so tired of seeking

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:59 pm

Well it seemed like cause and effect.....I thought that thought or I commanded that thought to stop the hand turning over and right away the hand stopped....so because the hand stopped as soon as that command was given, it seems like the thought and the stopping are directly related.....but again I don't know that for sure, it sure seems like it though ( even though intellectually I have learned that there is no cause and effect, but I still can't wrap my head around that concept)
Also, that hand turning up and down was into its own rythym and I don't think that would have stopped just then by itself if I hadn't ordered it to stop with my thought...that would have been too much of a coincidence

Can cause and effect be found in your actual direct experience, or only in the content of thought?

Even if a thought precedes an action, what precedes the thought? Is there any decision/selection/choice, or does the thought just appear?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:58 pm

Can cause and effect be found in your actual direct experience, or only in the content of thought?
Well I know that cause and effect is a concept and concepts are thoughts or "of mind",,,so now looking at the experience of this moment...I just felt an itch in my left ear and as soon as I felt that itch, the left hand just moved to scratch it...I wasn't aware of giving the hand the command to itch that ear....the hand just seemed to move there on its own, as if on autopilot...but as soon as i reviewed that whole event ( as thoughts in mind ) , then it appeared as though the hand moving to scratch the ear was a result of the itch so it seems like cause and effect......hmmm...in direct experience now, it appears that things just happen...and then the thought or the analysis of the event comes later....I will keep looking at this today
Even if a thought precedes an action, what precedes the thought? Is there any decision/selection/choice, or does the thought just appear?
I don't know what precedes the thought.....Looking now at my experience sitting here in bed, I feel some low back pain and then comes the thought that I should adjust my position and then the body moves to adjust its position in order to alleviate that low back pain...that adjusting didn't help much and so another attempt is made which reduces some pain...but I can't find what preceded those thoughts...
There doesn't seem to be any decision/selection/choice that precedes the thoughts...the thoughts just appear

User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:04 am

Well I know that cause and effect is a concept and concepts are thoughts or "of mind",,,so now looking at the experience of this moment...I just felt an itch in my left ear and as soon as I felt that itch, the left hand just moved to scratch it...I wasn't aware of giving the hand the command to itch that ear....the hand just seemed to move there on its own, as if on autopilot...but as soon as i reviewed that whole event ( as thoughts in mind ) , then it appeared as though the hand moving to scratch the ear was a result of the itch so it seems like cause and effect......hmmm...in direct experience now, it appears that things just happen...and then the thought or the analysis of the event comes later....I will keep looking at this today

Fantastic! Let me know how your looking goes.

I don't know what precedes the thought.....Looking now at my experience sitting here in bed, I feel some low back pain and then comes the thought that I should adjust my position and then the body moves to adjust its position in order to alleviate that low back pain...that adjusting didn't help much and so another attempt is made which reduces some pain...but I can't find what preceded those thoughts...
There doesn't seem to be any decision/selection/choice that precedes the thoughts...the thoughts just appear

Perfect. How does it feel to see that?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:34 pm

..hmmm...in direct experience now, it appears that things just happen...and then the thought or the analysis of the event comes later....I will keep looking at this today

Fantastic! Let me know how your looking goes.
What I noticed over and over is that yes, things just happen without being aware of any thoughts preceding them...it's only when I pay attention to something or that all of a sudden I notice something, that I can see a thought precedng an action so that it seems like cause and effect...unless I think about something right after it happens ( like giving attention to it and then analysing it), then stuff is just happening all by itself without any previous thinking or planning......
For example, as I was typing, all of a sudden my head just turned and looked out the window...why did it do that and why then? I don't know...it just moved by itself and I wasn't aware of any directives being given....
Every once in a while, my toes just wiggle....but I don't recall giving them the order to wiggle...they just seemed to do that on their own ( my mind is chiming in saying the toes are stretching to relieve tension and tightness....but I can see now that those are just thoughts coming in after the fact in order to analyze or interpret what just happened to make it look like cause and effect...)
There doesn't seem to be any decision/selection/choice that precedes the thoughts...the thoughts just appear

Perfect. How does it feel to see that?
Well that Ursula/Me presence is still very strong, but after much looking, a little gap is forming between the thoughts and the feeling that Ursula/Me is thinking these thoughts......Also, there is still the feeling that Ursula/Me is the doer of actions, but again after all this looking and seeing that things just happen by themselves, there is more distance now from the belief that Ursula/Me is the doer and thinker........

User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:31 pm

Nicely done, you’re doing great!

Here’s another exercise on this some trajectory….



Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Ursula autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Ursula is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:31 pm

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
No the stream doesn't choose any of its directions.No it isn't actually a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks in it etc. The stream itself is the water and the rocks,soil,leaves..whatever is in it....
No it is not the same entity moment by moment as it is constantly changing depending on the weather conditions adding more water or reducing the water flow...and the changing speed of its flow depending on the incline doing down the mountain.....the mountain stream is an ever-changing pattern.....

1. Can you find anywhere where Ursula autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

Hmmm, at first when looking at that question, it seems as though Ursula is always intervening and choosing herself what should happen next.......but then at closer looking, yes I can see the analogy with the mountain stream in play here...what looks like Ursula intervening on the surface, is really just a natural response to everything that has gone on before and what is happening in the moment.....yes it appears to be a moment by moment response without thinking....that seems very clear for the little things......but now looking at something bigger...like when to take a holiday......at first it seems like Ursula has to plan and think about this a lot involving a lot of factors......but at closer look now when I dissect that process, it becomes clear that every decision I would make in this regard is related to something that has either happened before or is happening now, whether in experience or in thoughts....yes I can see how the final decision is made in response to the overall flow of Ursula's life and not as an isolated, conscious and separately thought out decision.......that is so interesting to really look at that......
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
Yes I can see that making that type of decision is not just made in the moment, even tho the Ursula feels strong here....but yes, while it seems like Ursula is making the decision on what to wear, so many pre-existing factors are already in play on their own, like what the weather is like, what clothes are available, what likes and dislikes in clothing already exist...Hmmm right now am comparing Ursula making decisions to the mountain stream choosing its course down the mountain...It seems like the way Ursula would decide is already kind of predetermined based on previous factors...but no Ursula deciding at all??? just things being decided and happening without a doer or thinker??? Its such a great analogy and I can see the similarity but yet the Ursula decider still has a strong presence.....that attachment to the Ursula body/mind still strong right now....I need to look at this more....but I can see where this exercise is leading to....
3. Can anything be found for which Ursula is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
Well there are so many choices available it seems, but then this idea of it being predetermined based on previous factors comes in...and then the feeling that Ursula still has to make the final decision comes in...then some confusion about where Ursula is...then a picture comes of Ursula just being a body like a computerized robot with software in place that really is not responsible for anything on its own...then a weird feeling like ...if nobody is home here, who is seeing and realizing all this....hmmm, lots to digest here........

User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:39 am

Really great, Ursula, let’s keep going with this!

...if nobody is home here, who is seeing and realizing all this....

Exactly! That’s the question… But, what if seeing and realising are just verbs? What if they just happen without a self behind them?


Here’s another exercise on this track:


Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.


Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.


Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?


Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:02 am

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.


Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
No I didn't choose the qualities of each drink as each drink has its own inherent qualities...so their qualities just appeared by themselves....There was a preference manifested...one of the drinks was bone broth and the other was mint tea...since today is my bone broth fasting day and I was so hungry, I craved the salty bone broth as I was reviewing the qualities..but yes the preference for the bone broth just popped up by itself without a real choice....
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
I think I was pretending to choose but in reality I already knew that my preference for the bone broth was so strong....when I was counting, I thought to myself "let's see which one I will choose" but I think I already knew the answer...there didn't seem to be a mental function doing the choosing...just an inner pull.......no I haven't seen this mental function in action ...altho now I am remembering last summer in at a popular ice cream place in Vancouver and they had hundreds of flavours and it took me a while to choose...
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No I didn't actually witness a mental function doing the choosing....but yes there seemed to be a voice in my head kind of citing reasons why I should go for the bone broth ( it's salty, I'm hungry and fasting and it will fill me up more than tea )
Nothing arose that announced "I am the chooser"...just that voice in my head with thoughts as I listed above....
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
Yes exactly..it FEELS like theres choosing going on or that there is an I doing the choosing....but you're right in that a feeling cannot choose....but a feeling can predispose you to move in a certain direction or choosing can't it?????

User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:21 am

Well done with this!

Yes exactly..it FEELS like theres choosing going on or that there is an I doing the choosing....but you're right in that a feeling cannot choose....but a feeling can predispose you to move in a certain direction or choosing can't it?????

That’s right, but you’ve already shown that it’s not real choice by using the word ‘predispose’. Feelings can influence action and thought, but they’re neither chosen nor choosers. Does that make sense?


Now, what is your current experience of thoughts, actions, feelings, etc.? On whose behalf do they all arise?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:13 pm

Yes exactly..it FEELS like theres choosing going on or that there is an I doing the choosing....but you're right in that a feeling cannot choose....but a feeling can predispose you to move in a certain direction or choosing can't it?????

That’s right, but you’ve already shown that it’s not real choice by using the word ‘predispose’. Feelings can influence action and thought, but they’re neither chosen nor choosers. Does that make sense?
Yes that makes sense.....Once feelings come up, then there is no real choice as those feelings predispose you to act or think a certain way......yes I can see that feelings are not chosen, they just appear out of nowhere......yes I can see that feelings don't choose as they just arise and dont have the power or intelligence to choose anything
Now, what is your current experience of thoughts, actions, feelings, etc.? On whose behalf do they all arise?
Hmmm, I can see that thoughts just arise randomly, not on anyone's behalf...now after this exercise, I understand a bit more how feelings can also just show up spontaneously in the moment, also not on anyone's behalf...but actions I never really saw this way.....I just itched my left ear while I was thinking about this question and now I'm aware that the hand just went up to itch the ear but did so automatically and not on anyone's behalf....Now I'm aware of my eyes blinking, but not on anyone's behalf....the feeling of a ME, URSULA THE DOER, is still very strong here.....but now I am really watching all the actions here and just trying to dissect how they appear....I can see that I don't really know what the body will do next....my head just turned to the right and then the body stretched...I can't find anyone that gave that command or how that action started...it just happened without any rhyme or reasons...Ive had this kind of weird eerie feeling before when contemplating that there is nobody here doing, thinking or feeling anything....it's still a farfetched idea that is being resisted, even though that is my experience.....

User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:31 am

Doing well, Ursula!

the feeling of a ME, URSULA THE DOER, is still very strong here

Can you tell me more about this from experience?


Here are a few more exercises too…


On the count of three, think of any number between 1 and 10, or not.
1,
2,



What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?

Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?




On the count of three, raise your right hand, left hand, or neither.
1,
2,



What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?

Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:31 pm

the feeling of a ME, URSULA THE DOER, is still very strong here

Can you tell me more about this from experience?
Well, just sitting here on my bed, this body.... which still feels it belongs to some sort of entity called Ursula....feels the chill in the air as I had the window partly open during the night. So these hands....which feel like they are Ursula's...are bunching up the bed covers around my body to keep ME warm.....Now I, the Ursula, feel the warmth of the bedcovers which brings a cozy feeling....It feels like Ursula , the ME, is now thinking of what to write next about my experience....I'm sitting here in the dark looking at my experience.....I just realized that I was clenching my teeth....yes there is a little anxiety about this question ...there is so much resistance to look at this question.....
On the count of three, think of any number between 1 and 10, or not.
1,
2,

What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?
Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?
As soon as I read the question, the number 7 popped into my head because that's my favourite number...so when I started counting, I already knew I was going to choose he number 7......
Wee it feels like I chose number 7, but then again, that number popped into my head by itself....probably because it has been my favourite number since I was a child..so I guess there was no chooser in reality and that "choice" just came out of conditioning from the past????
On the count of three, raise your right hand, left hand, or neither.
1,
2,
…What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?
Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?
As soon as I read the phrase up until 'Raise your right hand", my right hand already went up....so when I read the other 2 choices available, my right hand was already up...so I guess I didn't do it right???
But I kind of see how my right hand, being my dominant hand, was already poised to be raised..I kind of already knew the rigt hand was going up...the choice didn't seem like a direct one....it was more like a default reaction as the right hand is the dominant hand....

User avatar
Harry
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby Harry » Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:42 am

Hi Ursula,

On the count of three, think of any number between 1 and 10, or not.
1,
2,

What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?
Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?

As soon as I read the question, the number 7 popped into my head because that's my favourite number...so when I started counting, I already knew I was going to choose he number 7......
Wee it feels like I chose number 7, but then again, that number popped into my head by itself....probably because it has been my favourite number since I was a child..so I guess there was no chooser in reality and that "choice" just came out of conditioning from the past????

On the count of three, raise your right hand, left hand, or neither.
1,
2,
…What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?
Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?

As soon as I read the phrase up until 'Raise your right hand", my right hand already went up....so when I read the other 2 choices available, my right hand was already up...so I guess I didn't do it right???
But I kind of see how my right hand, being my dominant hand, was already poised to be raised..I kind of already knew the rigt hand was going up...the choice didn't seem like a direct one....it was more like a default reaction as the right hand is the dominant hand....

I think it may be useful to try those two exercises once more… there’s no need to work out, analyse, predict, or produce anything… just look in your experience simply at what happens before the thought/action.

Well, just sitting here on my bed, this body.... which still feels it belongs to some sort of entity called Ursula....feels the chill in the air as I had the window partly open during the night. So these hands....which feel like they are Ursula's...are bunching up the bed covers around my body to keep ME warm.....Now I, the Ursula, feel the warmth of the bedcovers which brings a cozy feeling....It feels like Ursula , the ME, is now thinking of what to write next about my experience....I'm sitting here in the dark looking at my experience.....I just realized that I was clenching my teeth....yes there is a little anxiety about this question ...there is so much resistance to look at this question.....

Can you tell me more from experience about Ursula herself, rather than that which belongs to her (hands, body, thoughts, etc.)?

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:10 pm

I think it may be useful to try those two exercises once more… there’s no need to work out, analyse, predict, or produce anything… just look in your experience simply at what happens before the thought/action.
On the count of three, think of any number between 1 and 10, or not.
1,
2,

What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?
Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?

This time, as soon as I read the question, even before I got to 3, the mind had already chosen 7, or actually, 7 just popped up by itself......there wasn't a real choice....the one reading the question felt like the chooser but since the number 7 popped up even before I counted to 3, then it seems there was no chooser.....Don't know why there's so much resistance to doing this question again......just a feeling that I'm not doing it right.....not getting it.....
On the count of three, raise your right hand, left hand, or neither.
1,
2,
…What happened in between ‘2’ and ‘…’?
Was there a choice? Was there a chooser?
This time as soon as I read the question, a thought came "Im not going to raise my hand because it's cold in the room and I want to keep my arm under the covers....."
Hmmm, now it feels that there was a choice altho it was just a thought
Well it feels there was a chooser but I know it was just a thought......

User avatar
mischa
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:39 am

Re: so tired of seeking

Postby mischa » Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:00 pm

oops I forgot this question from earlier....but the other 2 exercises I did do again.....scroll back one day to see.....
Well, just sitting here on my bed, this body.... which still feels it belongs to some sort of entity called Ursula....feels the chill in the air as I had the window partly open during the night. So these hands....which feel like they are Ursula's...are bunching up the bed covers around my body to keep ME warm.....Now I, the Ursula, feel the warmth of the bedcovers which brings a cozy feeling....It feels like Ursula , the ME, is now thinking of what to write next about my experience....I'm sitting here in the dark looking at my experience.....I just realized that I was clenching my teeth....yes there is a little anxiety about this question ...there is so much resistance to look at this question.....

Can you tell me more from experience about Ursula herself, rather than that which belongs to her (hands, body, thoughts, etc.
Hmmm I'm just looking at that...who is Ursula herself if not that which belongs to her ( hands etc). ?
Without hands, body, thoughts, feelings etc, what is left of Ursula? Although that feeling of an Ursula is here, without all those things just mentioned, there seems to be nothing left to look at....It's like all those things make up the Ursula so without them there is no Ursula ???? So what is this feeling of Ursula then? Just another thought? hmmm...confusion...it's as though mind stopped....can't seem to figure this out......


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests