Simple not Simple

[Mimimimi]

Some how submit was engaged before I was finished the thread .
I will resend the finished version next
sorry

[Mimimimi]

Ok here's the completed version!


Good afternnon!
Great meeting last night

Yes it was. It's a shame that your internet connection kept breaking up.

That's okay.Thought arrived that said it may have been for the best.

Ah, excellent. You not only see that sensation are involved, but you see that it is the labelling of them that shapes behavior.

You know, I get the feeling that I am telling you stuff that you already know...

Yes already know but labrador brain sees a squirrel and chases daydreams,past memories and future solutions so it needs a dog whistle to call it back and focus on finding the duck.

So here we can be open to new responses.
The old way was to DO something to escape unpleasant emotions. Now by simply recognizing their presence they will change.
No intention. No choice. No decisions. Just watching (with good humor) is enough.

Yes I will continue this investgation and thanks for clarifying it.

Language makes "doubt" sound like it is a thing, but what is it really?

More thoughts and opinions and trying to escape unpleasant emotions and body sensations.

I get it! Apparent paradox' Don't do doing. This all appears to be goal-oriented, but it isn't.
If we conceptualize this, then these words are meant to stimulate the arising of intention. ..and intention is one of the conditions that might contribute to a happening.
If an intention arises to be a certain way and it happens or doesn't happen, the response is the same. Continue watching.
No opinions about it (unless one happens, then no opinion about that opinion - unless it does, then no opinion about that...)
Nothing is required. We can't control anything so a requirement is frustration material. Even just watching is not a requirement. It's an offering that might or might not be integrated.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by an intention arising.Do you mean when doingness or trying-ness arises as effort ,and whatever has been tried appears to happen or not happen,have the same reponses of just watching? Then observe the opinions /judgements as they come ....and just see what happens ad infinitum?

Many thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

Yes already know but labrador brain sees a squirrel and chases daydreams,past memories and future solutions so it needs a dog whistle to call it back and focus on finding the duck.S

OK, don't think that bringing it back is the answer to anything. We mustn't look past what is close here.
Let the chasing happen. Watch it with humor.
Simply recognizing that it is happening is the goal. (I know that it may seem insufficient, but try it and see)

I am not sure I understand what you mean by an intention arising

An intention is a thought (stream) about doing something with a purpose. Looking for a specific outcome.
We've been conditioned to be goal oriented. Intention is frequently involved in the delusion of control.
What I am pointing to is that these thought streams happen. We don't actually make them happen, but triggers from circumstances often provoke them.

Then observe the opinions /judgements as they come ....and just see what happens ad infinitum?

yes, but ad infinitum isn't accurate. Once the old maladaptive habit has gone, there's no need to DO this with intent.

vince

[Mimimimi]

Good Afternoon Vince

OK, don't think that bringing it back is the answer to anything. We mustn't look past what is close here.
Let the chasing happen. Watch it with humor.
Simply recognizing that it is happening is the goal. (I know that it may seem insufficient, but try it and see)

It doesn't seem insufficent but at times difficult due to intense body sensations that are labeled as resistence/fear. Recognize the body sensations the same way as the mind chasing I assume?

An intention is a thought (stream) about doing something with a purpose. Looking for a specific outcome.
We've been conditioned to be goal oriented. Intention is frequently involved in the delusion of control.
What I am pointing to is that these thought streams happen. We don't actually make them happen, but triggers from circumstances often provoke them.

So just recognize the happenings of thought stream body sensations etc .This recognition should be the only thing that needs "doing" ...a temporary intent? Once the habits,beleifs etc subside this intent is also drops away?

Thanks

love
Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

at times difficult due to intense body sensations that are labeled as resistence/fear.

Recognition that 'something' is happening is the key. With the really intense stuff we get easily overwhelmed, but it passes. If recognition happens after the event, that's ok.
We can be sure that there is a story behind all of the sensations that come from mind. We don't need to find that story. Just knowing that there is one is enough.
So, some story buried deeply is triggered and the intense sensations arise. What do we do next? (rhetorical question) We do something to divert from the unpleasantness.
When we get a little practised at recognizing the sequence of events, we are in a position to stay with the unpleasant sensation. If we can do this, we may recognize that the sensations are just sensations until we label them as something that we want to end. Investigating the sensation's position, intensity, flavor, etc without attempting to escape, will sometimes allow the story to surface, but if it doesn't that's ok too. It will weaken just with the light of examination.
Notice here that we don't have the runaway thoughts. If they occur, then recognize that this is also an attempt to avoid the unpleasant sensations. They are no longer needed. We aren't trying to escape any more.
We even go as far as to welcome any shit that happens as an opportunity to do the above..

So just recognize the happenings of thought stream body sensations etc .This recognition should be the only thing that needs "doing" ...a temporary intent? Once the habits,beleifs etc subside this intent is also drops away?

Yes, you got it. Celebrate that recognition. It's key!

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Good evening Vince,

Notice here that we don't have the runaway thoughts. If they occur, then recognize that this is also an attempt to avoid the unpleasant sensations. They are no longer needed. We aren't trying to escape any more.
We even go as far as to welcome any shit that happens as an opportunity to do the above..

The runaway thoughts continue with “intense” body sensations but staying with sensations. Today the body had a field day shaking shuddering etc . No resistance and tried not to label, accepting only, but it felt like I was resisting the thought stories( not the body sensations) as in: not exactly negating the thoughts but maybe “trying” to neutralise them. Continued for awhile.. intense sensations subsided.. bits coming up currently but recognising and no escape plan currently.

Yes welcoming shit happening is an opportunity. Yes, you got it. Celebrate that recognition. It's key!

Yes

Thanks

love
Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

but recognising and no escape plan currently.

this sounds good.

but it felt like I was resisting the thought stories

This needs examination.
These happenings are what we need to watch without opinion about them.
Because we don't control it, what is happening is what is. So we don't label it at all (unless labelling happens)
If resisting happens, then that is what is.
Are you getting my drift?
Whatever is happening is what is.
So even if we talk like we are moving to something different, it is not because that is our focus. Our focus is on what is.
If resisting is happening, then examination will reveal what was not apparent before.
What does resistance feel like? (no theory or stories about it) Where do we feel it? What thoughts are involved? etc...

Today the body had a field day shaking shuddering etc

Do you have ideas what this is about?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Good evening Vince

Our focus is on what is.
If resisting is happening, then examination will reveal what was not apparent before.
What does resistance feel like? (no theory or stories about it) Where do we feel it? What thoughts are involved? etc...

When there is examination of a feeling, a thought of where I feel the sensation/ contraction arises and then as I examine there is a scanning of the sensations with thoughts … letting thoughts be part of sensing and coming to a non specified place in the body… then sensations just felt like energy moving . No story no label no specific place in the body but still feeling like there was energy just in the body “borders”. the “body”energy sort of slowed down and seeing and hearing felt more open.



“Today the body had a field day shaking shuddering etc”

Do you have ideas what this is about?

Hmmm I used to get the intense movements a few months ago and lie down with lots of allowing , feeling peace and equanimity after this subsided. Sort of walking on air when I got up.. this would last usually until an outer circumstance appeared which could be described as challenging. Then the peace bubble sort of popped…Yesterday was a similar experience , lots of allowing , some thoughts coming and going.No peace bubble and a few more episodes that were lesser through the day… and then after those sensations had cáusele joy I have no idea what it’s about, others have said many theories or just tell me to ignore it after it happens. All I can say it it appears very strong when it starts and the movement feels uncontrollable (when I allow it,not frightening or anything ) and feels like releasing happened when it subsides

Thank you

love

Judi

[Mimimimi]

Good evening Vince

Our focus is on what is.
If resisting is happening, then examination will reveal what was not apparent before.
What does resistance feel like? (no theory or stories about it) Where do we feel it? What thoughts are involved? etc...

When there is examination of a feeling, a thought of where I feel the sensation/ contraction arises and then as I examine there is a scanning of the sensations with thoughts … letting thoughts be part of sensing and coming to a non specified place in the body… then sensations just felt like energy moving . No story no label no specific place in the body but still feeling like there was energy just in the body “borders”. the “body”energy sort of slowed down and seeing and hearing felt more open.



“Today the body had a field day shaking shuddering etc”

Do you have ideas what this is about?

Hmmm I used to get the intense movements a few months ago and lie down with lots of allowing , feeling peace and equanimity after this subsided. Sort of walking on air when I got up.. this would last usually until an outer circumstance appeared which could be described as challenging. Then the peace bubble sort of popped…Yesterday was a similar experience , lots of allowing , some thoughts coming and going.No peace bubble and a few more episodes that were lesser through the day… and then after those sensations had causeless joy. I have no idea what it’s about, others have said many theories or just tell me to ignore it after it happens. All I can say it it appears very strong when it starts and the movement feels uncontrollable (when I allow it,not frightening or anything ) and feels like releasing happens when it subsides

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

and feels like releasing happens when it subsides

Of course, i can only imagine what is behind it, but it sounds very much like what many animals do when they get stressed. The shake it off.
Your words "feels like releasing" add to this idea.
Regardless I feel that it is a good thing. Don't ignore it, but be interested. Be in discovery mode.

then sensations just felt like energy moving . No story no label no specific place in the body but still feeling like there was energy just in the body “borders”. the “body”energy sort of slowed down and seeing and hearing felt more open.

I like this too.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Good Afternoon Vince

Of course, i can only imagine what is behind it, but it sounds very much like what many animals do when they get stressed. The shake it off.
Your words "feels like releasing" add to this idea.
Regardless I feel that it is a good thing. Don't ignore it, but be interested. Be in discovery mode.

Well I can't ignore when it happens anyway.It seems to happen on it's own.I don't try and make it happen or anything..I don't recreate or build any stories around it...if a story comes I don't say oh yes that's it!.There may be a belief attached to it or a few belefs attached that I am not aware of.It's the sensation afterwards that can only be descrbed by the word release.I have no way of knowing what it is.
Today is about effortness.Everything seems like effortness and trying to get away from what is.Like "I should meditate".... effortness.I will feel more open if I do ...Effortness to a goal or ideal...also feels like waiting but would prefer waiting without actually waiting...Allowing even seems like efforting!

I think I need to go back a few emails to just recognising what's appearing! Recognising judgements/opinions recognising trying to change what is,recognising the belief there is a self controling the what is.

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

I think I need to go back a few emails to just recognising what's appearing! Recognising judgements/opinions recognising trying to change what is, recognising the belief there is a self controlling the what is.

I hope that you have the same trust in intuition as I do. The fact that this thought stream happened, for me it holds a "I'm useful" flag. Do it...

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Good evening Vince,

I hope that you have the same trust in intuition as I do. The fact that this thought stream happened, for me it holds a "I'm useful" flag. Do it…

There was a discussion in one of the Sunday chats at one point that talked about the body
knowingness and intuition . But a question arose after that ..Can thought induced sensations or trigger induced sensations mask as body knowingness or intuition and the versa… when one is not firmly established in the realisation of no controller no doer can appearances seem to be body knowingness but are really thought/fear induced sensations?

Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

thought induced sensations or trigger induced sensations mask as body knowingness or intuition and the versa…

Good point. At this stage, it is probably better to see all sensations as mind induced.
From this perspective it's easier to see the workings of thought.
Once established in that recognition, the subtle difference is revealed.
Having said that there will be times when intuition is really obvious. Like useful thoughts, it will flag itself.
99% of the time, it's (engagement with) thoughts that will lead to suffering.
Recognizing them allows non-engagement with them.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hello Vince ,

At this stage, it is probably better to see all sensations as mind induced

I sense that some sensations appear as thought induced and some appear as just sensations with a thought afterwards…then there is no identification with the after thought. But. Perception can be filtered without noticing…subconscious’s thoughts can be image based or so rapid that they are not noticed…A visual or auditory or body sensation is felt and there is an image or rapid thought that has already indentified with the sensation but not noticed and identity or meaning has attached to the sensation.There are pure sensations,there are sensations that have a non verbal unnoticed thought attached to it and sensations that have an obvious thought after which then can be noticed and ignored…so regardless of this process just assume all sensations are thought induced? Make it simpler?

Having said that there will be times when intuition is really obvious. Like useful thoughts, it will flag itself.

Yes usually the useful flag thoughts have no other thoughts afterwards, no back and forth engagement with the thought and action or non action just happens.
I do find that allowing sensations to remain where they are regardless (whether there is a label attached or not ) helpful
Thanks

love

Judi