are “not AWAKE NOW”?

My mind tells me I’m not and I believe those thoughts. It feels like there wouldn’t be this much confusion if I was awake now, but I see that that’s just a story my mind is telling me. I guess I can’t really know that I’m not awake now, because I don’t have very good proof one way or another.

Now, consider any circumstance, event or happening that you believe to be wrong – whether personal or global, doesn’t matter, and look: Is it at all possible that, given whatever led to it – all the circumstances and so on – is it at all possible that things could be happening or could have happened any differently?
Tell me what you find.

Things can’t be different from how they are. If any single thing were to change, it would change everything else, like a giant ripple going out. Things happen the way they happen, even when what’s happening is resistance or judgement…

I’m not sure why it feels like things can be different. Like, just as an example, but when I get bad news or something — there’s that natural reaction of, “no, I wanted it to go THIS WAY”. And for whatever reason, it feels like it could have gone that way.

This doesn’t hold up under inspection, though. Things happen, we can’t even say for sure what meaning that has. How can it be different if it’s happening on its own?

Relax and chill. 😉 No need to get frustrated about any of this. It’s all here already – where could it go? 😉Can anything keep “you” away? Seriously?

No, “I’m” always here. Awareness, awakeness, whatever you want to call it, SOMETHING is always here. It feels like it’s myself, but that doesn’t hold up to inspection either. I can’t find anything or anyone separate.

Don’t your expectations hang on to your identity as “Dedicated Seeker”?
What would it be like to live one day without this identification – without believing all those mind stories to be true?
Can you try it? Just for one day? 😉

Yes, considering myself to be a dedicated seeker definitely comes with its own baked in expectations.

When you ask if I can try that for one day, the thing that comes to mind is that I was a miserable person before I found out about nonduality. When I knew nothing about awakening, I was depressed, hopeless, lost in mental illness. I had a two week glimpse six years ago and it changed everything for me. I know you’re not saying ‘go back to living without spirituality and just believe your old thoughts’, but that is what comes to mind. Like, if I’m not seeking and continuing this search, I regress. I go back to that lost person, and not with any clearer idea of who or what I am.

If I dropped ALL OF IT…the spirituality, the seeking, the person with the hard past, every story, etc etc. I have no idea what that would be like. I have tried and I seem to get swept up by my mind with stories of suffering or why I need to keep seeking.

I will try this, though, and report back to you!! I think this is one I need to sit with more and try practicing.

Or living as us – would you agree?
How does this observation that there is no free will translate into situations and events that can be good or bad etc.?

Living as us… Yes, that feels correct.

I’m not sure. If there is no free will (which is what I see in my experience), how can anything be labeled as good or bad? It goes back to it’s all just happening. And if there is no free will, how can anything be personal? It wouldn’t be personal, it would be just what reality is appearing as.

What if you imagined you’d never heard about “awakening” or anything of the sort? How would life be lived then? Can you try this out – for a day as well?

Yes. I need to practice this, I will try and report back. My mind does go back to the things I mentioned above, about my sadness and confusion before spirituality, but as I write all of this out, I see that my sadness and confusion never left, it just moved over to spiritual concepts.

This is perfectly natural.
How quick are you to see that you’ve bought into some story?

Sometimes within SECONDS! Other times, maybe a day or so. This has gotten so much better in the last year or so. I can be triggered and know in the middle of it that I’m buying into some unreal story.

Perhaps. How can we really know either way?
It is one thing to find no separation etc. wherever you look, but drawing far-fetched conclusions based on that is quite another.
Can you live with this not-knowing?

When I sit with the question, ‘can you live with this not knowing’, it feels like I’m asking myself ‘can you give up the chase?’ And I want to give it up, I’m so tired of seeking. Is that a good inquiry to keep practicing, to ask myself “can I live with this not-knowing?”

[Magdalena]

Hello Celine, good morning, 😉

Thanks for your reply – there's a couple of things here that I’d like to address, but let me do this after you come back with the results of your today’s experiment (pretending you know nothing of “awakening” and living like you’re not a “dedicated seeker”).

Happy experimenting, and have a good day. 😉😉😉

[treelight]

Hello Celine, good morning, 😉

Thanks for your reply – there's a couple of things here that I’d like to address, but let me do this after you come back with the results of your today’s experiment (pretending you know nothing of “awakening” and living like you’re not a “dedicated seeker”).

Happy experimenting, and have a good day. 😉😉😉

Hello, Magdalena, I hope you are having a nice day! :)





Here are some of the things I’ve noticed:

There are judgements on things I should and shouldn’t be feeling. If depression, exhaustion, or other “negative” feelings pop up, it’s almost feels like I need to use spiritual concepts to self soothe. Or that I need to use practices to cope with extreme boredom that stems from my day to day schedule.

I also noticed that a part of me was trying to turn your instructions into a practice itself, as if that would help me progress spiritually. Luckily, that was pretty easy to notice in myself, and I was able to keep letting that go.

I know this was not necessarily your instruction, but trying what you suggested made me realize how most of my thoughts are about the past or future. Many of my thoughts about spirituality, awakening, etc. are about the future. Like, “I need to do x, y, and z, or I won’t feel better in the future”. This is just a story, but it feels important to share.

[Magdalena]

Hello again Celina, 😉😉😉

I hope you are having a nice day! :)

I certainly am, thanks. :)


Now for some of the things you posted earlier.

I guess I can’t really know that I’m not awake now, because I don’t have very good proof one way or another.

What if “awakening” is but a human-made concept, a thought construct, a sort of metaphorical carrot that’s dangling in front of your eyes just because you’ve bought into some story that says it’s a thing?

If there is no free will (which is what I see in my experience), how can anything be labeled as good or bad? It goes back to it’s all just happening. And if there is no free will, how can anything be personal? It wouldn’t be personal, it would be just what reality is appearing as.

If you find no free will in your experience, can anyone else have free will, i.e. the ability to choose how they act?

How can it be different if it’s happening on its own?

I think the question is rather: How can it be different if neither Celina, nor anyone else, has any CONTROL over what’s happening?

When I knew nothing about awakening, I was depressed, hopeless, lost in mental illness. I had a two week glimpse six years ago and it changed everything for me. …

Look, this is important. If you were, or still are, hoping that what you imagine “awakening” to be will be a cure to some mental issues that are being experienced, this is simply unreasonable.
After all, aren’t mental issues caused by some chemical imbalance in a certain part of the body? As such, they may or may not need medication or some other treatment at various points, and there is absolutely no reason to expect that “awakening” will automatically fix them.

Isn’t it the same as when you have, for instance, asthma, underactive thyroid, or any other disorder which affects your moods – you wouldn’t expect these health issues to go away just because you “awaken”, would you? There may be changes, one way or the other, but overall they may as well happen with no “awakening” in sight. Are you with me?

Like, if I’m not seeking and continuing this search, I regress. I go back to that lost person, and not with any clearer idea of who or what I am.

Is this a fact or a story that thoughts like to spin?
How would you go about checking which one it is?

… I seem to get swept up by my mind with stories of suffering or why I need to keep seeking.

That’s OK, that’s what minds do. But you seem quite adept at knowing when mind’s playing up:

Sometimes within SECONDS! Other times, maybe a day or so. This has gotten so much better in the last year or so. I can be triggered and know in the middle of it that I’m buying into some unreal story.

This is a great result, let me tell you, even if this recognition happens later. Unless your expectation is that mind will shut up for good, there will be no thoughts, and only blissful silence 24/7?

Is that a good inquiry to keep practicing, to ask myself “can I live with this not-knowing?”

What makes you think this is about “inquiry” rather than simply living your life?
It’s more like accepting that this may never change, that the not-knowing may never go away, that no final truth may ever be revealed.
When I say “accepting”, please don’t translate it into some spiritual concept that you’re familiar with, like “letting go” or “surrender”. These are just labels – and kind of imperfect at that. They suggest that it can be done by an act of will, which it cannot. But it can certainly happen – on its own, like everything else.
In fact, it is as mundane as saying to yourself, “OK, so I will live with all this sh*t till the end of my days – and so effing what?”
Try this and see what happens. No need to be “spiritual” about it.


As for your experiment:

There are judgements on things I should and shouldn’t be feeling.

Whose voice is it that you hear pronouncing those judgements? A parent’s? A partner’s? A teacher’s? Someone else’s?

If depression, exhaustion, or other “negative” feelings pop up, it’s almost feels like I need to use spiritual concepts to self soothe. Or that I need to use practices to cope with extreme boredom that stems from my day to day schedule.

What if this “negative” stuff serves some purpose? (just a possibility)
What if it’s trying to break this vicious circle of endless seeking?
Would you run after “spiritual” distractions, knowing or even suspecting that this might be the case?

I also noticed that a part of me was trying to turn your instructions into a practice itself, as if that would help me progress spiritually. …

What we are talking about has nothing to do with “spirituality” of any kind, or “progress” for that matter. I’m not asking you to adopt any new beliefs or practices of any kind. I’m only asking you to investigate some dusty corners of your experience where presumably you didn’t quite look before. So, no – no “spiritual progress” on offer here.
What comes up when you read this?

This is just a story, but it feels important to share.

So how do you respond when thoughts arrive and throw their b/s at you?

[treelight]

What if “awakening” is but a human-made concept, a thought construct, a sort of metaphorical carrot that’s dangling in front of your eyes just because you’ve bought into some story that says it’s a thing?

Yikes. LOL. That’s what comes to mind when you ask that.

I have thought about this before and it seems correct to me. Descriptions of awakening aren’t awakening, I know this. It’s almost like the goal flipped on its head when I realized it. Like, before the goal was to get this mystical, magical thing called awakening, the new goal is to see it’s a bullshit, just another story of the mind. There are still hidden goals and agendas that come with this line of thinking, and I try my best to see when my expectations are way off base

Typing this all out, a question pops up; what if ALL expectations are way off base?

If you find no free will in your experience, can anyone else have free will, i.e. the ability to choose how they act?

Nope. Absolutely not. It FEELS or SEEMS like people can choose how they behave, but I see no evidence of that at all in reality.

I think the question is rather: How can it be different if neither Celina, nor anyone else, has any CONTROL over what’s happening?

It can’t be different. You’re right. Without control, which clearly doesn’t exist in reality, it’s all happening and there is no one to control it.

Look, this is important. If you were, or still are, hoping that what you imagine “awakening” to be will be a cure to some mental issues that are being experienced, this is simply unreasonable.
After all, aren’t mental issues caused by some chemical imbalance in a certain part of the body? As such, they may or may not need medication or some other treatment at various points, and there is absolutely no reason to expect that “awakening” will automatically fix them.

Isn’t it the same as when you have, for instance, asthma, underactive thyroid, or any other disorder which affects your moods – you wouldn’t expect these health issues to go away just because you “awaken”, would you? There may be changes, one way or the other, but overall they may as well happen with no “awakening” in sight. Are you with me?

I am absolutely with you. I don’t think I will become magically fixed or always happy because of awakening. That is not my expectation. My expectation is that life will feel more free (for no one) and that I won’t judge myself for what appears. Does that sound in line with this process?

Is this a fact or a story that thoughts like to spin?
How would you go about checking which one it is?

It’s a story. The way to check is to go to my lived experience, the present reality, and check for proof. There is no proof of my fears outside of the mental chatter I experience. What my mind says is happening, or is going to happen, is not true or real.

Unless your expectation is that mind will shut up for good, there will be no thoughts, and only blissful silence 24/7?

No, I don’t think I expect that, but I’m glad that you’re asking! I would say I expect to relate to the mental chatter in a different way… It won’t be able to hook me in any longer. I will KNOW for sure it’s not true, just a concept, just an illusion.

What makes you think this is about “inquiry” rather than simply living your life?
It’s more like accepting that this may never change, that the not-knowing may never go away, that no final truth may ever be revealed.

This question makes my mind spin a little bit, I can’t lie.

I clearly have a strong belief that this process is about inquiry. I guess I’ve had lots of glimpses from practicing inquiry, and it feels like what we’re doing is similar to inquiry, because we’re looking into reality with a goal of seeing it clearly. Does that make sense?

Whose voice is it that you hear pronouncing those judgements? A parent’s? A partner’s? A teacher’s? Someone else’s?

Whoever’s voice it started out as, I’m not sure, but I have now internalized it, because it feels like ME judging ME. Maybe parental figures, maybe my partner… I’ve been told my whole life that I’m too sensitive. My emotions overwhelm myself and others, it seems.

What if this “negative” stuff serves some purpose? (just a possibility)
What if it’s trying to break this vicious circle of endless seeking?
Would you run after “spiritual” distractions, knowing or even suspecting that this might be the case?

I do think the suffering serves a purpose. Yes, there’s a very real chance it’s trying to wake me up to how painful seeking is. I respect it for that. I know the body is trying to keep me safe. I definitely don’t want to run after spiritual distractions. Concepts, practices, etc. always run out of steam for me. They are not fulfilling and I know they won’t lead me to truth.

What we are talking about has nothing to do with “spirituality” of any kind, or “progress” for that matter. I’m not asking you to adopt any new beliefs or practices of any kind. I’m only asking you to investigate some dusty corners of your experience where presumably you didn’t quite look before. So, no – no “spiritual progress” on offer here.
What comes up when you read this?

Sadness, I think, mostly stemming from how long I’ve chased after things that didn’t end up being the salvation I wanted them to be. Also a bit of resonance, like, “yes, that’s right”. I know that awakening isn’t for a self and that it won’t be anything Celina gets.

So how do you respond when thoughts arrive and throw their b/s at you?

I ask myself if they are true. Sometimes that pokes holes into the stories and the suffering falls away. Other times, it’s like “I know what my brain is telling me isn’t true, so now what can I do about it? How do I fix this? How do I stop buying into thought?” Almost like my mind makes identification a problem, and then comes up with a bunch of nonsense as to how I need to ‘fix’ my ignorance. That’s just more mind stuff, but it’s like I don’t see through “spiritual” mind stuff as easily.

[treelight]

I am absolutely with you. I don’t think I will become magically fixed or always happy because of awakening. That is not my expectation. My expectation is that life will feel more free (for no one) and that I won’t judge myself for what appears. Does that sound in line with this process?

Sorry to quote myself, haha, but I want to change my answer on this a little bit. I’ve realized it doesn’t ring true. My expectations are that life will continue the same way it always has, but I’ll see it’s happening for no one, and that understanding won’t waver. And to be completely transparent and honest with you, I also expect my experience of time to change, because everyone says it does. I’ve bought into that story. Want to be as honest as possible.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Celina,

I appreciate your honest replies.
Sit back and prepare to read a long post. 😉

Like, before the goal was to get this mystical, magical thing called awakening, the new goal is to see it’s a bullshit, just another story of the mind. There are still hidden goals and agendas that come with this line of thinking, and I try my best to see when my expectations are way off base

Tell me more about those “hidden goals and agendas that come with this line of thinking ” etc.

Typing this all out, a question pops up; what if ALL expectations are way off base?

Hahaha – that’s a good one. 😉

My expectation is that life will feel more free (for no one) and that I won’t judge myself for what appears. Does that sound in line with this process?

Why are you asking me? Find out for yourself. 😉

I expect to relate to the mental chatter in a different way… It won’t be able to hook me in any longer. I will KNOW for sure it’s not true, just a concept, just an illusion.

Let me say that again: you’re doing great when it comes to this. And, no, minds don’t seem to permanently lose their ability to hook, clever a*sholes. LOL Which is kind of great because you’re in for a lifetime of entertainment, free of charge. LOL LOL LOL

it feels like what we’re doing is similar to inquiry, because we’re looking into reality with a goal of seeing it clearly. Does that make sense?

I don’t know. Do we absolutely have to put labels on this conversation?
I don’t see it as goal-oriented, although it sure may appear like this.
It’s like – you give me some b/s, and I ask you, “How do you know that?” etc., and the procedure repeats. Nothing more to it. If there is some aha moment as we talk – fine, if not – well, that’s life.
But, more importantly, inquiry is the seeker’s thing. In a worst case scenario, you can inquire till the cows come home, and it would not translate into any outcomes in daily life. I’m not a fan of inquiry myself, but if that’s what makes you tick – fine with me.

Whoever’s voice it started out as, I’m not sure, but I have now internalized it, because it feels like ME judging ME. Maybe parental figures, maybe my partner… I’ve been told my whole life that I’m too sensitive. My emotions overwhelm myself and others, it seems.

That’s weird. My impression of you, as we talk, is you’re a very rational creature. But of course I may be wrong.
That said, why TF do you take other people’s OPINIONS as FACTS?
Why do you so readily accept that OTHERS KNOW BETTER?
Any reasons??

I do think the suffering serves a purpose.

That’s not exactly what I meant – like save the world or something.
But (and of course that’s my story because of my experience) it may help exhaust us to the point when we’re so desperate and disarmed that something finally gets a chance to sink in. That’s all.

I know the body is trying to keep me safe.

You CANNOT KNOW this – but you’ve read it or heard it said so many times that you THINK you KNOW.

I definitely don’t want to run after spiritual distractions. Concepts, practices, etc. always run out of steam for me. They are not fulfilling and I know they won’t lead me to truth.

So don’t run after them. Instead, allow yourself to become exhausted when you get the chance.

Sadness, I think, mostly stemming from how long I’ve chased after things that didn’t end up being the salvation I wanted them to be. Also a bit of resonance, like, “yes, that’s right”.

Sadness is natural when seeing our cherished beliefs fall apart. Nothing wrong with it.
“Resonance”, on the other hand, is no proof of anything. It’s basically saying that this makes sense. Nothing wrong with that, either.

I know that awakening isn’t for a self and that it won’t be anything Celina gets.

You CANNOT KNOW that. See above.

So how do you respond when thoughts arrive and throw their b/s at you?

I ask myself if they are true. ... Other times, it’s like “I know what my brain is telling me isn’t true, so now what can I do about it? How do I fix this? How do I stop buying into thought?”

OMG, you do love “inquiry” sooooo much, do you? 🤣 🤣 🤣
No need to be so deadly serious about this stuff though. 🤣
I get it that you’ve got those questions from books or self-growth talks etc.
But what if YOU could come up with methods that are funnier, more entertaining and – potentially – just as (or even more) effective?
Look, people who offer these questions as a technique for seekers did not necessarily read about them in books etc. They most likely have been experimenting with this stuff, and that’s what they’ve come up with.
Which means YOU CAN do things your way too – just be creative – investigate – have fun – try and outsmart thoughts. Find your own ways to do that.
You know what I do (actually been doing this for decades now – since I became aware of mind chatter as a child)? I don’t just sit there and ask if it’s true because the mind then gets into spinning more stories to prove that it’s true, and so on. Instead, I sometimes blow it a big kiss 😘 (mentally or otherwise) – and it shuts up when it gets it that its stories have been seen through.
At other times, when I’m p*ssed, I’d hurl a string of invectives at it (mentally most often LOL) – this has a potential to shock it into silence.
At other times, I laugh at its b/s.
Or I simply let it keep talking – just like when you’re being insulted by a drunk at a bus stop, right? – you move away, and who cares.
If I really want inquiry, the question that works best for me is “So what?” Of course it’s not enough to ask it just once, but with every more fantastic piece of b/s that comes up, I ask another “So what?”, as long as it takes – till the topic is exhausted. This is in fact pretty heavy artillery, although it may not sound like it. 😉
I’m not suggesting you do the above “as a practice” LOL, but why not try them out, see if they work for you, and invent your own ways?
You will need ones that work because, like I said, it’s a lifetime’s worth of free entertainment, so it seems kind of practical to have fun ways to respond with. 😉😉😉

My expectations are that life will continue the same way it always has…

Doesn’t it RIGHT NOW?

…but I’ll see it’s happening for no one…

That’s just a phrase you picked up from radical non-dualists. LOL Not saying it’s inaccurate or anything, but again you’re looking to emulate other people’s experience based on how they express themselves. It is not at all necessary. Prepare to be surprised. 😉

…and that understanding won’t waver.

Some people never waver in their seeing, and others do a lot. You have no way of knowing how it will be for you, and trying to CONTROL the outcome with your expectations is irrelevant.
Meaning you can drop any and all expectations RIGHT NOW just as well. They are basically useless.

I also expect my experience of time to change, because everyone says it does. I’ve bought into that story.

So you have LOL.
Why not allow things to unfold spontaneously instead? You still trying to be in CONTROL?

[treelight]

Hi, Magdalena. What a blessing you are to me. This statement is a story (language makes it hard), so keep that in mind, but I feel like I can take a big, deep breath today. I am laughing a bit too. I’m realizing that I’ve been believing a story that says, “some thoughts you’ve seen through, others you have not”. LOL. IT IS ALL THOUGHT/STORY. I don’t have to believe any of it. Wow.

Tell me more about those “hidden goals and agendas that come with this line of thinking ” etc.

Sure, I’ll try. Thoughts of what ‘no self’ is going to be like, expectations that life might feel easier and more free. The expectation that time won’t feel the same. I will say, though, it’s pretty easy for me to say today, in this moment, those are a bunch of illusions haha. They’re just thoughts, they have nothing to do with this process, if you even want to call it that.

I don’t know. Do we absolutely have to put labels on this conversation?

Nope, we definitely don’t. :) It feels better when we don’t, actually.

That’s weird. My impression of you, as we talk, is you’re a very rational creature. But of course I may be wrong.
That said, why TF do you take other people’s OPINIONS as FACTS?
Why do you so readily accept that OTHERS KNOW BETTER?
Any reasons??

Thanks for saying that. I know you’re not trying to flatter me, but thank you anyways haha.

I don’t know. Thoughts tell me that others know better and I believe those thoughts, I guess. I doubt myself quite a bit, which makes it easier to trust others…

This is really making me question a lot. People have been saying that I’m sensitive for my whole life, so I just assumed they were correct. Maybe I feel things a normal amount and others are numbing themselves. Who’s to say?

You CANNOT KNOW this – but you’ve read it or heard it said so many times that you THINK you KNOW.

Understood. You’re right, I can’t know that. I’m not sure I can know much of anything, because that would be me just agreeing to some illusory thought.

OMG, you do love “inquiry” sooooo much, do you? 🤣 🤣 🤣
No need to be so deadly serious about this stuff though. 🤣
I get it that you’ve got those questions from books or self-growth talks etc.
But what if YOU could come up with methods that are funnier, more entertaining and – potentially – just as (or even more) effective?

LOL. 😂 I mean, yeah, I guess I do/did love it, but this conversation is changing some things for me. What if the thing I thought was going to bring me to freedom was just busy keeping me lost?

Wow wow wow.

I am going to be spending the day doing as you’ve suggested. Not as a practice, but as something to try out. It’s kind of happening on its own since I woke up today, though. It’s fun. Thought appears, I kind of smirk about how long I’ve believed it all these years, and then it falls away on its own because it’s not being believed in. I feel lighter and more amused than normal

Doesn’t it RIGHT NOW?

Yeah, it definitely does. Life is doing what life does, no pause.

That’s just a phrase you picked up from radical non-dualists. LOL Not saying it’s inaccurate or anything, but again you’re looking to emulate other people’s experience based on how they express themselves.

You’re correct. Thank you for pointing this out to me. All of these spiritual things that I “know”, I can’t possibly know. It’s just mind babble.

Some people never waver in their seeing, and others do a lot. You have no way of knowing how it will be for you, and trying to CONTROL the outcome with your expectations is irrelevant.
Meaning you can drop any and all expectations RIGHT NOW just as well. They are basically useless.

This is helpful. It’s not in my control if seeing falls away or stays consistent. I am dropping those expectations. To answer - How do I drop them? By seeing that they were always just the mind trying to get a grip on what’s happening. Nothing more.

So you have LOL.
Why not allow things to unfold spontaneously instead? You still trying to be in CONTROL?

Yeah. I HAVE to let things unfold spontaneously, because /anything else/ would be deluding myself. There is no control. In fact, the only control I can find is the mind’s grasping, when it’s pretending like it has control. Thats not real control, that’s just more thought.

When thought/stories are seen through, ALL OF THEM, this probably gets to be very simple. That’s how it seems to me right now.

[Magdalena]

Hey Celine,
Love your post today. 😉

IT IS ALL THOUGHT/STORY. I don’t have to believe any of it. Wow.

LOL Yes. LOL

They’re just thoughts, they have nothing to do with this process, if you even want to call it that.

LOL

Thoughts tell me that others know better and I believe those thoughts, I guess. I doubt myself quite a bit, which makes it easier to trust others…

Why not trust yourself before trusting anyone else? Trust LIFE?

It’s fun. Thought appears, I kind of smirk about how long I’ve believed it all these years, and then it falls away on its own because it’s not being believed in. I feel lighter and more amused than normal.

Good. 😉😉😉

I am dropping those expectations. To answer - How do I drop them? By seeing that they were always just the mind trying to get a grip on what’s happening. Nothing more.

Add a chuckle. 😉

I HAVE to let things unfold spontaneously, because /anything else/ would be deluding myself. There is no control.

Celina, there you go again LOL LOL LOL Who has to let things unfold? Who needs to CONTROL this? LOL

When thought/stories are seen through, ALL OF THEM, this probably gets to be very simple. That’s how it seems to me right now.

🙂🙂🙂

Tell me how your experimenting went today. Enjoy - and chuckle. 🙂🙃🙂

[treelight]

Why not trust yourself before trusting anyone else? Trust LIFE?

There is a fear here that trusting life may mean losing things or people I love. Is that real? No, it’s just mind chatter. It comes with very heavy feelings in the body. But I see pretty clearly that things can and will be lost at anytime ALREADY, so it’s out of my control. There is no control. Trusting life would certainly feel better (maybe that’s just a story). Is there a choice to trust life here? The person can’t really trust life, because “the person” is already life. “The person” is a bunch of mind constructs, appearing as life.

And as I see and reread everything that was just typed out, there is the desire to drop every single bit of it. I’m tired of letting my feelings and thoughts run the show. It’s just a bunch of noise, y’know? It’s like I can see the mind carrying on, I can see it’s gibberish, and I can see that I’m keeping myself trapped.

Emotions make it harder for me to recognize the stories of the mind.

Celina, there you go again LOL LOL LOL Who has to let things unfold? Who needs to CONTROL this? LOL

It’s not something I have to do, you’re right. It happens on its own. Acceptance and resistance happen on their own, I’m not responsible for either whenever they appear.

Tell me how your experimenting went today. Enjoy - and chuckle. 🙂🙃🙂

Here are some things that have come to me while viewing every thought/story as illusory:

It’s been strange — I can be feeling very upset because I’m believing a certain story, and then I’ll see what’s happening and amusement will appear so quickly, like it’s popping the suffering out of the moment. I’m not used to going from feeling depressed to feeling clear/amused so quickly like that.

It is much harder for me to keep my amusement about this process when I am sad or having thoughts about wanting things to be different in “the future”. The good news is that it’s not impossible or anything. I am still seeing those thoughts as nothing more than story, I’m just sharing that the lightness to the process goes away when I’m feeling emotionally heavy, so to speak. It’s like, I can still see that a story is going on, but amusement isn’t going on because my body is responding to it like it’s real.

Even typing all of that out, I see how much story is there. It’s like an unfolding thing, where I am seeing just how far the stories truly reach.

Things continue the way they always have. I experience anxiety about work when I’m not there, I distract myself with mindless phone games when I’m bored, etc etc. But I’m not really judging those things and I’m not buying into any kind of narration that the mind is supplying about them. For example, there will be anxiety in my body and my mind will supply a story: “you’re going to get in trouble at work, no one likes you, etc”. I immediately see the stories present — that something called ‘work’ exists, that time is linear and things can happen ‘later’, that I’m a person separate from other people, that something going ‘wrong’ can hurt a ‘me’. I see all of that. So in a way you can say that anxiety about work still appears, but it’s seen to be deeply false for a bajillion reasons.

I haven’t felt the desire to practice “silence” or “meditation” today. Seeing through thought, which is happening on its own, has made it obvious that any suggestions from the mind about what I should do to “get more awake” would be nothing more than a story. It’s just a distraction.


Thank you for your assistance. 💟

[Magdalena]

Hello, Celina,

I see pretty clearly that things can and will be lost at anytime ALREADY, so it’s out of my control. There is no control.

Exactly. Nothing lasts for ever, and neither do the relationships and things that we enjoy. It is helpful to remind oneself about this from time to time (just don’t turn it into a practice, please 😉).

Is there a choice to trust life here? The person can’t really trust life, because “the person” is already life. “The person” is a bunch of mind constructs, appearing as life.

True, and there is no choice, certainly.

Emotions make it harder for me to recognize the stories of the mind.

Well, the way I see it, emotions, particularly when strong, make you alert to a story that’s running. When there’s no story, what’s there to get emotional about?

It’s not something I have to do, you’re right. It happens on its own. Acceptance and resistance happen on their own, I’m not responsible for either whenever they appear.

Yes.

It’s been strange — I can be feeling very upset because I’m believing a certain story, and then I’ll see what’s happening and amusement will appear so quickly, like it’s popping the suffering out of the moment. I’m not used to going from feeling depressed to feeling clear/amused so quickly like that.

Yes.

It’s like, I can still see that a story is going on, but amusement isn’t going on because my body is responding to it like it’s real.

Yes, spot on, this is what happens when we buy into a story.
The body responds, and more story follows, then more bodily response... - and before you know it, you've got a nice vicious circle running.

It’s like an unfolding thing, where I am seeing just how far the stories truly reach.

Good.

For example, there will be anxiety in my body and my mind will supply a story…

Have you noticed that “anxiety” is also a story, i.e. a mental label that we are so used to applying to certain bodily sensations, such as nausea, contracted stomach, faster heartbeat, sweating hands, and the like?

I haven’t felt the desire to practice “silence” or “meditation” today. Seeing through thought, which is happening on its own, has made it obvious that any suggestions from the mind about what I should do to “get more awake” would be nothing more than a story. It’s just a distraction.

Oh totally. Couldn’t agree more. Unless there's a spontaneous desire to do something or other, of course. No reason to push either way.

Thank you for your assistance. 💟

You’re very welcome, and thank YOU.