Looking for honesty

[Sadcateta997]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand 'self' to be a constructed safety blanket. I sense that there is something inherently animal in us and that the self is just another survival mechanism we developed through evolution. However, it feels like sometimes it does more harm than good. I feel like my personal suffering stems from.a deep attachment to that safety blanket.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for some kind of guidance and help in clarifying what i experience. I am relatively new to this kind of spiritualism (i previously seeked peace through Islam and philosophical materialism). I started watching various YouTube videos about enlightenment (including Eckart Tolle, Daniel Ingram, fetter work...), which motivated me to start meditating. So far, most of my meditation is about working on maintaining my focus on my attention and allow silence. I feel like I gain tiny drops of insights and a new perspective to see things but lost of the times i don't know if I'm just imagining them or making myself believe something that is not actually there.

So i feel like I could use the help of someone more experienced to question what it needs to be questioned.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the guide to ask specific questions that I would try to answer as honestly as possible. One of the main hindrances i feel getting in the way during my meditations is to find honesty in my experience. It feels like my ego finds the most sneaky ways to get in the way when I do meditation on my own.

So because during a guided conversation I am not taking the lead to orient myself, I expect that it would help in shining a new light on my internal dialogue during fetter work.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I always tended to resort to academia to structure my experience of reality so for a while i was a strong 'believer' of philosophical materialism. However, i dived into Islam for a couple of years in search of a higher purpose, which i didn't find through that religion and it consequently only made me more stuck in a materialistic way to see life and made me turn my head from spirituality.

One year after getting married, my husband got into Buddhism and non-duality and started practicing meditation. At first, i absolutely hated it because it seemed so absurd and backwards. But he continued to talk to me about it and I started to open up to spirituality after my first experience with LSD. On my third experience with meditation during LSD, I had the most powerful experience of my life. I still can't put it into words appropriately. i would describe it as being reborn after totally surrendering to the pain of being alive, which came with the most peaceful feeling of not needing to do anything because everything was already perfect the way it was. However, that experience made me face my "self" and i realized how much of an illusion i am and how many layers of falsehood i live with everyday.

After that experience, I started doing fetter work and meditating daily for 30 min, with the hope of attaining the peace and weightlessness of no self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[LostOntology]

Hello, Sadcateta997

Deep breath! My name is Eden - I’d be happy to guide you.

I was caught within philosophical materialism for a while, too, so I resonate with what you’ve written. The materialists can be very, very compelling, but as you’ve seen (rather than understood), there’s so much more to this than that. It seems like you’ve been searching for quite a while, and in that process, I’m sure you've accumulated so much knowledge. Let’s set that aside for now, yes? Let’s actually look look together rather than trying to accumulate more knowledge. You're right where you need to be.

Disclaimers & FAQ:

• Write your response first in Docs or Word and then copy it over to the site's text editor. It is very common to lose paragraphs of writing due to random site time-outs!
• I passed through the gate at the beginning of this month, so I’m new to guiding (you’ll be the first!). I’m currently under the mentorship of LU veteran, @vinceschubert. He will be helping me guide you. If you feel okay with that, we can begin. If not, I’m sure another guide will scoop you up soon—no hard feelings!
• Please read LU’s disclaimer here: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
• Please read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in LU’s FAQ here: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Agreements together:

• The momentum of inquiry is important. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. I will do the same.
• Please do not hold anything back: what you tell me is what I use to point you. 100% honesty is very important. If you have difficulty expressing anger, fear, guilt or shame, please try your best and we can work from there.
• When answering questions, don’t answer from memory, look into your immediate, direct experience: smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts (not the content of thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
• Throughout this exploration, I would like you to answer all questions that I have written using the quote function: https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ. Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response! I try to color all my questions red, but sometimes I miss some questions!
• Please put aside all other teachings (videos, books, teachers, etc) during this period together. Direct all your focus into the inquiries we’re exploring. If you have a daily meditation practice, I encourage you to continue it, but it’s not necessary for this exploration.

Do these agreements work for you?
By what name shall I call you?
What time zone are you in?

Expectations:
If this feels like a good fit for you, I’d like to start by exploring your expectations around awakening or passing through the gate:
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing right now?

Additionally you said:

I sense that there is something inherently animal in us and that the self is just another survival mechanism we developed through evolution.

Using only Direct Experience, what is that sense?

However, it feels like sometimes it does more harm than good. I feel like my personal suffering stems from.a deep attachment to that safety blanket.

Good. Where is that feeling? What does it feel like? Describe it a bit more.

i would describe it as being reborn after totally surrendering to the pain of being alive, which came with the most peaceful feeling of not needing to do anything because everything was already perfect the way it was.

Beautiful. I'm sure you're familiar with this Alan Watts quote: "If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments like microscopes, telescopes and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, they go away and works on what they have seen." That surrender will take you all the way. How does reading the previous sentence make you feel?

However, that experience made me face my "self" and i realized how much of an illusion i am and how many layers of falsehood i live with everyday.

How did it feel to see this?

Lots of questions :) Take time to respond from your heart rather than your head. Deep breath!

Warmly,
Eden

[Sadcateta997]

Hello Eden. Glad to meet you and thanks for taking me in! :)

Let’s set that aside for now, yes?

Okay, I feel ready to do that.

Do these agreements work for you?

I agree to all agreements!

By what name shall I call you?

You can call me Ayda

What time zone are you in?

I am in GMT time zone

How will life change?

My first thought is that i won’t be as attached to emotions as I am now. In my present experience, I feel like emotions and feelings are directing my experience of life. For example, as I am writing this answer i feel a slight tingling on my chest, which I learnt to identify as stress. It feels like this stress arises everytime i “decide” to do something, and it could be felt more or less strongly depending on the task i’m about to do. So my expectation is to be able to “flow” through life after passing through the gate. Or if life is already flowing, to feel part of that flow.

How will you change?

I dont really know. Maybe i’ll be able to live truly in the moment without the ceaseless narration in the back of my mind. At the moment that narration is hard to stop, in the same way it’s hard to stop breathing. It requires less energy to just let the thoughts rush in and wash me away with them. Also, I hope i will be able to stop feeling “hurt” by life when it doen’t go “my way”. So far, with meditation and being more present in my body, it still feels like I’m somehow gaslighting myself to be okay because I still feel resistance in my body. So my head is saying “life is life, you can’t do anything about it, just accept it”, yet my body is clearly stressed.

What will be different?

To be completely honest, i expect to not have the feeling of needing to do something to fix life.

What is missing right now?

Peace of mind and clarity.

Using only Direct Experience, what is that sense?

It’s the sense that tells me I need to be doing something right now. I feel it mostly in my chest at the moment. That sense also comes with being afraid things are going to go wrong if I’m not doing something.

Where is that feeling? What does it feel like? Describe it a bit more.

In my chest. Right now when I focus on that tightness on my chest I feel like crying for no reason. Other days, when I just go through the day without paying attention to that tightness I don’t necessarily get sad, but I seem to get frustrated and victimized by life. I became very aware of this tightness a couple of days ago during meditation, it felt like I was about to have a panic attack and I could just cry about it, lost in the fear of not knowing how to fix it. I am not sure from where it came, but now (since two days ago) I feel it all day long with different intensities. That’s why I think it has always been there. I don’t know what to do about it.

How does reading the previous sentence make you feel?

Something inside me wants to surrender very badly. But then my thoughts come up saying “okay, how do i do this?” “Am i surrendering right now?” “To what am i supposed to surrender?” “I wish there was a step-by-step tutorial on google about this”

How did it feel to see this?

It felt incredibly liberating. Like breathing very deeply after gasping for air my whole life. It also came with deep sadness; I felt sorry for everyone (including myself) who experienced suffering because of an illusion. But processing those emotions was different. It was like I could intensely feel the emotions but i could let them as easily.

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

Everything is already unfolding. You are right where you need to be.

Disclaimers & FAQ:
Can you confirm that you have read the Disclaimer & FAQ?

Expectations:

How will life change?

My first thought is that i won’t be as attached to emotions as I am now. In my present experience, I feel like emotions and feelings are directing my experience of life … So my expectation is to be able to “flow” through life after passing through the gate. Or if life is already flowing, to feel part of that flow.

This is reasonable, but please understand that seeing through the self is just the beginning. If you are interested in fetter work, detachment from emotions and feelings won’t truly come until the later fetters. The first fetter works mostly with thoughts, so please be sure to keep your expectations at bay.

How will you change?

I dont really know. Maybe i’ll be able to live truly in the moment without the ceaseless narration in the back of my mind. At the moment that narration is hard to stop, in the same way it’s hard to stop breathing. It requires less energy to just let the thoughts rush in and wash me away with them. Also, I hope i will be able to stop feeling “hurt” by life when it doen’t go “my way”. So far, with meditation and being more present in my body, it still feels like I’m somehow gaslighting myself to be okay because I still feel resistance in my body. So my head is saying “life is life, you can’t do anything about it, just accept it”, yet my body is clearly stressed.

Your thoughts will still be with you for quite some time even after seeing through the illusion of self. What we do here is to see that these processes, ALL PROCESSES, are all happening on their own accord, without a self. There is no one controlling, manipulating, or experiencing anything. The "I/me/my" is slapped onto experience after the fact. And even that "I/me/my" process is completely natural and fine. You do not need to get rid of it. You do not need to stop it. Just see it clearly. Here we are talking about freedom WITH, not freedom FROM.

What will be different?

To be completely honest, i expect to not have the feeling of needing to do something to fix life.

Thank you for the honesty. We can work on this, but again, please manage expectations. That “need” is tied to reactivity, which is focused on in the later fetters. Again, we are focused on seeing through the illusion of the self.

What is missing right now?

Peace of mind and clarity.

:)

One thing for you to see, one thing for you to do:

Moon Check 🌙
Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what phase the moon is in. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the moon phase on the weather forecast, check a moon calendar, text your husband and ask him, or: you can simply open the curtains and have a look.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about what looking means. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in this moment.

Please let me know if this is clear for you or if you need further guidance. This is a crucial point.


Direct Experience: Labelling Daily Activities 🔖
Do you know the primary colors: red, blue, and yellow? They are primary because every other color can be created out of them. Purple, for example, is just red and blue. Orange is just yellow and red.

Experiences can be broken down just like colors can. Every experience can be broken down into the six “primaries”: image/color, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply image/color, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these primaries (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and write them down here. Try to break down at least 3 activities.

Questions for you:

For example, as I am writing this answer i feel a slight tingling on my chest, which I learnt to identify as stress.

You said you learned to identify this tingling as stress.
When did you learn to identify it that tingling as stress?
Using Direct Experience, simply see this ‘tingling’. What is it?
Using Direct Experience, simply see this ‘stress’. What is it?

So far, with meditation and being more present in my body, it still feels like I’m somehow gaslighting myself to be okay because I still feel resistance in my body. So my head is saying “life is life, you can’t do anything about it, just accept it”, yet my body is clearly stressed.

You are spiritually bypassing that feeling. Instead of FEELING the feeling (it’s in the name!) you are THINKING that feeling. Feelings are meant to be felt.
Can you see how "life is life" is just a thought?
Can you see how your thoughts of “life is life, just accept it” are actually just trying to divert your attention from that feeling? From the sensations in your body?

Right now when I focus on that tightness on my chest I feel like crying for no reason. Other days, when I just go through the day without paying attention to that tightness I don’t necessarily get sad, but I seem to get frustrated and victimized by life. I became very aware of this tightness a couple of days ago during meditation, it felt like I was about to have a panic attack and I could just cry about it, lost in the fear of not knowing how to fix it. I am not sure from where it came, but now (since two days ago) I feel it all day long with different intensities. That’s why I think it has always been there. I don’t know what to do about it.

When that feeling arises again, please ask yourself: “Can I be in a body that feels this fear?” Answer honestly–with your heart, rather than your head. If the honest answer is “No” then ask: “Can I accept that I cannot be in a body that feels this fear?” and hopefully you can accept that you are overwhelmed. Make space for what is happening now, rather than wishing it away. Suffering comes from the inability to accept what is.

Something inside me wants to surrender very badly. But then my thoughts come up saying “okay, how do i do this?” “Am i surrendering right now?” “To what am i supposed to surrender?” “I wish there was a step-by-step tutorial on google about this”

Haha! I was the same exact way. I kept asking myself "HOW THE HELL DO I SURRENDER?!" You’ve seen those thoughts as thoughts. That’s all they are: thoughts. Every time the mind wanders and you catch yourself sucked into thoughts, let out a small smile. Every. Single. Time. What a joy it is that you have seen thoughts for what they are! If you have a meditation practice where you concentrate on an object, smile every time you realize you are in thoughts rather than concentrating on the object. It’ll feel forced at first, but after a bit, you begin to see the joy in seeing thoughts as thoughts.

It felt incredibly liberating. Like breathing very deeply after gasping for air my whole life. It also came with deep sadness; I felt sorry for everyone (including myself) who experienced suffering because of an illusion. But processing those emotions was different. It was like I could intensely feel the emotions but i could let them as easily.

Wonderful. You’ve had a glimpse, now leave it behind you. Psychedelics are like taking a helicopter to the top of the mountain and then being dropped back off at the bottom. They help you see the destination, but this process helps you to actually climb it.

Lots to do! Best of luck. Try your best to make this as relaxed and effortless as possible.

Warmly,
Eden

[Sadcateta997]

Can you confirm that you have read the Disclaimer & FAQ?

Yes, I confirm.

Just see it clearly. Here we are talking about freedom WITH, not freedom FROM.

Yes! Now I understand better. Thank you for your answers, they are very helpful and provide structure. I will focus on the first fetter alone.

Please let me know if this is clear for you or if you need further guidance. This is a crucial point.

Yes, this is clear.

Try to break down at least 3 activities.

Activity 1: preparing breakfast
- Feeling hungry: sensation
- Looking at the bread warming up on the grill: image
- Thinking about mom: thought
- Washing my hands: sensation
- Deciding what to put on the bread: thoughts
- Eating: taste
- Thinking whether something is a thought or a sensation: thought
- Reading on my phone: image and thought

Activity 2: taking the bus
- Walking: sensation
- Feeling the sun's warmth: sensation
- Hearing the cars driving: sound
- Looking in front of me while walking: image
- Listening to my favorite song: sound
- Feeling happy: sensation, thought
- Sitting waiting for the bus: smell, sound, sensation, image, thought

Activity 3: drawing
- Finding an idea: thought
- Looking at inspiration pictures: image
- Sketching: image, thought

When did you learn to identify it that tingling as stress?

I would say I learnt it 7 years ago, in college, when anxiety attacks were frequent. When that tightness arises or I feel my breath shortening my thoughts tell me that they are anxiety attack symptoms. Another thought arises (I guess simultaneously to the other thought) and it’s a memory of past anxiety attacks (I assume memories are also thoughts?).Then my reasoning concludes that in order for me to feel that tightness I surely must be stressed and that I should do something to prevent a full blown anxiety attack. Writing this I see that the conclusion came from my mind and not from direct experience, so maybe after all I am not stressed…

Using Direct Experience, simply see this ‘tingling’. What is it?

It’s a sensation that I feel in my lungs, at the same rhythm as my breathing. It’s like I can sense the air going in and out of my lungs.

Using Direct Experience, simply see this ‘stress’. What is it?

It’s a thought haha

Can you see how "life is life" is just a thought?

Yes, it’s a thought.

Can you see how your thoughts of “life is life, just accept it” are actually just trying to divert your attention from that feeling? From the sensations in your body?

Yes, I can see it.

“Can I be in a body that feels this fear?”

No.

“Can I accept that I cannot be in a body that feels this fear?”

Yes.

Every time the mind wanders and you catch yourself sucked into thoughts, let out a small smile.

I am answering you at the end of the day (8 PM here) because I wanted to try this out throughout the day. I think I remembered to do it just twice haha. I will continue to try though :)

Thank you Eden for your time and patience. I can already feel the effectiveness of your pointing.

Lots of love,
Ayda

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

Just see it clearly. Here we are talking about freedom WITH, not freedom FROM.

Yes! Now I understand better. Thank you for your answers, they are very helpful and provide structure. I will focus on the first fetter alone.

Wonderful! Please revisit these first few posts every now and again. Often times near the end it is the expectation of what “crossing the gate” might feel like that prevents people from seeing that they are already through (i.e. that they have seen through the illusion of the self).

Please remind yourself of the following throughout this guiding: IF AWAKENING WERE TO HAPPEN, IT WOULD BE JUST THIS. Awakening isn’t a “download” or “transmission” of something in addition to what you are experiencing right now in direct experience. It quite literally HAS to be JUST THIS.

Please let me know if this is clear for you or if you need further guidance. This is a crucial point.

Yes, this is clear.

Yay :) Direct Experience is the only thing that matters for seeing through the self. The contents of thoughts—concepts, stories, memories, etc.—are NOT what will bring you to SEE. Only LOOKING can do that. Let’s have you look at thoughts a bit more. Try to do this next exercise before you read the rest of the stuff written below it.

Mind Labeling Experience 🔖
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience. Experience happens. Thoughts about that experience are just like post-it notes that you "stick" onto experiences.

This exercise takes about 20 minutes and you will need a blank Docs/Word document. You don’t need to post everything you write, just your answers to the questions below!

This exercise is broken into two 10-minute sections. For each 10-minute section pay attention to any bodily sensation. Is there any tightening or any relaxing?

For the first 10 minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair
I am thinking about mom
I am looking at inspiration pictures
I am feeling hungry
I am sketching a picture

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now in the present moment.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. Again, watch what is happening in the body.

For example:

Sitting on a chair
Typing
Breathing
Blinking
Hearing the clock


At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Try to complete the Mind Labelling Experience exercise before reading the following:

I would say I learnt it 7 years ago, in college, when anxiety attacks were frequent. When that tightness arises or I feel my breath shortening my thoughts tell me that they are anxiety attack symptoms. Another thought arises (I guess simultaneously to the other thought) and it’s a memory of past anxiety attacks (I assume memories are also thoughts?).

You are seeing this so clearly, YES! The sensation arises and then thoughts come in to LABEL that sensation ‘stress’. Then ANOTHER thought arises in the form of a memory and attaches itself to the thought that LABELLED that sensation ‘stress’. If you OVERIDENTIFY with your thoughts and see them as YOU, then these thoughts keep coming and coming and coming and may overwhelm. What you are beginning to see, now, is that this label of stress is just a thought and that these memories of the past are just more thoughts. It’s ALL thoughts! Do you see this? How does it feel to see this?

Then my reasoning concludes that in order for me to feel that tightness I surely must be stressed and that I should do something to prevent a full blown anxiety attack.

Let’s take a brief breath here. What is that “reasoning” in Direct Experience?

Using Direct Experience, simply see this ‘tingling’. What is it?

It’s a sensation that I feel in my lungs, at the same rhythm as my breathing. It’s like I can sense the air going in and out of my lungs.

Using Direct Experience, simply see this ‘stress’. What is it?

It’s a thought haha

"Haha" indeed 😌 Isn't that interesting? You've got it. So let's put these two things together and SEE emotions for what they really are: thoughts + sensation. EVERY single emotion has a corresponding sensation as well as a thought that labels it. Try to see this in your daily life.

You said earlier that:

Writing this I see that the conclusion came from my mind and not from direct experience, so maybe after all I am not stressed…

Hmm... interesting, isn't it? You say "Maybe after all I am not stressed..." We've seen that stress is just a label on a sensation, and a label is just a thought. Can you BE a thought? Absolutely not. Not seeing this clearly results in over-identification with the label 'stress', which as you have seen, is only a thought.

The next time that tingling sensation comes up, just feel that sensation without paying attention to any thoughts that may try to label it. Get curious about it and describe it: Is it warm? Is it constrictive? Expansive? How large is the sensation? Is it more overt or subtle?

“Can I be in a body that feels this fear?”

No.

“Can I accept that I cannot be in a body that feels this fear?”

Yes.

Beautiful. Please keep doing this and notice how it FEELS to accept this fear in one form or another.

I know I said to put aside all other materials during the duration of this conversation, but sometimes I will link videos that are very helpful. When you feel like you are in a place where it is okay to look deeper at that fear, please do this guided meditation created by Ilona Cunaite entitled "Letting go of Fear": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE - you don't need to do this before tomorrow. Just when you feel like you are ready.

I am answering you at the end of the day (8 PM here) because I wanted to try this out throughout the day. I think I remembered to do it just twice haha. I will continue to try though :)

I’ll try to answer quickly so that you can read my posts for the next day! I’m about 4 hours behind you. Also: wonderful that you did it TWICE! YAY! I like to see those moments of return as moments of reconnecting with what is actually here rather than what is made up in the contents thoughts.

Thank you Eden for your time and patience. I can already feel the effectiveness of your pointing.

WHAT is feeling the effectiveness?

Remember, try to make this as effortless as possible. Anytime you try to STRAIN to see, or any time you are getting frustrated, take a deep breath. The best way to see this is by relaxing and by doing everything with as little effort as possible.

You are doing wonderfully! It is a joy to see you see!

Warmly,
Eden

[Sadcateta997]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I dont know if i can feel the truth aspect, but the second one feels less heavy somehow, more natural.

2. What is here without labels?

That what is labeled exists before the labels are applied to it and will continue to exist even if it's not labeled. i guess it's happeningness or being

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I’m a bit lost. I think that it just describes it. i am sitting hearing my sister’s loud music (experience) and i’m feeling annoyed at the loud music (experience). So there is just experience but the thought of being annoyed to the music creates a kind of separation between the “me experience” and the rest of experiences.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes. During the second part my body felt more relaxed. I almost fell asleep hehe.

Do you see this? How does it feel to see this?

Yes, I see it. Sometimes more easily than other times. When i can see it I feel reassured and calm. When i don't see it I am more focused on thinking the thoughts and believing them, which feels energy draining.

What is that “reasoning” in Direct Experience?

It’s thoughts, once again

SEE emotions for what they really are: thoughts + sensation.

This feels very powerful, thank you

Get curious about it and describe it

It’s very constrictive. It’s subtle at first, but when I focus on it, it gets amplified. It feels like having a black hole in your chest, and all body energy gets sucked into it. it is warm and can drop to the belly at times. it feels like it has mass and that it’s so loud that it doesn’t let other body sensations be perceived as clearly.

WHAT is feeling the effectiveness?

The illusory self i feel contained in and identified as.

Anytime you try to STRAIN to see, or any time you are getting frustrated, take a deep breath.

A lot of strain today, for some reason 🧐. Like the kind of strain i used to feel in high school during math classes haha.

Lots of love,

Ayda

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

I dont know if i can feel the truth aspect, but the second one feels less heavy somehow, more natural.

Yes, we will take more natural as being more true!

That what is labeled exists before the labels are applied to it and will continue to exist even if it's not labeled. i guess it's happeningness or being

Yes! Everything is already happening without labels being put on them AND will continue to exist without them. The labels–the thoughts about them–are arbitrary.

I’m a bit lost. I think that it just describes it.

That’s right :) They do just describe it.

i am sitting hearing my sister’s loud music (experience) and i’m feeling annoyed at the loud music (experience). So there is just experience but the thought of being annoyed to the music creates a kind of separation between the “me experience” and the rest of experiences.

How big is that separation? What is the distance of the separation between that experience and that “me experience”? How wide is it? What is that separation?

Try this:

Hearing Exercise 🎧

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer be anything other than a concept/idea/label/thought?


Yes. During the second part my body felt more relaxed. I almost fell asleep hehe.
Yes, exactly. That’s because the second part is closer to the truth: there is no YOU seeing, YOU tasting, YOU hearing. There is simply just seeing, tasting, and hearing. There is no 'you', no Ayda. 'You' have no control at all. How does it feel to read this? Any resistance, fear, hesitation?

It’s thoughts, once again

Continue to see that “reasoning” for what it is: just thoughts. Nothing can be answered and solved in thoughts because thoughts create the questions and problems.

This feels very powerful, thank you

Of course–please continue to see this as much as you can.

It’s very constrictive. It’s subtle at first, but when I focus on it, it gets amplified. It feels like having a black hole in your chest, and all body energy gets sucked into it. it is warm and can drop to the belly at times. it feels like it has mass and that it’s so loud that it doesn’t let other body sensations be perceived as clearly.
I'm glad that you are in touch with what the body feels. Can you accept that it is so loud that it doesn’t let other sensations be perceived as clearly? In Direct Experience: is there something FEELING the sensation, or is it simply just a sensation?

The illusory self i feel contained in and identified as.

How are you identified as this illusion?

A lot of strain today, for some reason 🧐. Like the kind of strain i used to feel in high school during math classes haha.

Please know that’s natural and part of the process :) Strain comes at times, but don’t strain to make strain go away! Simply accept that strain is here and relax into it. Plus, you are not controlling any of this, anyway. You have no control at all.

Palm Flipping Exercise 🤲

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I’m looking forward to your response :) Try these exercises for the next couple of days. I’ll be in a place with bad cell-service for the next 2 days. I will try to respond, but even if I don’t respond, PLEASE post every day! It’s important to keep up your momentum. Have you read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, yet? It may be good to begin now if you haven't: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/boo ... ecrashers/

Warmly,
Eden

[Sadcateta997]

How big is that separation? What is the distance of the separation between that experience and that “me experience”? How wide is it? What is that separation?

The separation feels infinite but at the same time it feels like it can be broken with just a small step. The distance is equal to the length of the thought ‘I’. The width is equal to the width of the thought ‘I’. The separation is thoughts taking over the experience. But the thought of ‘I’ feels special: all englobing, infinite, imaginary yet real. I can't begin to grasp it but from direct experience I see that the separation is not a smell, or an image, or a sound, or a sensation, or a taste, so it's a thought.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

No, there is just what can be heard.

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

No, hearing is happening by itself. It is not done by anyone. There is no one allowing or preventing hearing. There is only what can be heard.

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

There is nothing but what can be heard.

What do you find?

An illusory self who is imagining having agency.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer be anything other than a concept/idea/label/thought?

No, things are happening on their own. At first, I was thinking that my ears are being receptors to the sound, so if I didn’t have ears I wouldn’t be hearing. But now I see that’s not the point. Hearing is happening on its own, even if my ears are the body part picking the sound up (which is also happening on its own). There is no proof of an inherent hearer in my direct experience besides the thought of it existing.

How does it feel to read this? Any resistance, fear, hesitation?

I can see it. Rationally and a little bit in my heart. The feeling of self has become hazy, less solid. But it’s still there… I feel resistance in the form of doubt.

Can you accept that it is so loud that it doesn’t let other sensations be perceived as clearly?

Yes, I can drop the negativity thought I attached to it and just let it rest inside me.

In Direct Experience: is there something FEELING the sensation, or is it simply just a sensation?

It’s just a sensation. The ‘I’ that thinks it’s feeling the sensation is just a thought. I can see that the ‘I’ thought is not necessary for stuff to happen. The sensation is going to be felt even with no thought of ‘I’.

How are you identified as this illusion?

By keeping a bunch of thoughts (my name is ayda, i’m a girl, i’m 25 y.o., i’m shy…) present at all times.

How is the movement controlled?

I don’t really know. My hand moves in accordance to how I expect it to move. I see it move and i’m not surprised by it. So I assume I’m controlling it. But at the same time I don’t feel full control over it. For example, I notice my fingers slightly moving but I clearly didn’t give that command.

Does a thought control it?

I don’t think so?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Not in the direct experience

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Each time i read a question I look at my hand and turn it in order to see what happens. But after that first decision it just keeps turning by itself, until I stop it to write.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

hahaha good one. It’s very clear that no one chose.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, i dont see anything . My hands are just turning. Until I get the thought of wanting to stop. But then even that thought has come by itself.

I did the ‘Letting go of Fear’ meditation today. It helped in building acceptance and feeling more open to the heaviness in the chest. As she said, fear is a friend. I can see it protecting a very vulnerable baby self. The only trouble I had is looking for answers when I ask the questions, i dont know what or who should give the answers? Sometimes I give them myself but I’m not sure if i’m doing it right. I am not very preoccupied by it as I learnt that things get clearer with time. It seems that the universe encourages this endeavor.

I will give the book a read tonight!

Thank you very much Eden, and enjoy your weekend!

Lots of love,

Ayda

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

No fancy formatting today—I’m on my phone! :’) keep a lookout for those questions.

I can't begin to grasp it but from direct experience I see that the separation is not a smell, or an image, or a sound, or a sensation, or a taste, so it's a thought.

Yes :) keep seeing this separation for what it is: a thought.

No, there is just what can be heard.

Exactly!

No, hearing is happening by itself. It is not done by anyone. There is no one allowing or preventing hearing. There is only what can be heard.

YES!

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

There is nothing but what can be heard.

That’s all there ever is. Just this. In the seeing just the seen. In the hearing just the heard. It is very simple—effortless.

What do you find?

An illusory self who is imagining having agency.

Can an illusion imagine? Thoughts can’t imagine; they are just thoughts!

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer be anything other than a concept/idea/label/thought?

No, things are happening on their own. At first, I was thinking that my ears are being receptors to the sound, so if I didn’t have ears I wouldn’t be hearing. But now I see that’s not the point. Hearing is happening on its own, even if my ears are the body part picking the sound up (which is also happening on its own). There is no proof of an inherent hearer in my direct experience besides the thought of it existing.

Wonderful. You got it right—the having or not having ears isn’t the point: the hearing happens on its own without a doer.

How does it feel to read this? Any resistance, fear, hesitation?

I can see it. Rationally and a little bit in my heart. The feeling of self has become hazy, less solid. But it’s still there… I feel resistance in the form of doubt.

From the way you have written, it is clear that you have seen it. Keep seeing this. Accept the resistance and accept the doubt. It is very, very simple. Relax into this seeing!

Can you accept that it is so loud that it doesn’t let other sensations be perceived as clearly?

Yes, I can drop the negativity thought I attached to it and just let it rest inside me.

Beautiful :)

In Direct Experience: is there something FEELING the sensation, or is it simply just a sensation?

It’s just a sensation. The ‘I’ that thinks it’s feeling the sensation is just a thought. I can see that the ‘I’ thought is not necessary for stuff to happen. The sensation is going to be felt even with no thought of ‘I’.

How will your life change by seeing that “I” is just a thought and not necessary for stuff to happen? Can you go throughout a day and surrender to stuff happening rather than trying to interject an “I” where it doesn’t need to be? See that things happen without an “I”.

How are you identified as this illusion?

By keeping a bunch of thoughts (my name is ayda, i’m a girl, i’m 25 y.o., i’m shy…) present at all times.

Keep seeing all of these things as what they are: thoughts!

How is the movement controlled?

I don’t really know. My hand moves in accordance to how I expect it to move. I see it move and i’m not surprised by it. So I assume I’m controlling it. But at the same time I don’t feel full control over it. For example, I notice my fingers slightly moving but I clearly didn’t give that command.

Keep doing this! You will see that “decision” is just a thought applied to something AFTER it has already happened.

Does a thought control it?

I don’t think so?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Not in the direct experience

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Each time i read a question I look at my hand and turn it in order to see what happens. But after that first decision it just keeps turning by itself, until I stop it to write.

Exactly :)

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

hahaha good one. It’s very clear that no one chose.

:) you see that clearly because the mind didn’t immediately label that happening as a decision that YOU made! Can you see how SO many things happen even without that decision thought? See if you can apply this in your life. See how your day goes when you take seriously that there is no controller, no doer, just doing.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, i dont see anything . My hands are just turning. Until I get the thought of wanting to stop. But then even that thought has come by itself.

Yes and you have NO control over when thoughts come or what they even are. Thoughts just come.

I did the ‘Letting go of Fear’ meditation today. It helped in building acceptance and feeling more open to the heaviness in the chest. As she said, fear is a friend. I can see it protecting a very vulnerable baby self. The only trouble I had is looking for answers when I ask the questions, i dont know what or who should give the answers? Sometimes I give them myself but I’m not sure if i’m doing it right. I am not very preoccupied by it as I learnt that things get clearer with time. It seems that the universe encourages this endeavor.

I’m glad that helped. You can return to that whenever you want. I myself watched it 4-5 times lol. Beautiful job catching yourself and not being preoccupied with doing things correctly. You are seeing that there is no need to force this process. It is best to try and make it as effortless as possible.

I will give the book a read tonight!

Thank you very much Eden, and enjoy your weekend!

Of course :) take your time with these pointers and exercises. Keep working on seeing and then focusing on how it FEELS to see through the illusion of the self.

Warmly,
Eden

[LostOntology]

One more thing—too beautiful to not mention:

It seems that the universe encourages this endeavor.

Beautiful, isn’t it? All that you need to do is constantly surrender to this. It’s written in my signature, but it is worth repeating to you here now, since you are seeing it:

What you seek is seeking you.

There is no need to strain—you are exactly where you need to be.

[Sadcateta997]

How will your life change by seeing that “I” is just a thought and not necessary for stuff to happen? Can you go throughout a day and surrender to stuff happening rather than trying to interject an “I” where it doesn’t need to be? See that things happen without an “I”.

Life won’t change. I can see that everything I do happens on its own. When I stop and ask myself who decided to do this I can’t see anyone. This makes me remember something my husband used to point out: when we talk we are hearing what we are saying for the first time as we say it. I guess it turns out it’s like that for everything else. What a strange phenomenon. But how sticky is this sense of self. If there is no self, what am I, the one feeling the sense of self? Why do I feel this body’s sensations and not other bodies? Is the sense of self just a byproduct of having a brain? I can’t fit the puzzle pieces together. I can feel that there is no doer but then what am I? Where do I fit in all of this? I am so desperate and curious to know the answer, so sometimes i find myself in a constant state of anticipation, second-guessing.

Who is hearing? No one, there is just what is heard
Who is feeling the sense of self? No one, there is just the sense of self
But there is something that is constantly there, what is that?
What is this need to latch onto something, a solid point of reference?
It’s like I refuse to exist if i’m not contained in a concept. Something i can look back to and check that is going as expected.

I am thinking: if i’m not a self then i’m awareness or consciousness or or… call it whatever you want BUT I WANT TO BE SOMETHING. Yet all of this is just more thoughts. What a conundrum.

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

Life won’t change. I can see that everything I do happens on its own. When I stop and ask myself who decided to do this I can’t see anyone. This makes me remember something my husband used to point out: when we talk we are hearing what we are saying for the first time as we say it. I guess it turns out it’s like that for everything else. What a strange phenomenon.

Everything does happen on its own! There is no decider, no chooser, no doer. I like that pointer on talking. There is no "I" talking, just talking and hearing. It's strange, isn't it? Try seeing this in other people, as well!

But how sticky is this sense of self. If there is no self, what am I, the one feeling the sense of self? Why do I feel this body’s sensations and not other bodies? Is the sense of self just a byproduct of having a brain?

What is that "sense of self" in direct experience?

Body Exercise 👤
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

I can’t fit the puzzle pieces together. I can feel that there is no doer but then what am I? Where do I fit in all of this? I am so desperate and curious to know the answer, so sometimes i find myself in a constant state of anticipation, second-guessing.

Who is asking? Who is wanting to know? Questions may arise, but they are all products of our ideas and understandings--neither of which hold up to the truth of direct experience. Rest in the unknowing, the mystery, the indescribable, the extralinguistic - which is not some separate state - it is literally just this experience right now as it is. There is no way to solve confusion and to satisfy the constant need to understand. Confusion and the need to understand are products of the world of thought. I hope you see that the problems only begin to arise when you step back into the realm of thoughts. Calm is already here--it is always here, immediately accessible.

What is here now, when there is no problem to solve? Can you rest into that? Trust that? Can we scrap our illusory thought world and go straight to direct experience and let it speak for itself, without labels or conceptual understanding?

But there is something that is constantly there, what is that?
What is this need to latch onto something, a solid point of reference?
It’s like I refuse to exist if i’m not contained in a concept. Something i can look back to and check that is going as expected.

Is there any word, concept, or idea that would satisfy that need to conceptually know? Can any word, concept, idea, or understanding even begin to accurately grasp at what is in your direct experience? What does it mean to be contained within a concept? What would that "I" look back to? When you "hear" a thought in your mind, who hears?

Also, please remember that at this point we are just trying to see through the illusion of the self! The thoughts will still be there! From earlier in this thread:

Your thoughts will still be with you for quite some time even after seeing through the illusion of self. What we do here is to see that these processes, ALL PROCESSES, are all happening on their own accord, without a self. There is no one controlling, manipulating, or experiencing anything. The "I/me/my" is slapped onto experience after the fact. And even that "I/me/my" process is completely natural and fine. You do not need to get rid of it. You do not need to stop it. Just see it clearly. Here we are talking about freedom WITH, not freedom FROM.

I am thinking: if i’m not a self then i’m awareness or consciousness or or… call it whatever you want BUT I WANT TO BE SOMETHING.

You say you want to be something, but have you ever been anything? Is there an "I" to be, or is there simply just... being? Can *YOU* BE awareness? Or is there just this awareness? Remember: the point isn't to answer these questions correctly. I am simply pointing at something. No need to look at my finger, just see what it is pointing to.

Yet all of this is just more thoughts. What a conundrum.

You see :) Thoughts are just a hall of mirrors that give the illusion of depth. The conundrum begins when you step into the hall of mirrors! These questions can never be solved, only dissolved. Here's another metaphor from Adyashanti: "Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage." Vince, another LU guide, puts it in more succinct terms: "All your thoughts are shit."

Without thoughts, there is nothing wrong.

No problem to solve.

Just this :)

Warmly,
Eden

[Sadcateta997]

What is that "sense of self" in direct experience?

It’s a thought. A very subtle, hard to discern thought.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No

Is there an inside or an outside?

No

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

I feel no inside

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I feel no outside

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It refers to the sensations ocurring. I see there isn’t a body the sensations are happening to. It’s just the sensations, the smells, the sounds…

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There are just sensations arising. No body to be found.

Who is asking? Who is wanting to know?

There is no proof of anyone asking in my direct experience. Just the question arising and thoughts rushing their way.

I hope you see that the problems only begin to arise when you step back into the realm of thoughts. Calm is already here--it is always here, immediately accessible.

Yes, that is exactly what happens. Calmness happens, then thoughts attack. I see them for what they are, just thoughts. And then calmness is here again. Rinse and repeat.

What is here now, when there is no problem to solve? Can you rest into that? Trust that? Can we scrap our illusory thought world and go straight to direct experience and let it speak for itself, without labels or conceptual understanding?

There are sensations, smells, sounds, images. Yes, I can rest into them and trust them. Direct experience happens on its own and it’s clearer than the conceptual understanding.

Is there any word, concept, or idea that would satisfy that need to conceptually know? Can any word, concept, idea, or understanding even begin to accurately grasp at what is in your direct experience? What does it mean to be contained within a concept? What would that "I" look back to? When you "hear" a thought in your mind, who hears?

I don’t think there is. Conceptually knowing belongs in a different realm than that of direct experience. So no concept can describe direct experience. Being contained within a concept doesn’t mean anything, it’s pure fantasy. There is nothing to look back to and no one that hears thoughts. I dont find any reasons to hold into an idea of self. This is all there is. I can rest with that for now.

Here we are talking about freedom WITH, not freedom FROM.

When I first read this couple of days ago I didn’t really get this. Now I start to see it.

You say you want to be something, but have you ever been anything? Is there an "I" to be, or is there simply just... being? Can *YOU* BE awareness? Or is there just this awareness?

No I never was something. There is just being. While meditating on this today a very familiar feeling from childhood came. Existing, it’s what has always been.

These questions can never be solved, only dissolved.

Yes! That’s what if feels like.

Without thoughts, there is nothing wrong.

Yes! Even doubt resides In thought, and when I see it for what it is I can find calmness again.


Now the expression of the gateless gate makes sense. There is just this. Any expectation for a dramatic enlightenment experience is just a thought. I will keep observing this and the doubt that comes with it.

Also, i’m finding the book so interesting! It feels nice to relate to others.

Lots of love,

Ayda

[LostOntology]

Ayda,

What is that "sense of self" in direct experience?

It’s a thought. A very subtle, hard to discern thought.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No

Is there an inside or an outside?

No

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

I feel no inside

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I feel no outside

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It refers to the sensations ocurring. I see there isn’t a body the sensations are happening to. It’s just the sensations, the smells, the sounds…

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There are just sensations arising. No body to be found.

Who is asking? Who is wanting to know?

There is no proof of anyone asking in my direct experience. Just the question arising and thoughts rushing their way.

Yes, exactly, Ayda. Just more sensations. Just more thoughts. That's all it is.

I hope you see that the problems only begin to arise when you step back into the realm of thoughts. Calm is already here--it is always here, immediately accessible.

Yes, that is exactly what happens. Calmness happens, then thoughts attack. I see them for what they are, just thoughts. And then calmness is here again. Rinse and repeat.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. You can always return to that calmness. With enough rinsing and repeating you will begin to naturally rest in this calm.

What is here now, when there is no problem to solve? Can you rest into that? Trust that? Can we scrap our illusory thought world and go straight to direct experience and let it speak for itself, without labels or conceptual understanding?

There are sensations, smells, sounds, images. Yes, I can rest into them and trust them. Direct experience happens on its own and it’s clearer than the conceptual understanding.

It is indeed clearer than conceptual understanding, yet the allure of the realm of thoughts is so strong and we are so used to engaging! Just catch yourself and be grateful that you caught yourself and now have an opportunity to return to your body and the rest of experience.

Is there any word, concept, or idea that would satisfy that need to conceptually know? Can any word, concept, idea, or understanding even begin to accurately grasp at what is in your direct experience? What does it mean to be contained within a concept? What would that "I" look back to? When you "hear" a thought in your mind, who hears?

I don’t think there is. Conceptually knowing belongs in a different realm than that of direct experience. So no concept can describe direct experience. Being contained within a concept doesn’t mean anything, it’s pure fantasy. There is nothing to look back to and no one that hears thoughts. I dont find any reasons to hold into an idea of self. This is all there is. I can rest with that for now.

Pure fantasy indeed :) Nobody to hear. This is all there is.

Here we are talking about freedom WITH, not freedom FROM.

When I first read this couple of days ago I didn’t really get this. Now I start to see it.

This process is very hermeneutical; it is not linear. You experience something and see. From that seeing you get an insight. You have that insight now and then you experience something, which helps you see some more. From that seeing you get another insight. You have that insight now and then you... It's not linear. It keeps building on itself! You will find yourself going back to things that you did not understand before and then finally understanding them after you've gained enough insight. It's a beautiful unravelling.

You say you want to be something, but have you ever been anything? Is there an "I" to be, or is there simply just... being? Can *YOU* BE awareness? Or is there just this awareness?

No I never was something. There is just being. While meditating on this today a very familiar feeling from childhood came. Existing, it’s what has always been.

I could not help but smile reading this. These "selves" had to be created over time. This inner peace has been hidden due to illusory layer upon illusory layer being added on top of it. I think that the reason it feels so familiar is because the last time we felt that feeling was childhood--before we started believing in a separate self.

These questions can never be solved, only dissolved.

Yes! That’s what if feels like.

:)

Without thoughts, there is nothing wrong.

Yes! Even doubt resides In thought, and when I see it for what it is I can find calmness again.

Beautiful. If you want, you may continue in the fetter work and work on the second fetter, which is doubt. The second fetter is an incredibly powerful fetter to work on, and diligence in working on the second will help the later fetters fall easier. The first fetter deals more with identification with thoughts while the second fetter can be seen as working more with identification with feelings.

Now the expression of the gateless gate makes sense. There is just this. Any expectation for a dramatic enlightenment experience is just a thought. I will keep observing this and the doubt that comes with it.

Also, i’m finding the book so interesting! It feels nice to relate to others.

Exactly :) There's just this, Ayda! There's no drama, no fireworks. Just this. How could it be anything other than this?

From what I have read, you have clearly seen through the self. I would recommend you read this thread again, from the top. Some days you will see clearly, and during other days, the selfing may be in full force. That's a natural part of this process. Is there anything else you would like to work on in relation to the illusion of the self? Remember: there is no rush. I'll be here with you until the end.

Final Questions

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?