How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:27 pm

I am having a lot of thought activity, which makes it hard concentrating on the exercises.

I'm not managing to focus on my "heart" (in the right side of my chest) for more than a few seconds at a time either. That is what Ilona suggested I do as a meditation

I keep trying to go back to direct experience, or to trying to feel into the questions about a separate self, but again there are various thoughts butting in and dragging me off into their storylines. Sometimes it seems I don't experience directly for a couple of hours, except the actions filtered through concepts and labels.

I haven't found a separate self, but there it still seems I am conscious of experience from somewhere, perceived from vaguely around the centre of my head, as a kind of fuzzy cloud.

Now I have worked out with thoughts that even if I am a neutral witnessing self residing within my body, or connected through it, this self could not be separate:

It would have to be dependent on bodily processes to keep it fixed in the body, and those processes are inextricably linked to the world around me.

So now I have thought it out I just have to SEE it.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:39 pm

You may be trying too hard. You have to be relaxed in order to see. If you are tense and struggling and making a lot of effort it will never work.

Relax and just let the thoughts flow by like water.

Can you do that?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:08 pm

Relax and just let the thoughts flow by like water.

Can you do that?
Yes I can, Stacy.

Thank you 😃

User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:29 pm

I have been more collected today doing meditation and trying to be aware of my experience.
Also I have nearly finished the "Gateless Gatecrashers " book.
Do you think I should buy the "Liberation Unleashed " book too?
I listened to some of the Enlightening Quotes from it and they seem very insightful.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:58 am

Hi,

Good. Up to you whether you want more stories of waking up. Did you notice where each client shifted?

Here's Headless Way to try:

https://youtu.be/sdwBPPfuo50

Loving,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:36 pm

Hi Stacy,

I have been looking a lot today in spite of feeling flat and tired and uninspired. I did the labelling exercise to try and ground myself.

I think I am relaxing more at looking too. The hardest time to remember it is when I am in a conversation.

There is not a great deal more seeing though.

If I try to see as though I have no head it is easier to do while sitting still. If I turn my "head" or walk about I don't manage to see the world as though it is moving within me rather than I in it.

I have been doing bumchair too. I noticed how weird it is that the sensation of sitting can appear to be a solid object in itself. So instead of dissolving separation, it separates off in a different way.

And I finished reading "Gateless Gatecrashers"
Up to you whether you want more stories of waking up. Did you notice where each client shifted?
Looking back through the stories, it seems a few people had a shift after they were asked to look into the feeling of what was holding them back. For others it was when they were asked where is the "I", or who is controlling thoughts, but for several of them I couldn't tell what had provoked the shift, or even when it had taken place.

I noticed several of them referenced Ilona's and Elena's blogs, so I am going to see if they are still accessible.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:44 am

You're doing fine.

Yes, keep relaxing. Keep practicing ButtChair & any other pointer you like.

Do you find any fears?


Only fear & expectations can keep you from seeing here & now.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:47 pm

Do you find any fears?


The biggest thing I am afraid of if I see the non-existence of myself is that my girlfriend might split up with me.
That seems ironic, because it is fear of non-separation causing a separation.
My girlfriend is a Christian though, and the plan was for me to become a Christian again and us finding a church to go to. I know some people who have become liberated are still Christians.
She doesn't really know what goes on in Liberation Unleashed. When I told her about it, she was worried I had joined a cult.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:18 pm

Okay, that might be holding you back. It's up to you what to do with that situation. Would you prefer a girlfriend who understand this? I know I'd prefer a husband who did, but that's not what I have. I just let him do his thing and don't worry about it.

Myself, since I can't find any "god" in DE, there isn't one. Christianity, well, no. Not for me. But up to you.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:36 pm

I also have fear that the non-self perspective might not be the truth.

I don't want to fall into error.

In the past I have believed things which seem very false looking back.

Sometimes I start to be suspicious because so much in non-duality is about ignoring or not trusting the mind. There seems no way of testing its credentials if thinking about it can't validate it.

But you said you never had doubts, right?

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:19 pm

Hi,

Right, I never had doubts. I grew up listening to Alan Watts on the radio every week, and had comparative religion in my Sunday School. Besides, it was the 70s and I'm a baby boomer. We were all into such things.

Didn't we go over the Truth/Lie feeling? Have you been spending time verifying it for yourself? DO!


The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.


Remember? Or did we not?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:20 pm

Yes, right here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8918&start=15#p357008

Spend time testing and testing and testing until you can no longer doubt this signal.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
mevehicle
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:28 pm

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:12 pm

Hi Stacy,

I spent some time revisiting the exercise on distinguishing truth from lies.

As I said before, I am not great at visualisations, and I am not really finding a lot of bodily sensation, even when mentally rerunning instances when I have knowingly lied to such an extent that it troubled my conscience.

It struck me too, that there is a snag with this exercise for use in revealing the separate self to be a fiction.

In Liberation Unleashed the separate self is often compared to the belief in Santa Claus.

An adult telling a child that Santa exists is lying to them.

But if the child believes them and thinks Santa exists, then when they go and tell another child about it, even though they are telling them something that isn't true, the child isn't really lying because they believe they're telling the truth.

If they tried this exercise, they wouldn't find the bodily sensation of lying.

So if I'm not fully convinced that the separate self is false, how can I test whether it is by asking if I'm lying to myself?

Perhaps if someone was utterly convinced that a separate self is non-existent then the exercise might give them the last bit of proof they need.

But for me at this point the separate self still feels so real that sometimes I wonder whether I'm lying to myself by telling myself that it isn't.

And how can I be lying to myself if there is no self to lie to and no self to tell the lie?

Please help me to unpick this.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:20 pm

Okay, first...
If they tried this exercise, they wouldn't find the bodily sensation of lying.
Oh yes, they would!

Many many people believe a lot of things about some guys supposedly named Jesus and pass it on because they believe it. But trust me if they checked their gut sense, they'd find they were lying about most of it. (Refer to the writings & recordings of Dr. Bart Ehrmann.)

Or God? God can't be found in Direct Experience, right? People are told to have "faith." Don't believe me. Check!

God is just a name for this mystery of life that we will never understand with our minds.
I am not great at visualisations, and I am not really finding a lot of bodily sensation, even when mentally rerunning instances when I have knowingly lied to such an extent that it troubled my conscience.
Do not visualize. This has nothing to do with visualization.

LEARN to feel your body Sensation.

The rest of your post is all thinking. What did we say about thinking? We don't care about it. Review Colored Socks.

No thoughts and no logic are going to give you what you're looking for. You must look - simply look with your eyes.


I'll pause there & see if you're following this.
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 5390
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:41 pm

By the way...

Vince's meeting is tomorrow. I think the time change affected it. Check with him, please.

There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:

Thursday Meetings.

Hi Guys,

we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.

Here is an invitation for you:

Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.

To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com

You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.

Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________

Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)

Monday August 14

6 am Sydney (est) Australia
Every 2 weeks after that.

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

Let him know if you want email reminders.

Vinceschubert@gmail.com

__________________________________________________

Ilona's Meetings

Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )

To register send Ilona an email to

admin@ilonaciunaite.com

Looking forward :)


__________________________________________________

(videos)

Hi everyone.

Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.

https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4

Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate

Ilona

__________________________________________________

Have fun with these. Looking forward to next reply.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"In Japanese monasteries, they warn you not to come in."

~ Natalie Goldberg
"Thunder & Lightening: Cracking Open the Writer's Craft"


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 27 guests