Joy of Experiencing

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:37 pm

The stillness is very apparent though and when sitting in it and allowing it to deepen and be the focus the awareness of the discomfort goes in the background or is even hard to locate.

This ordinary intimacy is stillness, being aware. There is no you to sit in it, this intimacy is it. Is there you as an authority allowing things to deepen ? Is there a you in any shape or form?
Not sure how to use words to describe when not being active and the stillness becomes more apparent, like now when sitting here typing about it. I was wanting to describe how powerfully present the stillness is as soon as I stop. It's captivating and there is just a wanting to sit and stare into it. I appreciate this redirect again of this being ordinary intimacy, stillness, being aware, because there is still the feeling of being absorbed by it or a merging into it like a warm and soothing bath. One teacher I followed for a while would say to just go sit and marinate in it. Yet your redirect brings the seeing so much deeper when being aware that there is no me to sit in it, or allow it to deepen. More falling and tears are coming up as that it seen and more disappearing is happening, another layer being seen thru to explore and another sneaky place for the separate self to be revealed.

Is there still seeking?
Is it clear without a doubt that there is no you, no Rosie, no separate self in any shape or form?
Yes it is clear, and I notice there is some integration and looking going on with regard to the allowing, deepening, merging described above. The stillness, oneness aware of itself is (who I am) or all that is. This is how it feels and I'm sure there is so much more to explore. The "who I am" referring to oneness being aware even feels too identified. Is it not used this way in LU guidance?

Many thanks

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warissem
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby warissem » Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:18 pm

Good evening
Not sure how to use words to describe when not being active and the stillness becomes more apparent, like now when sitting here typing about it. I was wanting to describe how powerfully present the stillness is as soon as I stop. It's captivating and there is just a wanting to sit and stare into it. I appreciate this redirect again of this being ordinary intimacy, stillness, being aware, because there is still the feeling of being absorbed by it or a merging into it like a warm and soothing bath. One teacher I followed for a while would say to just go sit and marinate in it. Yet your redirect brings the seeing so much deeper when being aware that there is no me to sit in it, or allow it to deepen. More falling and tears are coming up as that it seen and more disappearing is happening, another layer being seen thru to explore and another sneaky place for the separate self to be revealed.
There is no separate self to be revealed. Just be this aware shining light.

Yes it is clear, and I notice there is some integration and looking going on with regard to the allowing, deepening, merging described above. The stillness, oneness aware of itself is (who I am) or all that is. This is how it feels and I'm sure there is so much more to explore.

Yes, wonderful.

The "who I am" referring to oneness being aware even feels too identified. Is it not used this way in LU guidance?
Words are not describing what is, there are just pointers. The value is not in the words but in What is here now.

Here I invite you to ponder on these final questions and elaborate on your answers. These questions can help to see where the illusion is still hiding, if any.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best wishes

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:08 am

It may take me a few posts to get thru these questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
In my daily life I move and act like a separate entity though when I look for it it is not there. I'm still noticing annoyance at things coming up and still working on solutions to health issues for my husband and me and still getting overwhelmed by all the many things in life that need to be dealt with. Even answering this question brings up frustration at whether I'm describing accurately to you about my experience. At the same time I do see more than I did before, when I remember, that I am just moving about in my usual conditioned way but that it is just moving and that there is no "I" moving it about. This is such a new exploration, infancy stage, still flip flopping. Enjoyment is happening when enjoyment is happening and annoyance and overwhelm and frustration are happening when they are happening. I want to be genuine when answering this that I do see that there is no me and never was, and yet I want to be sure that what I have described above is what you are looking for. Does it need to be established and perfectly clear all the time, not just when I remember or when I am asked to look?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now
The illusion of a separate self is a concept I have of who I think I am which turns out to be a just bunch of thoughts about who I think I am. In actuality there is no "me" there. I notice that answering these questions starts to bring up separate self insecurities about getting it "right" or describing it well enough, or separate self doubts that though I have seen through self whether it is enough of a seeing to go thru the "gateless gate". I also see that that these are all just thoughts happening and to just be the sky and let the clouds be clouds.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels like a sensation of falling, like there once was something I thought was there but now it is not and it is a strange feeling; empty, bottomless, and also very still and filled with a luminosity. Before starting this dialogue I experienced profound stillness in meditation and satsangs and other times when focused and still, but in the last few days since I saw there was no me experiencing the stillness and no me making choices it has been different, more intense stillness and more transparency like a seeing beyond into a mystery. It's very hard to describe.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When I was asked to rewrite a sentence about what I thought was choosing/moving from a negative thought to a positive thought, without the "I" or "me" in it. There was a floating sensation of the movement of thoughts just happening like waves on the ocean moving all by themselves. There was no me thinking or choosing them. The strange feeling of seeing there was nothing to stand on felt unsteadying and confusing and I needed to learn to stop looking to make sure it wasn't there. The mystery has been settling in as awareness/stillness/Isness allows itself to be known more and more as the one expressing/moving everything.

More later or tomorrow.
Thank you!

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:44 pm

Good Afternoon

I have family things going on today and there is rushing and cooking and traveling involved so there is no space to sit and reflect on the remaining questions. I am looking deeply into decision, control and choice and have been listening to Illona's self inquiry videos when I can and they are helping me to see where the illusion is still present and needing shifting in the seeming choice area of thinking. I am noticing wishing that I had nothing else to do but this deepening of inquiry but life is taking me where it will and the inquiry is in all of it.

I'll continue either tonight if I get home early enough or tomorrow.

Thank You!

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warissem
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby warissem » Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:19 pm

Good evening
In my daily life I move and act like a separate entity though when I look for it it is not there.
There is no separate entity and it never was. There is a living and behaving like before seeing through the belief of a separate self due to conditioning, tendencies and old habits. It is like a machine going on through a force d'inertie.

I'm still noticing annoyance at things coming up and still working on solutions to health issues for my husband and me and still getting overwhelmed by all the many things in life that need to be dealt with.

This is normal but there is no you doing all this. Thinking about a me doing things is part of a habit, of conditioning. Look if there is a me, a separate self intervening during your daily activities.

Even answering this question brings up frustration at whether I'm describing accurately to you about my experience. At the same time I do see more than I did before, when I remember, that I am just moving about in my usual conditioned way but that it is just moving and that there is no "I" moving it about. This is such a new exploration, infancy stage, still flip flopping. Enjoyment is happening when enjoyment is happening and annoyance and overwhelm and frustration are happening when they are happening.
Yes, all is happening without a manager, a maker, a decider, a thinker, do you see that?

I want to be genuine when answering this that I do see that there is no me and never was, and yet I want to be sure that what I have described above is what you are looking for. Does it need to be established and perfectly clear all the time, not just when I remember or when I am asked to look?
Do you need to remind yourself that Santa Klaus does not exist?
Do you need a reminder when you have seen that there is no tiger under your bed?

I have family things going on today and there is rushing and cooking and traveling involved so there is no space to sit and reflect on the remaining questions. I am looking deeply into decision, control and choice and have been listening to Illona's self inquiry videos when I can and they are helping me to see where the illusion is still present and needing shifting in the seeming choice area of thinking. I am noticing wishing that I had nothing else to do but this deepening of inquiry but life is taking me where it will and the inquiry is in all of it.

I'll continue either tonight if I get home early enough or tomorrow.
There is no urge, take time for it.

Best for you

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:39 am

Good Evening
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
This question has brought up places which I have not been able to see clearly through. Though I had an opening to seeing how everything just happens and flows I was not fully able to see it in all scenarios and really didn't even know how to describe where or why I was stuck. It was "perfect" that I happened to see Ilona's self inquiry series and as I continue to watch it it's really helping so much with this. I do now see that although there are decisions and choices being made there is "no chooser, or decision maker". At first it felt unsteadying and I was resisting it but now it actually feels quite magical how everything moves and flows together in the flow of the whole of life. I've been experiencing it in my day right now as a calmness that is much more noticeable in the midst of overwhelm and turmoil. I have had a lot going on at once right now, family holiday dinner yesterday, baby sitting for my grand children responsibilities, friends coming to stay with us from Ireland and having to get the house all ready, as well as my son getting married on May 4th and having to get ready to travel across the country and be away for 10 days and all the planning and activities that go along with seeing family and friends while we are there, etc., etc. Normally my conditioned response to all this would be overwhelm and pressure and nervousness about it all getting done, but yesterday something different happened. When I sat down to write to you that I had no time to respond, in the calmness of the moment ideas for how to have more space and time to get it all done arose and since then I have been noticing that it keeps happening that way. As more and more things come up to be done whenever a tenseness and contraction is there a calmness is apparent that just keeps creating space and knowing that there is not an I doing anything and that all is and will just get done the way it will get done. This is a huge shift for me as I have struggled with overwhelm my whole life.
I haven't looked as closely at intention and free will so I may need some help with them. I'm not sure if Ilona will talk about them in her series. Maybe you have something for me to listen to to understand them in this light. Certainly if everything is just all happening in the flow of life then intention and free will are part of the flow, but I don't really understand them fully. I have more to say about this but that's all I can write for now.

More tomorrow.
Thank you!

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warissem
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby warissem » Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:25 pm

Hi Rosie

I am glad to read to read your post, it is beautiful.
I haven't looked as closely at intention and free will so I may need some help with them. I'm not sure if Ilona will talk about them in her series. Maybe you have something for me to listen to to understand them in this light. Certainly if everything is just all happening in the flow of life then intention and free will are part of the flow, but I don't really understand them fully. I have more to say about this but that's all I can write for now.
Yes, there is a difference between a logical conclusion and the seeing of the truth.

It is said that intention is something you mean to do, whether you pull it off or not.
Is intention different from a thought?
Can a thought mean something to be done?

Free will is defined as the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Then a "free willer" is the same as the decision maker.
Is there someone which has this power, a separate self, a you? Can you find it in any shape or form?

Example : I want to go to the wedding of my son.
Is there Rosie having an intention or is it just a thought arising?
After having seen this thought, the action can be taken or not.
Is there Rosie, a separate self choosing to go to the other side of the country or not?

Here is an exercise which will help to be clear about intention and free will.
1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.
“Can you see a self making the body leave the bed?”

2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction
etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

Best for you

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:14 am

Good evening.
Is intention different from a thought?
Can a thought mean something to be done?
Yes I can see that intention is no different than a thought. I have thought of it as a visualization of something I would like to have happen in my life. I have had times in my life where I have felt that my visualization has helped me manifest what i was intending. I was a Feng Shui practitioner and practiced rituals for manifestation. I felt that I had manifested my house that way. But as I look back on it now I remember that there was a point that I had to completely let go of the outcome because we suddenly needed more money for closing and I didn't know where it was going to come from. So I had to let let and trust that it might not be my house, and in the inward letting go the money miraculously showed up. I see now that though I thought I had manifested the house with my intention that it was all just happening in the flow like everything in life. In fact part of what is taught in manifesting things is to visualize and then let go and let the universe take care of it. So it's all just part of the flow. Now that I have seen the deeper knowing that there is no visualizer, intender, chooser, doer, etc it has been feeling like a big relief and a deeper level of calmness is there just enjoying the flow of existence.

With free will I see that there is no free willer also yet somehow I feel it could be that just being in the flow and seeing that there is no free willer willing things to be a certain way is a kind of free will, but probably not. It might be more mind stuff creeping in but do you see what I mean here?
The question is always freewill vs destiny. So is there destiny? Is destiny then the flow of life going where it wills itself to go?

I don't have time to write about each exercise individually. In going thru them I do see that there is no chooser in each example, no self moving me around. I see that I am not in control of focus or attention or breathing or when I fall asleep or which hand I raise. Thoughts just arise and attention just moves from one thing to another on it's own. It's kind of a weird feeling but also freeing. I'm getting more accustomed to it. There is less noise in the mind and more and calmness is there. And when something does start to feel contracted it shifts fairly easily back to calmness because I am accessing from there so much more.

Thank you!

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warissem
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby warissem » Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:16 am

Good morning

You are doing a good job here. I hope that your answers will be of a good help to readers of this topic.
With free will I see that there is no free willer also yet somehow I feel it could be that just being in the flow and seeing that there is no free willer willing things to be a certain way is a kind of free will, but probably not. It might be more mind stuff creeping in but do you see what I mean here?
There cannot be free will without an actor : do you see this clearly?
The question is always freewill vs destiny. So is there destiny? Is destiny then the flow of life going where it wills itself to go?
This is a question of philosophy, let's say determinism instead of destiny because the concept "destiny" implies an actor (a destiny of who). Look around and see that "all what is going on" JUST IS : 5 senses appearances, thoughts, feelings, emotions, states of mind, actions, no action, silence, noise, ...

Now, I invite you to complete your answers :

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Sat Apr 27, 2024 5:58 am

Good Evening

I just wanted to let you know that I have been busy all day with my friends visiting from Ireland and was not able to get to finishing the questions today.

I will get back to it tomorrow.

Thank you!

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warissem
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby warissem » Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:47 am

Good morning

Take time for it.

Have a nice day.

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Sun Apr 28, 2024 3:36 am

Good Evening,
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This takes some introspection. In order for there to be responsibility there would need to be "someone" being responsible.
When I look for who would be the one being responsible there is no one there. I have been a very responsible "person" in my life so this one is is catching. Yet all is just flowing and moving and changing inside of a calm space. This is not the way it feels all the time. When in the course of an active day with social interactions I find that I am pretty much doing what I always did before and not always aware of the calm space but it is much more apparent than is was before and there is a much deeper looking that is present more than before also. Prior to this guidance conversation we have been having I would have said that I am not responsible for what happens in life but am responsible for how I "choose" to respond to what happens. So it seems that responsibility is another way for the thinker to think it is choosing. With each one of these questions I find that it gets a bit sticky again and I have to look deeper and then if I'm looking deeper I then again want to look at who is looking.
As I write this I'm seeing once again that responsibility is just happening and choosing to respond is just happening like everything else. I do feel I am being responsible in life as a mother, and wife, etc. and even in following up on the rules of LU by responding everyday. Life does take some responsibility to just show up and do what needs to be done just to survive and go on day to day, yet I see that it is all just responsibility happening, arising and falling and moving and changing with everything that flows in the oneness of life. That is a relief and feels much more relaxing.

6) Anything to add?
I find it interesting that with each question I needed to keep looking to remove the layering of the language of identification. Responsibility and choice are so imbedded in even our more conscious current self help and spiritual culture so it takes something to pierce that veil continuously. My experience though is that once this is seen through it feels so much better that it starts to go on a kind of ongoing self correction. For some it is a pop into it, for me it has been very gradual and any time the mind tries to question the seeing through it I only need to look again. And every time I look again the mind wants to know who is looking, but that is just a thought. I notice I may need some help with this again even though It is just a thought. Sorry to end up here in a loop or a blank. There is some layer holding on I guess. It feels like a void. So that is actually a good place to be. The one looking is always the nothing space. The mind will never make sense of this though it keeps trying. The mind can not enter the mystery so it just goes quiet and settling into the nothing space happens.

Thank you!!

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Sun Apr 28, 2024 3:36 am

Good Evening,
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This takes some introspection. In order for there to be responsibility there would need to be "someone" being responsible.
When I look for who would be the one being responsible there is no one there. I have been a very responsible "person" in my life so this one is is catching. Yet all is just flowing and moving and changing inside of a calm space. This is not the way it feels all the time. When in the course of an active day with social interactions I find that I am pretty much doing what I always did before and not always aware of the calm space but it is much more apparent than is was before and there is a much deeper looking that is present more than before also. Prior to this guidance conversation we have been having I would have said that I am not responsible for what happens in life but am responsible for how I "choose" to respond to what happens. So it seems that responsibility is another way for the thinker to think it is choosing. With each one of these questions I find that it gets a bit sticky again and I have to look deeper and then if I'm looking deeper I then again want to look at who is looking.
As I write this I'm seeing once again that responsibility is just happening and choosing to respond is just happening like everything else. I do feel I am being responsible in life as a mother, and wife, etc. and even in following up on the rules of LU by responding everyday. Life does take some responsibility to just show up and do what needs to be done just to survive and go on day to day, yet I see that it is all just responsibility happening, arising and falling and moving and changing with everything that flows in the oneness of life. That is a relief and feels much more relaxing.

6) Anything to add?
I find it interesting that with each question I needed to keep looking to remove the layering of the language of identification. Responsibility and choice are so imbedded in even our more conscious current self help and spiritual culture so it takes something to pierce that veil continuously. My experience though is that once this is seen through it feels so much better that it starts to go on a kind of ongoing self correction. For some it is a pop into it, for me it has been very gradual and any time the mind tries to question the seeing through it I only need to look again. And every time I look again the mind wants to know who is looking, but that is just a thought. I notice I may need some help with this again even though It is just a thought. Sorry to end up here in a loop or a blank. There is some layer holding on I guess. It feels like a void. So that is actually a good place to be. The one looking is always the nothing space. The mind will never make sense of this though it keeps trying. The mind can not enter the mystery so it just goes quiet and settling into the nothing space happens.

Thank you!!

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Primrose9
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Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Sun Apr 28, 2024 3:36 am

Good Evening,
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This takes some introspection. In order for there to be responsibility there would need to be "someone" being responsible.
When I look for who would be the one being responsible there is no one there. I have been a very responsible "person" in my life so this one is is catching. Yet all is just flowing and moving and changing inside of a calm space. This is not the way it feels all the time. When in the course of an active day with social interactions I find that I am pretty much doing what I always did before and not always aware of the calm space but it is much more apparent than is was before and there is a much deeper looking that is present more than before also. Prior to this guidance conversation we have been having I would have said that I am not responsible for what happens in life but am responsible for how I "choose" to respond to what happens. So it seems that responsibility is another way for the thinker to think it is choosing. With each one of these questions I find that it gets a bit sticky again and I have to look deeper and then if I'm looking deeper I then again want to look at who is looking.
As I write this I'm seeing once again that responsibility is just happening and choosing to respond is just happening like everything else. I do feel I am being responsible in life as a mother, and wife, etc. and even in following up on the rules of LU by responding everyday. Life does take some responsibility to just show up and do what needs to be done just to survive and go on day to day, yet I see that it is all just responsibility happening, arising and falling and moving and changing with everything that flows in the oneness of life. That is a relief and feels much more relaxing.

6) Anything to add?
I find it interesting that with each question I needed to keep looking to remove the layering of the language of identification. Responsibility and choice are so imbedded in even our more conscious current self help and spiritual culture so it takes something to pierce that veil continuously. My experience though is that once this is seen through it feels so much better that it starts to go on a kind of ongoing self correction. For some it is a pop into it, for me it has been very gradual and any time the mind tries to question the seeing through it I only need to look again. And every time I look again the mind wants to know who is looking, but that is just a thought. I notice I may need some help with this again even though It is just a thought. Sorry to end up here in a loop or a blank. There is some layer holding on I guess. It feels like a void. So that is actually a good place to be. The one looking is always the nothing space. The mind will never make sense of this though it keeps trying. The mind can not enter the mystery so it just goes quiet and settling into the nothing space happens.

Thank you!!

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Primrose9
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:12 pm

Re: Joy of Experiencing

Postby Primrose9 » Sun Apr 28, 2024 3:36 am

Good Evening,
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This takes some introspection. In order for there to be responsibility there would need to be "someone" being responsible.
When I look for who would be the one being responsible there is no one there. I have been a very responsible "person" in my life so this one is is catching. Yet all is just flowing and moving and changing inside of a calm space. This is not the way it feels all the time. When in the course of an active day with social interactions I find that I am pretty much doing what I always did before and not always aware of the calm space but it is much more apparent than is was before and there is a much deeper looking that is present more than before also. Prior to this guidance conversation we have been having I would have said that I am not responsible for what happens in life but am responsible for how I "choose" to respond to what happens. So it seems that responsibility is another way for the thinker to think it is choosing. With each one of these questions I find that it gets a bit sticky again and I have to look deeper and then if I'm looking deeper I then again want to look at who is looking.
As I write this I'm seeing once again that responsibility is just happening and choosing to respond is just happening like everything else. I do feel I am being responsible in life as a mother, and wife, etc. and even in following up on the rules of LU by responding everyday. Life does take some responsibility to just show up and do what needs to be done just to survive and go on day to day, yet I see that it is all just responsibility happening, arising and falling and moving and changing with everything that flows in the oneness of life. That is a relief and feels much more relaxing.

6) Anything to add?
I find it interesting that with each question I needed to keep looking to remove the layering of the language of identification. Responsibility and choice are so imbedded in even our more conscious current self help and spiritual culture so it takes something to pierce that veil continuously. My experience though is that once this is seen through it feels so much better that it starts to go on a kind of ongoing self correction. For some it is a pop into it, for me it has been very gradual and any time the mind tries to question the seeing through it I only need to look again. And every time I look again the mind wants to know who is looking, but that is just a thought. I notice I may need some help with this again even though It is just a thought. Sorry to end up here in a loop or a blank. There is some layer holding on I guess. It feels like a void. So that is actually a good place to be. The one looking is always the nothing space. The mind will never make sense of this though it keeps trying. The mind can not enter the mystery so it just goes quiet and settling into the nothing space happens.

Thank you!!


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