consistent authentic/true mode of being

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:50 pm

Hey Steve, here are my answers:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
No, I wouldn’t say one is truer than the other, but the 10min where I wrote down sentences without „I“ felt clearer und more direct.
2. What is here without labels?
I don’t know if I understand the question correctly, but the direct experience is here without labels.
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
They effect the experience like expectations does. Labels feel like an Moderator of the direct experience.
4. What differences/changes in the body did you notice?
The first 10min felt normal like when I‘m not mindful.
The second 10min felt like I‘m in meditation or in a mindful state. My body felt more lighter, more direct, quieter and more true. So I have to correct my first answer I just notice! The first 10min felt truer! That was an interesting experience rn, I wanted to write down that it felt truer and than I remembered that I sad something else in your first question! So I guess the first answerwas just unintended intellectual Zen knowledge!

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:49 pm

Hi Leto,
The first 10min felt truer! That was an interesting experience rn, I wanted to write down that it felt truer and than I remembered that I sad something else in your first question!
The reality is that with or without the ‘I” both are still thought stories that only serve to obscure raw experience and prevent real looking.

Let’s a look at this from a different angle. The Direct experience of thought is very important in seeing through the self illusion. Take your time and really work through the exercise below, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write it as it comes and in the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes.

Relax and sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What is a thought made off?

Can you find a thinker of thoughts?

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:30 am

Hi Leto,
I will no longer love when I cuddle friends or that I will no longer be able to put myself in other people's shoes.
As we progress you will see that the pure experience of love, empathy and compassion need no labels or additional thought stories to enhance them and can usually only serve to diminish them.

While you complete the last exercise Leto, let us look more closely at deepening our experience of DE. This will also give you an insight into the truth of the statement above.

This can be a very powerful exercise, complete it when life allows the opportunity to do so:

While walking in nature, a park or even just looking at a garden and using only the ‘seeing/looking/visual’ faculty:

- Relax and allow your attention to just rest and take a break
- Allow your field of vision to gently open a little more, NOT focusing on anything in particular
- Allow everything you see to come into you like the sunlight that engulfs a dark room when the curtains are drawn
- Allow it ALL to fill you, to be you without any trace of resistance or mind labelling

If you feel any type of resistance leave it, relax and come back to it.

Take your time with this exercise, enjoy it, have fun with it and please report back your experience
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:16 pm

Hey Steve,

here are my answers:
Where are thoughts coming from and going to?
I don’t know, they are just forming themself and then another thought is forming. Felt one thought arises, has a climax and than going down and a next thought arises. Felt like thy coming from nowhere.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No, they just come and go like flames in a fire.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Thought question, my first Impuls was: yes sure! But if I look closer I would say: no. Every act to control a thought is just a thought as well! So either it’s random or I have a stimulus outside what provoked specific thoughts.
Can you predict your next thought?
No, if I try, it’s just a thought as well.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?
No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No
What is a thought made off?
I don’t know. Felt like energy or „ Directed consciousness“ so like my consciousness if focused on one specific point.
Can you find a thinker of thoughts?
No, that is just another thought but there is perception and the perception feels like „someone“. But sometimes even my perception felt like the same „substance“ a thought has.
I think I am confused. What is my perception. It really feels like „I am“.
What can a thought do?
I‘m not sure, a thought can provoke emotions or that I do something like going to the supermarket bc I thought „I should by grocery“
Can a thought think?
No, but sometimes thoughts refer to another thought and that feels like a meta thought but if I look closer it’s just a normal thought.

Thank you for your guidance.
Best,
Leto

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:28 am

Hi Leto,

This is excellent, we are moving along nicely now.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Thought question, my first Impuls was: yes sure! But if I look closer I would say: no. Every act to control a thought is just a thought as well! So either it’s random or I have a stimulus outside what provoked specific thoughts.
Excellent Leto. You can see clearly that there is no real control over our thoughts. The idea that we have control is just another content filled thought,

What is a thought made off?

I don’t know. Felt like energy or „ Directed consciousness“ so like my consciousness if focused on one specific point
Look to see what is behind ‘Directed consciousness’ what is there, can you find it’s focusing ability? When I say look, I always mean in DE.
What can a thought do?
I‘m not sure, a thought can provoke emotions or that I do something like going to the supermarket bc I thought „I should by grocery“

Does a thought not just lead to another thought even though you labeled them emotions? Was that thought needed for you to know that you needed groceries or was the last time you opened the fridge and saw in DE that it was empty enough?

Can you find a thinker of thoughts?
No, that is just another thought but there is perception and the perception feels like „someone“. But sometimes even my perception felt like the same „substance“ a thought has.
I think I am confused. What is my perception. It really feels like „I am
Take some time over this: Sit down, relax and take a long, close look at this “Perception”. Tell me what you can find there. What’s behind this thing that you have labelled your “Perception.” Please describe it in more detail. What can you see that it contains? Can you find that ‘Someone’? If you find that ‘someone’ what do they look like?
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:07 pm

Hey Steve,
Look to see what is behind ‘Directed consciousness’ what is there, can you find it’s focusing ability? When I say look, I always mean in DE.
No I can’t, the thought is just where my focus is on. There is nothing behind.
Does a thought not just lead to another thought even though you labeled them emotions? Was that thought needed for you to know that you needed groceries or was the last time you opened the fridge and saw in DE that it was empty enough?
Yes you are right! But what is with action not provoked by DE but actually by thoughts e.g. “I wanna watch Netflix”? In this case the thought is doing something. It brings me to watch Netflix.
Take some time over this: Sit down, relax and take a long, close look at this “Perception”. Tell me what you can find there. What’s behind this thing that you have labelled your “Perception.” Please describe it in more detail. What can you see that it contains? Can you find that ‘Someone’? If you find that ‘someone’ what do they look like?
There is nothing behind it. There was only perception, things just happened. It almost seems to me that only a thought mixed with perception leads me to think (literally) that my perception is my "I". But I find it very difficult to maintain this realization.

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:04 am

Look to see what is behind ‘Directed consciousness’ what is there, can you find it’s focusing ability? When I say look, I always mean in DE.
No I can’t, the thought is just where my focus is on. There is nothing behind.
Can you clarify this Leto? Are you saying that you found the thought to focus on in direct experience?

Was that thought needed for you to know that you needed groceries or was the last time you opened the fridge and saw in DE that it was empty enough?

Yes you are right! But what is with action not provoked by DE but actually by thoughts e.g. “I wanna watch Netflix”? In this case the thought is doing something. It brings me to watch Netflix
Was a thought in your head labelled “I wanna watch Netflix” absolutely needed before you are able to watch Netflix?

Does Direct Experience prevent you from taking action?


Take some time over this: Sit down, relax and take a long, close look at this “Perception”. Tell me what you can find there. What’s behind this thing that you have labelled your “Perception.” Please describe it in more detail. What can you see that it contains? Can you find that ‘Someone’? If you find that ‘someone’ what do they look like?

There is nothing behind it. There was only perception, things just happened. It almost seems to me that only a thought mixed with perception leads me to think (literally) that my perception is my "I". But I find it very difficult to maintain this realization.
Can you define “think (literally)” in the sentence above please?

If your perception is your “I” where is this perceiver, this seer? Look closely, where can it be found?


As we move through the guiding there will always be opportunities to just LOOK and notice what is really there. There is no right or wrong answer, the clarity comes from Looking with DE. If it seems repetitive, that's because it can be. You may notice that each time we repeat an exercise or a pointing, you get clearer and deeper
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:00 pm

Hey Steve,
Can you clarify this Leto? Are you saying that you found the thought to focus on in direct experience?
I looked, there is no directed cinsciousness. Whenever I‘m using DE to find something, I never find something. Its a tough reality check I have to admid. I don‘t know what a thought is. I just don‘t know. I don‘t know if I can answer your questions bc I just don‘t know. This realization makes me a bit emotional rn. I feel a bit lost and frustrated bc I don‘t know and whatever questions follows I will not find something and I will not know. A thought is just a thought.
Was a thought in your head labelled “I wanna watch Netflix” absolutely needed before you are able to watch Netflix?
Sometimes yes, sometimes I just have the desire to watch netflix and do so. But if I take a closer look, a thought does not necessarily lead to an action. So a thought doesn't do anything on its own. But it is certainly one of many components that lead to an action, isn't it?
Does Direct Experience prevent you from taking action?
Not at all, it can lead to take action like looking outside my windows to see a tree and decide to take a walk. But is the decision not a thougt? I would say yes! So in this case it needed the tought to take the walk. It needed the DE and the tought.
Can you define “think (literally)” in the sentence above please?
I mean that only when I think about my perception it feels like the perception is „me“ or its „my“ percetpion. If I‘m not thinking about perception, its just perception bound to noone.
If your perception is your “I” where is this perceiver, this seer? Look closely, where can it be found?
It only canbe found in a thought.

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:48 am

Hi Leto, this is fantastic, you are getting closer and closer to the truth. Can you see what’s happening? You are beginning to QUESTION everything you had previously accepted. There is a lot to go through in your last answers; let us let it just settle in for a day and come back to it.

In the mean time do the following exercise:

While walking in nature, a park or even just looking out at a garden and using only the ‘seeing/looking/visual’ faculty:

- Find a quiet place, take a deep breath, relax and allow your attention to just rest and take a break
- Allow your field of vision to gently open a little more, NOT focusing on anything in particular
- Allow everything you see to come into you like the sunlight that engulfs a dark room when the curtains are drawn
- Allow it ALL to fill you, to be you without any trace of resistance or mind labelling
- Allow the ‘’being’’ of everything in every cell of your body and consciousness

(Thoughts can bubble up but that is perfectly ok and natural, just allow them, love them and even thank them for being there…they’re only thoughts after all)

If you feel any type of resistance take a short break, relax and come back to it.


Take your time with this exercise, enjoy it, have fun with it and please report back your experience
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Mon Apr 22, 2024 9:03 pm

Hey Steve,

thank you for saying this, that felt very good.

Unfortunately my day was so full today and my head so full of thoughts about work (I'm quitting one of my two jobs that I'm so worried about so soon its not a problem anymore) that I didn't get around to doing the exercise. But I tried the field of vision thing again and again and found it very interesting not to have a focus but to have a wide view and also to perceive otherwise unnoticed things and to give them no less importance than what I see directly in front of me.

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:54 am

Hi Leto, let’s take a look back at some of your answers:

I looked, there is no directed consciousness. Whenever I‘m using DE to find something, I never find something.

What is it that is looking for something? Is there a separate autonomous awareness prior to the senses?


I don‘t know what a thought is
Is the knowing of a thought just another thought? Is there a knower of thoughts? If there is a knower of thoughts can you describe it?

This realization makes me a bit emotional rn. I feel a bit lost and frustrated
This is natural Leto and valuable part of this process, stay with me my friend we are so close now. While ‘being immersed’ in DE do these feelings of loss and frustration persist?


But if I take a closer look, a thought does not necessarily lead to an action.
Exactly Leto

But it is certainly one of many components that lead to an action, isn't it?
When a top level athlete is ‘in the zone’ or in ‘flow’ and performing fast, complex activities are they thinking about their every move? Would thought go to enhance effective action here or would it slow it down and hamper it?


But is the decision not a thougt? I would say yes! So in this case it needed the tought to take the walk. It needed the DE and the tought.
When the starter gun goes off at the beginning of a sprint race does this same athlete need a thought to start the action of running? Does the athlete have time to make a decision to run?

Can you define “think (literally)” in the sentence above please?
I mean that only when I think about my perception it feels like the perception is „me“ or its „my“ percetpion. If I‘m not thinking about perception, its just perception bound to noone

Question everything you know about perception. When you think about perception what other thoughts come up? Is perception something you own or something you do and if so is there a doer of perception. Please compare your perception to what we have defined as Direct Experience.

A thought is just a thought
Yes, yes, yes Leto

As we continue on this road together Leto it will help you a lot to cultivate the habit of questioning everything and looking in DE. As you answer questions and write out your responses really look at your answers and ask, ‘can that be true?’ It may seem sometimes that as you write your answers may start to ramble on and seem silly but this is ok, just keep going. Questions and answers create movement and space for insight to enter. The most valuable answers you get sometimes might not make sense at first.
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:43 pm

Hey Steve,
What is it that is looking for something? Is there a separate autonomous awareness prior to the senses?
At first glance, it really feels like that and I have to admit that I find it very difficult to look behind it and recognize it: There are no hirachy and instances. All thoughts are the same, whether they refer to or observe another thought or whether they simply appear without reference. So this looking is also a thought, I would say. But I‘m really not sure on this.
Is the knowing of a thought just another thought? Is there a knower of thoughts? If there is a knower of thoughts can you describe it?
OMG YES! Even the knowing is just a thought. Haha than the question what a thought is is obsolet. It's a circular question!
This is natural Leto and valuable part of this process, stay with me my friend we are so close now. While ‘being immersed’ in DE do these feelings of loss and frustration persist?
No, in DE it doesn‘t matter. In DE there is no knowing or the knowing is just a thought and in DE I don‘t focus on thoughts (but there are some, I hope thats ok).
When a top level athlete is ‘in the zone’ or in ‘flow’ and performing fast, complex activities are they thinking about their every move? Would thought go to enhance effective action here or would it slow it down and hamper it?
It would slow down and hamper. But the rarest actions result from such a flow. Is that the goal, to be in a permanent flow without thoughts being part of the action? That scares me a bit because thinking can sometimes be fun and deciding on something mentally can also be nice. I think we're getting to the fear I described at the very beginning, which moved me to an 8 on the scale. Maybe at this point I have the chance to move beyond the 8 to a 10. I feel that this dialog about flow has a lot of potential for both directions on the scale.
When the starter gun goes off at the beginning of a sprint race does this same athlete need a thought to start the action of running? Does the athlete have time to make a decision to run?
Here I would refer you to my answer to the flow question. Here, too, I feel the fear of becoming a thoughtless thing that only does and has neither joy nor aversion to it. Doesn't your friend who likes suhsi sometimes have fun thinking about how nice suhi would be now and then happily deciding in favor of it?

I realize how deep this fear runs. But I am ready to overcome it to get to the truth.

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:49 pm

Hi Leto, it takes desire, courage and perseverance in the face of the unknown to carry on, so well done!

There was some really great looking in your answers, thank you. I want to let them sit for a little while Leto and return later to them if you are ok with that. I think at this point it might be helpful for us, just briefly, to be completely clear about the different ways we talk about thought. This will enable us to share a common frame of reference regarding this topic.

What really is the difference between ‘content filled thought’ and thought that arises in our Direct Experience. If you think about it our entire experience of life is made up of thought. Let’s take the faculty of ‘seeing’ as an example. Light passes through our eyes via the cornea into the retina where it is converted into signals that cause neurons to fire and communicate with each other. This applies to all of our sensory input. This is raw thought without content. Can you see how raw thought would flow freely as it appears and disappears from our consciousness in Direct Experience?

From an early age, as we began to learn language, our parents/teachers/role models would literally point at objects, events and people, label them with a verbal term and designate them as ‘good’, ‘bad’ or a variation of both. As our language skills evolved we developed an internal mental dialogue that continued this labelling process.

This labelling process has its uses and will not disappear Leto. You may be looking in Direct Experience and then a thought about Netflix could pop into your head….that’s perfectly ok. You will still enjoy living your life and thinking your thoughts. I only want you to see the difference between thought that allows you to experience what is real and label based thought that creates stories that are only pointers to reality. We are concerned here with a particular story that our label based thinking has created called ‘I’.

I like stories, I really do. I am an avid reader. Stories make me laugh, cry, gasp and everything in between but when I close the book I still know that they are just stories that have no basis in reality. Please let me know if you have any questions about this. If you do not have questions Leto please move onto the exercise below:


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve

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Leto
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Leto » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:03 pm

Hey Steve, thank you for your text, I really needed this and it was really helpful. I‘ll answer the questions tomorrow bc I have to sleep now.

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Steve101
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Re: consistent authentic/true mode of being

Postby Steve101 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:10 pm

Hi Leto, no problem at all. Thank you for letting me know. Sleep well my friend.
Meditation is something we are and not something we do.

When the answer finally dawns it will not be in any form of words, it will be in the form of simply LOOK and KNOW.


With loving kindness
Steve


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