Unconditioned Wholeness

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:25 pm

Hi Rowena,
I have a full schedule and am resting in the evenings. I'll respond to the recent post as soon as possible, most likely this weekend.
Anaeli

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Fri Apr 05, 2024 4:36 pm

Hi Anaeli,

Thanks for letting me know, I hope you get the rest you need.

Love,
Rowena

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:41 am

1. So, when you look at the word label 'GREEN', what is your actual experience?
Is the red color 'experienced' when you look at the above question, or is the color green 'experienced' as the label suggests?
The color red is experienced.

2. Does the label 'GREEN' have a one-to-one correspondence with 'reality' (what you are actually experiencing in Direct Experience)? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?
No, it doesn't suggest anything else, other than the direct seeing of red.

3. Is the label 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is the word 'green' just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
Green is only an overlay.

Are you now clear that there is nothing green there to experience?
All we are doing is noticing that the words are not the things themselves - never have been and never will be.
Are you clear about that?
Yes, it's clear.


Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup? There's only an image.
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'? No.


The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images,
their 'presence' cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, are not 'real', they are just fantasies.
Can you see this?
Yes. I can see/discern the difference.
Over the next day or so, I would like you to notice the content of thoughts.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it is about) is really happening, or whether the content is just pure imagination.
Let me know how it goes.
It's only a thought stream when I'm actually thinking about something. It doesn't take long to bring the thinking flow to a complete stop. When I go for walks, I'm simply being and experiencing. No thoughts.
SECOND CUP EXERCISE
Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice any thoughts about the cup labelling what you see.
Consider the process of Looking.
Now consider the process of Seeing.
Watch your thoughts as you consider 'a seer'.
Watch any sensations in your body as you consider 'a seer'.
Notice what happens to Seeing as you consider a 'seer'. What changes?
Now:
Go back to watching thoughts about the cup as you continue to look at the cup.
After a while of watching thoughts, the thoughts will get bored and slow down.
Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus fully on Seeing in the spaces between thoughts.
Without labels there is simply seeing.
Colors, textures, shapes, etc. will be too subtle, too complex to be accurately described.
As this direct experience of seeing is happening:
Can a 'seer' or what's 'seen' actually be found? No.
Can a line of demarcation between seer or seen be found? No.
Or, is there just seeing happening? Simply seeing.

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:42 am

Hi Rowena,
Was able to sit with the questions tonight and will rest now.
Anaeli

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Sat Apr 06, 2024 4:38 pm

Hi Anaeli,

Great seeing! I will send you another exercise tomorrow.

Love,
Rowena

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Sat Apr 06, 2024 7:01 pm

Thanks, Rowena!

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Sun Apr 07, 2024 6:54 pm

Hi Anaeli,

I understand if you have a lot on, please take your time with this exercise and get back to me when you can.

INTRODUCTORY BODY EXERCISE

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

With love,

Rowena

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:10 pm

INTRODUCTORY BODY EXERCISE

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No
Is there an inside or an outside?
No
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? There's no inside
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
There's no outside
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
there's nothing, but in language terms, it refers to perceptions, sensations, imaginations (self image)
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
vast expanse, difficult to put into words

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:24 am

Hi Anaeli,

Great looking/seeing with the last exercise.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
there's nothing, but in language terms, it refers to perceptions, sensations, imaginations (self image)
YES!
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
vast expanse, difficult to put into words
I understand where you are coming from, but as a concession towards communication, please could you describe your DE of the body regarding the any one or more of the five senses.


In the first set of questions, before guiding began you wrote:
I spend a lot of time alone and would very much like to converse and receive honest facilitation/guidance, especially in context of that's offered here.
I have given you a number of pointing exercises and I can see how clearly you are seeing that the concept of "self" is an illusion.

Looking back over the thread, I see that I overlooked to reply to what you shared below:
I mostly speak with people online, yet can still feel the subtle shifts in energy with people. Sometimes its easy and experience stability and clarity, and sometimes there's discomfort, pressure, heat, etc. (can't pinpoint why there's an unexpected difference as I'm not judging or labeling people)
Is there an expectation here that subtle shifts in energy with people should not happen?
Is there an expectation for it to be always easy, feeling stability and clarity?

How does the body feel when there is ease, stability and clarity?
How does the body feel when there is discomfort, pressure, heat etc.?
Where in the body do those sensations arise generally?


You wrote "I'm not judging or labeling people."
But judging and labeling can happen, as can a pull towards or a pushing away from something.

Is there a subtle thought/belief about judging and other labelling?

Anything else you would like to explore?
Any comments about this guiding process,
how is it going for you?

With love,
Rowena

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:05 am

Hi Rowena,
I trust all's well.

Here's the latest response.
I understand where you are coming from, but as a concession towards communication, please could you describe your DE of the body regarding the any one or more of the five senses.
Fluid, shifting, subtle sensations

Looking back over the thread, I see that I overlooked to reply to what you shared below:
I mostly speak with people online, yet can still feel the subtle shifts in energy with people. Sometimes its easy and experience stability and clarity, and sometimes there's discomfort, pressure, heat, etc. (can't pinpoint why there's an unexpected difference as I'm not judging or labeling people)
Is there an expectation here that subtle shifts in energy with people should not happen?
No, there's no expectation. After meeting, it is done. There are no further thoughts or recollections.
Is there an expectation for it to be always easy, feeling stability and clarity?
No. Releasing expectations with immediate birth family and accepting that the patterns/conditions from formative years are no longer taking course. As much as they expect me to return to who I was (or play into the family image), it's no longer possible.
How does the body feel when there is ease, stability and clarity?
empty, light, no need to force or pretend anything.
How does the body feel when there is discomfort, pressure, heat etc.?
somewhat contracted, but usually passed quickly.
Where in the body do those sensations arise generally?
It varies, but mostly in the heart area.
You wrote "I'm not judging or labeling people."
But judging and labeling can happen, as can a pull towards or a pushing away from something.
Is there a subtle thought/belief about judging and other labelling?
No, it's not a usual habit, but may have said that from having been judged so much in birth family system. (for not fitting in)
I'm immediately aware of when this counteraction in the mind happens. It's not as much as before and I fully know there's nothing to prove or defend.
Anything else you would like to explore?
I feel restful and have much change in the works, with relocation, livelihood, etc. Maybe a brief exploration regarding my final release from immediate birth family. When I was younger, I would disappear and rarely stay in contact. I was on my own. There were several conflictual years of push-pull activity, and now, there's a deeper rest and acceptance. I don't have any fears on finally moving on, at the same time, feel that family will continue to try to check on me, worry, attempt to project...I would like to see if there's any blind spots, as I'm transitioning away from mother's home. This is not to bring up a narrative/story, but to fully understand why I was here and what brought me back.
Any comments about this guiding process,
I don't have any specific questions or comments, yet grateful that you have freely offered to guide and facilitate the inquiry process. Thank you.
how is it going for you?
I've had many insights and deep realizations lately and will be leaving mother's home in a few weeks. There was a "blow up" with a couple of older siblings. Basically, I'm not welcome here. Not for anything that I'm doing. I'm simply not able to engage with their expectations, and they get intensely upset. Of course, there are still a few emotional residuals around them, but no attachments. I don't usually bring up perceived problems and find that walks and sitting quietly quickly reveals the source more than talking about it. All in all, life is going well.

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:25 am

Hi Anaeli,

Thank you for sharing. There are a few things you mentioned that would be worth exploring:
I feel restful and have much change in the works, with relocation, livelihood, etc. Maybe a brief exploration regarding my final release from immediate birth family. When I was younger, I would disappear and rarely stay in contact. I was on my own. There were several conflictual years of push-pull activity, and now, there's a deeper rest and acceptance. I don't have any fears on finally moving on, at the same time, feel that family will continue to try to check on me, worry, attempt to project...I would like to see if there's any blind spots, as I'm transitioning away from mother's home. This is not to bring up a narrative/story, but to fully understand why I was here and what brought me back.
I can see how being in this family situation would, under circumstances where the illusion of self was still in operation, be an extremely stressful one, but you feel restful and without any fears about moving on, and at the same time you are open to the possibility of there being blind spots.

Please will you elaborate on what you consider a blind spot to be.

You also mention that you would like to "fully understand why I was here and what brought me back."
Please take a moment and sit with this question:

"I would like to fully understand why I was here and what brought me back?"

Who or what is it that is needing this understanding.
What is happening in direct experience when you say these words?
What feelings or sensations are arising in the body?
Can you just be with this 'wanting to understand' and the sensations that arise without understanding being revealed?


I've had many insights and deep realizations lately and will be leaving mother's home in a few weeks. There was a "blow up" with a couple of older siblings. Basically, I'm not welcome here. Not for anything that I'm doing. I'm simply not able to engage with their expectations, and they get intensely upset. Of course, there are still a few emotional residuals around them, but no attachments. I don't usually bring up perceived problems and find that walks and sitting quietly quickly reveals the source more than talking about it. All in all, life is going well.
"Of course, there are still a few emotional residuals around them, but no attachments."
How do these emotional residuals manifest?
Thoughts?
Feelings?
Sensations?

I don't usually bring up perceived problems and find that walks and sitting quietly quickly reveals the source more than talking about it.
Is there an "I" who actually perceives problems or is it thought content?
What sensations arise when there are thoughts about perceived problems?
What do the walks and/or sitting quietly reveal as the source from your direct experience?

What is it that wants to find a source?

Is any of that "you"?

Do you control thought?
Do you control movement?
Do you control attention?
Do you control sensations and feelings?
Do you control or have responsibility over anything?

Is there any separate self whatsoever?


With love,

Rowena

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Anaeli
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:37 pm

Thanks, Rowena.
Thank you for sharing. There are a few things you mentioned that would be worth exploring:
I feel restful and have much change in the works, with relocation, livelihood, etc. Maybe a brief exploration regarding my final release from immediate birth family. When I was younger, I would disappear and rarely stay in contact. I was on my own. There were several conflictual years of push-pull activity, and now, there's a deeper rest and acceptance. I don't have any fears on finally moving on, at the same time, feel that family will continue to try to check on me, worry, attempt to project...I would like to see if there's any blind spots, as I'm transitioning away from mother's home. This is not to bring up a narrative/story, but to fully understand why I was here and what brought me back.
I can see how being in this family situation would, under circumstances where the illusion of self was still in operation, be an extremely stressful one, but you feel restful and without any fears about moving on, and at the same time you are open to the possibility of there being blind spots.
Please will you elaborate on what you consider a blind spot to be.
It's okay. Blindspot simply means something that I'm not seeing, but realized what this is already. Soon after I sent this message there was a sensation around my chest with cooling tears. I sat for a while and let tears flow. It was a natural releasing at a deeper level. There's nothing more to say.
You also mention that you would like to "fully understand why I was here and what brought me back."
Please take a moment and sit with this question:
"I would like to fully understand why I was here and what brought me back?"
Yes, I realize that there is no need to understand. There's been much release and emotional clearing that I'm not in control of. It's simply moving through.
Who or what is it that is needing this understanding.
actually no one
What is happening in direct experience when you say these words? actually nothing
What feelings or sensations are arising in the body?
There are subtle movements, but disappear quickly.
Can you just be with this 'wanting to understand' and the sensations that arise without understanding being revealed?
Yes, it's okay to let everything be as it is.

I've had many insights and deep realizations lately and will be leaving mother's home in a few weeks. There was a "blow up" with a couple of older siblings. Basically, I'm not welcome here. Not for anything that I'm doing. I'm simply not able to engage with their expectations, and they get intensely upset. Of course, there are still a few emotional residuals around them, but no attachments. I don't usually bring up perceived problems and find that walks and sitting quietly quickly reveals the source more than talking about it. All in all, life is going well.
"Of course, there are still a few emotional residuals around them, but no attachments."
How do these emotional residuals manifest?
mental movements, tears
Again, I usually sit still or go on silent walks to move the energy through.
Non-painful, energetic releases. There used to be a stuckness, heaviness or resistance and now is much lighter.

Thoughts?
no thoughts
Feelings?
no specific feelings
Sensations?
more like movement in the body
I don't usually bring up perceived problems and find that walks and sitting quietly quickly reveals the source more than talking about it.
Is there an "I" who actually perceives problems or is it thought content?
no
What sensations arise when there are thoughts about perceived problems?
Language and trying to describe is tricky. I realize soon enough that there is nothing, and the sensations that do arise disappear quickly. There's nothing to hold on to.
What do the walks and/or sitting quietly reveal as the source from your direct experience?
There is nothing there, yet the source of the sensations constantly comes and goes.
What is it that wants to find a source?
Mind activity. It helps to simply practice mindfulness and to rest through the movements.
Is any of that "you"?
No
Do you control thought?
No
Do you control movement?
No
Do you control attention?
No
Do you control sensations and feelings?
No
Do you control or have responsibility over anything?
No
Is there any separate self whatsoever?
No, there is no separate self to be found.

Thank you

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:03 pm

Hi Anaeli,

That was a quick response!
Who or what is it that is needing this understanding.
actually no one
What is happening in direct experience when you say these words? actually nothing
Are you sure that there is actually nothing. We are not looking from a perspective of radical non-duality here.
Looking at this in DE is there not mental activity (thoughts), sound (if saying out loud) and some sensations all happening?
What do the walks and/or sitting quietly reveal as the source from your direct experience?
There is nothing there, yet the source of the sensations constantly comes and goes.
I am not 100% sure that I am understanding what you mean by the source of the sensations.
Is this a looking for a root cause, perhaps some trauma that has yet to be fully embraced ?
Do sensations have to have a source in order to arise and be felt?

What is it that wants to find a source?
Mind activity. It helps to simply practice mindfulness and to rest through the movements.


Yes, and to allow the sensations to be there fully without wanting them to disappear.
Allow yourself to be fully present to the movement of those sensations
Is there any gap or subject/object split between sensing and sensations?
Does there need to be any thought (label) as to whether sensations are good or bad?


Do you know this beautiful poem by Rumi?
"The Guest House."

https://grateful.org/resource/guest-house-rumi/



NATURE EXERCISE

I know that you enjoy going for walks.
Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move your focus your senses, see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours and shapes, smells, and body sensations, all coming and going.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.


With love,

Rowena

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Noro
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Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Noro » Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:10 pm

Hi Anaeli,

Thank you for your response below, it is a pleasure having this guiding conversation with you.
Any comments about this guiding process,
I don't have any specific questions or comments, yet grateful that you have freely offered to guide and facilitate the inquiry process. Thank you.
With love,

Rowena

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Anaeli
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:28 am

Re: Unconditioned Wholeness

Postby Anaeli » Sun Apr 14, 2024 2:45 am

Who or what is it that is needing this understanding.
actually no one
What is happening in direct experience when you say these words? actually nothing
Are you sure that there is actually nothing. We are not looking from a perspective of radical non-duality here.
Looking at this in DE is there not mental activity (thoughts), sound (if saying out loud) and some sensations all happening?
What do the walks and/or sitting quietly reveal as the source from your direct experience?
There is nothing there, yet the source of the sensations constantly comes and goes.
I am not 100% sure that I am understanding what you mean by the source of the sensations.
Is this a looking for a root cause, perhaps some trauma that has yet to be fully embraced ?
There's clearly an arising of deeper feelings, but there is still spaciousness. It could be trauma residuals that are in the process of being integrated.
Do sensations have to have a source in order to arise and be felt?
No, they do not have to have a source.
Yes, and to allow the sensations to be there fully without wanting them to disappear.
Allow yourself to be fully present to the movement of those sensations
Is there any gap or subject/object split between sensing and sensations?
No, there is no subject/object split.
Does there need to be any thought (label) as to whether sensations are good or bad?
Not at all.
Do you know this beautiful poem by Rumi?
"The Guest House."

https://grateful.org/resource/guest-house-rumi/

Yes, there's no resistance, avoidance, or judgement. Pure acceptance and compassion for everything that arises.


NATURE EXERCISE

I know that you enjoy going for walks.
Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move your focus your senses, see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours and shapes, smells, and body sensations, all coming and going.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
No, there is no inside or outside boundary.
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
No, all is one unified whole.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
No, there is no distance.
Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?
there's no separation.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
no.

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.


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