Queued up for guidance

[warissem]

Hi Richard

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what is the color of the sky right now, you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember the color of the sky, and you can probably tell me what color you think it is.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at the sky and tell me what color it is.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking : the last alternative.

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts are used to communicate.

Best for you

Warissem

[ozymandias]

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts are used to communicate.


Warissem

Please accept my apology for the long lapse. The Holidays and family drama contributed to the long delay. It is obvious that is very important to continue this conversation.

Direct experience is the basis of knowledge. What should be done with this truth?

Your post did not contain any questions other than the example, "What color is the sky?" Just for fun, here is the current experiential answer. It is 5:30 pm and the sky is black.

[warissem]

Hi Richard

Glad to see you again. There is an investigation for you to begin with.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Give answers to each question and elaborate a little.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Best for you

Warissem

[ozymandias]

Where are they coming from and going to?

Many thoughts are related to unconscious needs and worries (post-facto analysis). Some thoughts are reactive to the environment. Many are related to the body. All other thoughts seem random.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

During the quite sitting, no. If a memry is consciously invoked than it will show up in mind briefly. However, the thoughts afterwards soon become random or reactive.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Aside from invoking a memory, no.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

[warissem]

Hi Richard

Aside from invoking a memory, no.

A memory is made of thoughts : can a thought (a memory) be seen before it appears ?

Is there a you, someone, invoking a memory ?

Are you a thinker of thoughts?

Ponder on each question and elaborate on the answers.

Warissem

[ozymandias]

A memory is made of thoughts : can a thought (a memory) be seen before it appears ?

No

Is there a you, someone, invoking a memory ?

This can happen: a thought, a memory arises in the moment. Example, of a person. There is witnessing, somehow recorded. This is quickly followed by a desire for more memories, more thoughts about that person. Then such thoughts of the past arise for a short period of time.
Did I invoke the memory? I don't think that is possible. What mechanism does one use to invoke a memory? (Sounds of me trying to invoke a memory; Ugh, tug, grunt!) It all happens so fast that there just is not time for any 'me' in there! However, such phenomena occur and are witnessed.
But what is witnessing? Did I witness the thoughts and memories? I don't think so, it just happened. It happens so fast. It seems to happen automatically, perhaps physiologically. These processes occur so fast that there is no time for anyone's volition. It just happens. There seem to be some patterns going on, the thoughts often are related. So to simplify; thoughts arise, memories arise, there is witnessing. There is awareness of this.

Are you a thinker of thoughts?

No. The thoughts arise and are witnessed so quickly that there is no room for any 'me' actions. These things just arise in awareness. They seem to have internal connection. A thought can be witnessed that is related to something happening externally. This thought can trigger the retrieval of more thoughts related to the first. Again, it all happens so fast, there is no time for a 'me' to act. Thoughts and witnessing occur and trigger other thoughts about the connection and relationship of these various thoughts. There seems to be some mechanism, very fast and out of my volition, that invokes thoughts. This mechanism seems to be programmed to invoke thoughts, perhaps it has an evolutionary value. This mechanism automatically invokes new thoughts based on previous thoughts or environmental events. I seem to be describing the Sankya / Vedanta part of mind called Manas. That which invokes thoughts, memories and the working white=board in the mind. However, the 'I' has no control over this, things just appear in awareness. As the lungs know how to breathe, the 'Manas' knows how to chug along providing a stream of thoughts.

[warissem]

Hi Richard

Good observations and comments. There is an exercise for you.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Place two different drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Good looking

Warissem

[ozymandias]

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They appeared by themselves.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They popped up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

The choosing occurs silently and not because of my volition. Some sort of subconscious mechanism is making the decision. Awareness only witnesses the result as a thought. This corresponds to the Sankya/Vendanta concept of the bhuddhi part of mind.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Some subconscious mechanism of mind made the decision. Volition was not a part of it. Upon reading the exercise a command or desire was created in the mind to do the exercise and physically prepare the two drinks. The qualities of the two showed up silently, the preference showed up silently, the choice was made subconsciously.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

No. The feeling is used as input by the subconscious mechanism of choice.

[warissem]

Hi Richard

Good observations.

What is coming up when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.

Best for you

Warissem

[ozymandias]

What is coming up when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.

This is not experienced. There is an experience of a separate self. There is an experience of a separate form, a physical body. There is the experience of the duration of this separate self.

[warissem]

Good morning

There is an experience of a separate self.

Would you describe this experience ?

There is an experience of a separate form, a physical body.

Yes, objects are apparently separate from each other.

There is the experience of the duration of this separate self.

Is there yesterday outside of thoughts?
Is there tomorrow outside of thoughts ?
You can ask the same questions for a moment ago or a moment in the future.

Ponder on each question.

Warissem

[ozymandias]

There is an experience of a separate self.
Would you describe this experience ?

I will describe two experiences; one experience in normal life mode and one experience when there is the practice of being open, being in the moment.

Normal life mode: All sensory input is being scanned for negative or positive implications. There is a vigilant animal always watching. This animal responds to sensory input including thoughts with desires or aversions. All sensory input is coming from 'other' including body sensations. The being must be protected.

Being open, being present mode: Sensory input flows in and attention flows out. Input resonates in the heart and body and is delightful. There still is a separate being, but it is surrounded by the flow of isness/being that is constantly moving and changing. The watcher, the one that is aware seems to be made of the same stuff as the surrounding flow of being but is still separate. It is aware, it is unmoving, but is feels separate.

Is there yesterday outside of thoughts?

No. When open and in the present there is only the infinite, moving and immense present moment.

Is there tomorrow outside of thoughts ?

No.

[warissem]

Hi Richard

Here is an exercise to practice Looking at direct experience. I would like you to do it as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Warissem

[ozymandias]

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Here are some experiences. Is this the correct way to practice?
Seeing a wash rag, simply = image/color
Smelling a wash rag, simply = smell
Feeling the texture of a wash rag, simply = sensation
Tasting the wash rag, simply - taste
Hearing the movement of the wash rag, simply = sound
Thought about touching wash rag, simply = thought

Seeing sidewalk while walking, simply = image/color
Smelling outside air while walking, simply = smell
Feeling the air while walking, simply = sensation
Tasting the air while walking, simply = taste
Hearing while walking, simply = sound
Thought about walking, simply = thought

Seeing doctor's office, simply = image/color
Smelling doctor's office, simply = smell
Feeling stitches being removed = sensation
Tasting mouth while in doctor's office, simply = taste
Hearing while stitches being removed, simply = sound
Thought about doctor's office, simply = thought

This practice is different than just being mindful. It reduces a moment in time to just simple sensations. It removes narration from awareness.

[warissem]

Hi Richard

You have done good observations.

This is an investigation of the body :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Ponder on each question when you are looking and give separate answers.

Best wishes

Warissem