Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:01 pm

Noticing of the closet door, noticing body sensations, where is the noticing happening? Is there any distance between the closet door being noticed and the body sensation being noticed?
Looking closer, there's no distinct "noticing" to be found. There's the body sensations. There's the door. They are noticed. But there's not also a happening called "noticing." The sensations and door are just there. Their qualities are experienced, yet there's not also an experiencer.
Were you able to find and feel "Jason" in a direct way like the other parts of your body? Where is it? What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Jason” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.
Not there. It seemed silly, even, to consider finding a "Jason" that could be pointed to the way the torso, feet, and face could.

These replies are coming out very sparse because language is getting clunky. Some words like "notice" and "experience" are needing to have the implied "noticer" and "experiencer" removed. There's awe.

Thank you again,
Jason

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:37 pm

Hi Jason,
Noticing of the closet door, noticing body sensations, where is the noticing happening? Is there any distance between the closet door being noticed and the body sensation being noticed?

Looking closer, there's no distinct "noticing" to be found. There's the body sensations. There's the door. They are noticed. But there's not also a happening called "noticing." The sensations and door are just there. Their qualities are experienced, yet there's not also an experiencer.
This is it.
and if there is no experiencer what is there?

Concepts, when challenged start to get seen through, the house of cards start to wobble.
Question everything, is it true?

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice. Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appeal by themselves?
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:00 am

if there is no experiencer what is there?
Just reality.
This one needs more investigation.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appeal by themselves?
“I” did not choose anything. It felt like attention just showed up, open and expecting qualities to appear.
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
Preferences popped up by themselves, but they didn't stay consistent.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
When counting began, the drink "choosing" just quieted. Nobody told it to do that.
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No, it seemed more like an excited curiousity to see which choice was going to arise.

Have you seen this function in action?
Yes, in creative work. This is the same way ideas come. Attention goes to where ideas might be and they seem to show up.

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:00 am

Hi Jason,

Have you seen this function in action?
Yes, in creative work. This is the same way ideas come. Attention goes to where ideas might be and they seem to show up.
Yes, where attention goes - there energy flows. Let's try something.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.

Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, watch attention itself.

Do you move it?

Or it moves by itself?


Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings,
sounds.

Is this something you control?

What moves attention?
Is thinking in control of attention?


Describe what you see.
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:11 am

Today offered multiple opportunities to affirm that “this is what is happening.” This non-perspective made these experiences far smoother than memory reports of anything similar.
Focus on focusing, watch attention itself.
Do you move it? Or it moves by itself?
It certainly seemed there was a choice exerted to begin this exercise, even like there was a focuser at the beginning. But then focus clearly moved by no apparent choice.
Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings,
sounds.
Is this something you control?
Here there is no sense of a controller.
What moves attention?
It appears to move on its own, or at least by an unperceived mechanism.
Is thinking in control of attention?
There’s nothing to suggest that thoughts have anything like this kind of ability. They arise, and attention moves toward them to varying degrees.

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:04 am

Hi Jason
Today offered multiple opportunities to affirm that “this is what is happening.” This non-perspective made these experiences far smoother than memory reports of anything similar.
Perfect, now you are seeing that this pointing can be applied in everyday situations, conversations at work, interactions with family and driving, all offer opportunity to explore and see what is truly happening.
What is happening without concepts and beliefs contrived by thought, and even how thought colours what you see and hear and feel, you don't need exercises, its all there in front of you.

But we will do the exercises anyway.
if there is no experiencer what is there?
Just reality.
This one needs more investigation.
Yes investigate, is this true?
what comes up?


Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:36 am

if there is no experiencer what is there?
Just reality.
This one needs more investigation.
Yes investigate, is this true?
what comes up?
Noticing that “reality” is a conceptual answer. The DE answer is that if there is no experiencer, there is only experience. Even to call it “direct” experience would suggest the presence of someone who might otherwise be able to experience indirectly.
The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

…remember a time when you lied to someone you loved…

… scan your body…
What is found?
What is found is a contraction / tension in the throat, chest, and solar plexus before focusing on the lie to a loved one.

{acknowledging a momentary step away from DE: Memory says these tense sensations have been nearly constant for decades. This sheds light on the body sensations that arise while doing this work — when there’s been a new seeing of truth, there’s an accompanying sensation of expansion, a noticeable unclenching of these same long-constricted areas}

Calling up an “old” memory of faking an injury to get someone I loved to stay and show their concern. This memory did not bring noticeable change in body sensations. Tried again with other memories, got similar results. Then, listening to a news show (all politics, all lying) while cleaning the kitchen, the throat and chest constriction came to the forefront of awareness.

Thank you yet again for your continued kindness and insightful guidance,
Jason

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:01 am

Hi Jason,
Really good investigation.
Noticing that “reality” is a conceptual answer. The DE answer is that if there is no experiencer, there is only experience. Even to call it “direct” experience would suggest the presence of someone who might otherwise be able to experience indirectly.

If no experiencer is there an experience?

What is found?

What is found is a contraction / tension in the throat, chest, and solar plexus before focusing on the lie to a loved one.

{acknowledging a momentary step away from DE: Memory says these tense sensations have been nearly constant for decades. This sheds light on the body sensations that arise while doing this work — when there’s been a new seeing of truth, there’s an accompanying sensation of expansion, a noticeable unclenching of these same long-constricted areas}
Yes more than likely this contraction or tension has been for a long time, it's so constant we feel its just normal.
Let's see this as one contracting sensation, this sounds very immediate and discernible, so we know what to look for. When you start to feel this, notice the labels that get put on these sensations by thought (stories that have a narrative which are derivatives of Fear, like anger, guilt, shame etc)

Take some time to sit with the sensation, feel into it in the way of really Being at one with it. Talk to the sensation (literally), acknowledging its presence, thank it for appearing, let it know that it is safe and it can leave now. Show Love to the sensation, acknowledge it, the sensations may pass immediately or it may take a little time, be with it for as long as it takes for it to pass, and do it as often as it appears.

What do you notice?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:39 am

I’d really like to be with these two investigations (“Is there experience?” and body constrictions) more than I was able to today. I did bring attention to the heart at various points throughout the day and it will clearly be beneficial to do this more.
It’s a fun element that for these couple of days I’m traveling with my wife and kids, staying in my childhood home as we visit my parents. Surrounded by the “scene of the crime” in the story of identity creation is kind of a hilarious place to bring this work.

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:31 am

Hi Jason,
Perfect, enjoy.
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:50 am

Another day of our short family trip and again not much opportunity for alone time and deep investigation. But during a big meal with all the relatives, there was a great moment of the heart constriction coming to the front of awareness. Taking notice of what had just been going on, I’d been so unfairly expecting my young daughter to behave differently, when she was really just being herself. I breathed with attention on the chest for a few moments. The thought arose that she could either have a fun family experience here, or have a frustrating time fighting with me and her impulses. We both enjoyed the evening much more after that.
Returning home tomorrow, and will be glad to do more focused work.
Meanwhile, we all brought the kids to an educational nature center. Our guide showed us a tank with some venomous creatures from Australia where, he explained, some of the world’s most dangerous and deadly creatures have evolved. He said it’s the one place he’s too afraid to go study wildlife. I hope that gives you the laugh I thought it might, and that you’re safely enjoying nature in your area.

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:32 pm

Hi Jason,
A beautiful sharing of these moments.Thank you
We live through conditioning and expect that the world has to fit into our individual expectations, the way we want things to be, when it doesn't we suffer, and often its not enough that we suffer on our own but we also spread it to the people around us.
What you have done is seen through the thought stories in real time and manifested a perfect experiencing with your daughter and family.
Now the truth is that this was always going to be this way because its the only thing that could ever happened.

Australia does have some seriously deadly creatures, but to be honest, in all my days in environments where these creatures do habitat I have never been close enough to be worried by one, that I know of haha. Mostly they are more scared of humans than we are of them.

Come back to me when ready and enjoy the family time :)
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:39 am

Ok, I’m back at home and ready to really look.
If no experiencer is there an experience?
AH, no! Uh oh, some serious crumbling here. Because experiencing would inherently be done by an experiencer. Body sensations happen. There is a body, there are sensations that arise in it. There is the sight/image of a pillow. There is not also a “noticing” of these things. This means there is not an “experiencing,” and there is no experience.
So the mind is confused. It says: “But if there is no experience or experiencer, why are there all of these experience-adjacent things? There are memories, plans, stories, roles, responsibilities, worries, regrets, accomplishments, fears, and relationships. What is this crazy situation that would have all of these built around no one?”
But every piece of supposed evidence on that list is thought, just like the confusion and the question themselves.
So there are sensations, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and there are thoughts. Anything else that seems to exist... is thought.
Mind responds: "Children? Wife? House? Creative work? Contributions to the world? Are these just meaningless hallucinations, then?"
There are sights and sounds and sensations that are interpreted by thoughts to be people and things. Thought labels sensations and weaves them into the perception of an experience. Any element is as meaningful as thought makes it out to be.
It’s almost midnight here, and as I plan to wrap this up, I just dozed off for a few seconds — the dream that immediately began was the mind continuing this conversation, but the dream had replaced “experience” with sugar, and was reeling with the question of “What am I going to sweeten everything with tomorrow if there’s no sugar?”

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overthought
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby overthought » Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:07 am

Back to your guidance on sitting with the contracting sensation, conversing with it, and offering it love and the safety to leave.
Let's see this as one contracting sensation...

When you start to feel this, notice the labels that get put on these sensations by thought...

...be with it for as long as it takes for it to pass, and do it as often as it appears...

What do you notice?
The throat/heart constriction became very apparent today during one of my daughter's frequent struggle with rage, which gets directed at the rest of the family. The DE is a strong tightness in the throat, a heavy, dull constriction in the chest, and a tightened face/brow. While she went to play with a friend, I sat for a while, giving the attention as you instructed. The constriction didn't entirely pass when I ran out of time, but I have noticed a significant decrease in the couple of hours since. I’ll keep up this practice.

The labels that get put on these sensations include frustration, anger, sadness, grief, exhaustion, guilt, shame, and overwhelm.

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CarefulDog88
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Re: Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

Postby CarefulDog88 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:09 am

Hi Jason,
If no experiencer is there an experience?

AH, no! Uh oh, some serious crumbling here.
A really strong inquiry and lots to look at, the truth is when you go to the source and can't find it then yes all of the thought based concepts and beliefs do crumble and start to fall apart.
There are sights and sounds and sensations that are interpreted by thoughts to be people and things. Thought labels sensations and weaves them into the perception of an experience. Any element is as meaningful as thought makes it out to be.
Yes, or as meaningful. Thought happens, It is the illusory nature we want to see and let go of the beliefs and concepts that it presents in the stories and content.
The labels that get put on these sensations include frustration, anger, sadness, grief, exhaustion, guilt, shame, and overwhelm.
Take the labels away what is there?
Take the word frustration away, what is there?
The same with anger, sadness, grief, exhaustion, guilt, shame, and overwhelm what is there?

The throat/heart constriction became very apparent today during one of my daughter's frequent struggle with rage, which gets directed at the rest of the family.
Perfect opportunity to inquire and also to observe the nature of the experiencing of the loved ones and seeing how the suffering arises for them. Definitely continue the practice of sitting with the contraction, This has been with you all your life it wont dissolve overnight, it will take time to unravel.

Lets try this exercise:

1. Shift between letting the arm be still and move. Several times and pay close attention.
Where does the "decision", the "command" to move or stop come from? What makes the arm move? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body, can you find that in direct experience?

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
With Loving Kindness
Paul


What you long for is already constantly you.
It's simply what's happening.


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