Don't know

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:35 pm

Hi Buddho

I read your answers, you are doing a good job. At this stage, I invite you to investigate thoughts.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Look at each question and give separate answers.

Best for you

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:29 pm

Hi Warissem!

Where are they coming from and going to?
It changes. At first they seemed to come from the center, which seemed located right behind the eyes. Then it was hard to locate them, they didn't seem to have a location. Later they seemed to come more from behind. They disappeared from where they also appeared I believe but I don't know for certain. It's really not possible to say definitely. They are much too hazy and hard to locate.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
I had this question you asked in mind, so they were triggered by that. But I could not do anything to make a thought appear. On the contrary when I tried to make a thought appear it was only silence.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No, as I already wrote, when I try to create them they tend to calm down.

Can you predict your next thought?
No, the first thought was "What will the next thought be about?", then it was silent for quite a while, then I expected it to stay silent but instead the thought "There will be no more thoughts" appeared. So no I can't predict whether there will be any thought nor what it will be about.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
If there is no intention to think pleasant thoughts like when doing a "loving kindness" practice, then I can't select them. I mean it is not possible because to select they must have appeared in the first place.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
I can try to bring "myself" into a calm, peaceful mood. But it is no guaranty to keep away negative, fearful thoughts.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No, as I wrote before that is not possible, because to do that they need to be already there to be able to choose any of them.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No that is definitely not possible, in the moment I try to prevent it I already need to keep this thought in mind to check. So it is not possible.


kind regards

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:43 pm

Hi

You have done good observations about thoughts. These are some comments :
It changes. At first they seemed to come from the center, which seemed located right behind the eyes. Then it was hard to locate them, they didn't seem to have a location. Later they seemed to come more from behind. They disappeared from where they also appeared I believe but I don't know for certain. It's really not possible to say definitely. They are much too hazy and hard to locate.
Do you see that you your answer is imagination : look at direct experience and SEE where thoughts are coming from ? If you don't see just say I don't know.

Best for you

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:47 pm

Hi!

You don't mean "see" literally do you? I can't see thoughts. It's more a knowing. They appear and disappear from what is felt like "inside within". Where this inside is, I cannot really locate.

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:35 pm

Hi Buddho

Great, now we'll see about this "inside within". There is an exercise for you.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:57 pm

Hi Warissem!
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No, there is no "tall" and "body" on the sensational level.

Does the body have a weight or volume?
No, sometimes there are only sensations of "heaviness" and "spaciousness"

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, there are no "shapes" and "forms" on the sensational level.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No, it's only "pressure" sensations

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No, its only sensations of "weight" and "softness"

Is there an inside or an outside?
No, inside and outside are referring to shapes and forms. There aren't any on the sensational level.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It is referring to the experience of this sensations.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
It's only sensations which are arising and passing away.


In the direct experience sensations cannot really be located. Only when thinking about the experience they are attributed to "leg" or "head". Also there is no near and no far without thinking about it.
Observing thoughts in that "mode" they itself also cannot be located.

kind regards

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:45 am

Good morning

You are doing well. Now, it is seen that thoughts arise by themselves and there is no thinker, no Buddho behind them. it is seen that a body is a bundle of sensations (when eyes are closed) and colors (when eyes are open).
Is there a knower of thoughts ?
is there a knower of sensations ?
is there a knower of perceptions ?

Is there an experiencer in every day life ?

Best for you

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:18 pm

Hi Warissem,

I kept contemplating these questions for quite a while. Then it occured to me that these questions cannot be really answered. All there is, is thoughts, sensations, perceptions and experiences. A knower of all this cannot be known or experienced. "There is a knower" or "There is no knower" is only thinking.

best wishes
buddho

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:32 pm

Hi Buddho

Is there anything that it is not clear about this stuff ?
Is there a separate self in other people ?
What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:45 pm

Hi Warissem!
Is there anything that it is not clear about this stuff ?
Not at the moment.
Is there a separate self in other people ?
I don't know other people really, not on the sensational level. If I think about it, thought sais there are seperate others, which can be named and talked about. And it sais that there might be something behind the mere appearances. I can create theories around this, which can make sense. But then this would be based on the assumption there is a thinker behind this thoughts. If the thoughts are only thoughts, then the appearances are only appearances. And the question of "behind the appearances" is what it is, only a thought.
What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?
Hmmm, really don't know. So nothing I guess.

kind regards

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:36 pm

Hi Buddho

Go for a walk in a park or wherever and write back what is going on.

Best for you

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:04 pm

Hi Warissem!

Somehow the "thinking" is not taken seriously now, so it's really hard to define what is going on. I'll write back when I can tell.

have a nice evening
buddho

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:38 am

Good morning

Take your time for it.

Warissem

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Buddho
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Re: Don't know

Postby Buddho » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:10 pm

Hi Warissem!

At the moment there keeps returning this wish to know how separation comes about, what the cause for it is. Exploring this question I wonder, what the motivation behind to find the cause is. Is it the wish to have control about it? The wish not to cause division? Am I not creating the division by asking this question? That there is a difference between separation and not-separation? And asking this question and taking it seriously seems like there is a thinker behind this question, a seeker who wants to find out. Without projecting the seeker into this question, the question answers itself.

Just wanted to share. Maybe you can comment if you like.

kind regards

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warissem
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Re: Don't know

Postby warissem » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:53 pm

Hi Buddho

You are in the right track but resolving it through thinking won't help. The key is in the looking at direct experience. Separation is an illusion, it exists only as thoughts. In direct experience, there is no separation between the appearances and the knowing of them, there is no separation between thoughts, sensations and the knowing of them. The belief in "me" as a separate entity distorts the understanding : it seems that there is me here and others, the world over there. Without this illusory reference point, the things are seen as they truly are.

Best for you

Warissem


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