I am ready to see

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poppyseed
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Re: I am ready to see

Postby poppyseed » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:50 am

Just a few more clarifying questions:

What is life?
What is body?
a collections of thoughts, images / colours and sensations,
Are thoughts contained in the body?
just thought content makes them me, and also thought creates a me.
Can a thought do anything? Can a thought see, touch, hear ... ?
Play with these questions, don't just answer with thought. These point where to look, and do not test your knowledge. So, whatever thought comes up, set it aside and ask "Isn't this just intellectulising?" Go really deep into the questions, not just read and "yeah, I know what she means with this question - it's all thought, there is no one, etc." Whatever comes first doubt it and LOOK again. Answering is not as important as the actual LOOKING.
Also, when you answer, don't just answer with "no ... there" but describe your experience (5 senses) so I can get an idea where to point further if needed. Nobody is getting a certificat at the end :)
Enjoy your holiday, play with these when you can and answer when you can
Love
R

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Fledgling
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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:34 am

Thank you. I will work with all of these. I find that all the questions are seeping into my everyday experience even on holiday. So they are working on their own.

I noticed yesterday a song came into thoughts. And also a weird scenario came . And I was like "wow these thoughts really are unpredictable and I was just watching them with wonder...a bit like .... let's see what happens next!

I was reading a bit of liberation unleashed book last night as bedtime holiday reading. The question in the book was, what is the snesation trying to protect. What come up for me was fear of death.... I.e. if I let the mind not try to work things out and prepare more then there might be more chance of death because I would be too relaxed and not vigilant enough.

I will work with your questions! Thank you

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:01 am

But last night I went into the fear - it was running as general anxiety. And saw that is protecting nothing! :)

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby poppyseed » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:27 pm

Hey
What come up for me was fear of death.... I.e. if I let the mind not try to work things out and prepare more then there might be more chance of death because I would be too relaxed and not vigilant enough.
There are so many (inaccurate) stories here, I don’t know where to start...
How can something that never existed (EVER!) be in charge of anything and then stop doing it??? Is the “I” in charge of mind (thoughts)? Can you stop thoughts? Can you change thoughts? Who is in control, e.g., being vigilant?? Again, there are expectations that things will be somehow different… You would say that Santa will die, but how can Santa die if he never existed? It was an illusion before and it’s an illusion after that but it’s seen that it is an illusion. Does the mirage disappear once it is seen that it is a mirage? Did the mirage exist before – like for example a mirage of oasis – did it provide water for the animals and people (they can physically drink water), and when it was seen that it was a mirage the water disappeared??! Do thoughts do anything or just label/describe what is already happening? Can you find any of the stuff thoughts are talking about outside of thoughts???

Just food for more thought... or not :)
Love
R

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:46 pm

Great food for thought. I will in time, reply to all questions. But here are some answers for now

I've been observing and what I notice is that thought can sometimes inform action. Eg. I'm walking down some steep stairs in Venice and then a thought comes up "oh wait a minute, this could be dangerous let's do it this way" and then with that information I walked down the steps in "safer way." . That seemed to be all happening in the moment . It seemed like a thought informed a slightly different action. No, thoughts cannot do actions but it seemed they can inform actions to aid in safety. Sometimes there is just spontaneous action and sometimes thought informed action. Thats what I saw when looking. Rightly or wrongly.

Are thoughts contained in the body?
From DE , there is noticing of a thought . The content cannot be found in terms of location. Thought cannot be located

What is life?
A total mystery is my answer so far after observing

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:51 pm

Let’s explore choice, control and decision making again. Can you take me through your decisions about your holiday? How did that holiday come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of those conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please give me some details about your decission making.
The holiday came to be becusee my girlfriend needs to go for a doctor in verona. Many many many conditions needed to be in place for this to happen. If some of the conditions were different the outcome might have been different, true.
Nearly all, if not all of those conditions were out of my influence. What was in control? Apparently my decision to also go on this trip. But it kind of was already decided due to it being an obvious decision based on conditions (e..g a supportive relationship that I have) . There was no free will haha.

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:56 pm

How can something that never existed (EVER!) be in charge of anything and then stop doing it??? Is the “I” in charge of mind (thoughts)? Can you stop thoughts? Can you change thoughts? Who is in control, e.g., being vigilant?? Again, there are expectations that things will be somehow different… You would say that Santa will die, but how can Santa die if he never existed? It was an illusion before and it’s an illusion after that but it’s seen that it is an illusion. Does the mirage disappear once it is seen that it is a mirage? Did the mirage exist before – like for example a mirage of oasis – did it provide water for the animals and people (they can physically drink water), and when it was seen that it was a mirage the water disappeared??! Do thoughts do anything or just label/describe what is already happening? Can you find any of the stuff thoughts are talking about outside of thoughts???


No something that never existed cannot stop being in charge.
The I, is indeed a thought. Haha..

I cannot stop thoughts. I cannot change thoughts. Something is in control of itself .

Santa cannot die if he never existed.

Thoughts cannot do anything, I seemed like they can inform action. But I am not in control of thoughts.

No I cannot find any stuff thoughts are talking about outside of thoughts

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:55 pm

I'm also struggling very very very much in my relationship when I make a mistake. The whole blame, shame thing

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby poppyseed » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:28 am

Hey
No worries. Take your time with the questions.
I've been observing and what I notice is that thought can sometimes inform action. Eg. I'm walking down some steep stairs in Venice and then a thought comes up "oh wait a minute, this could be dangerous let's do it this way" and then with that information I walked down the steps in "safer way." . That seemed to be all happening in the moment . It seemed like a thought informed a slightly different action. No, thoughts cannot do actions but it seemed they can inform actions to aid in safety. Sometimes there is just spontaneous action and sometimes thought informed action. Thats what I saw when looking. Rightly or wrongly…. Thoughts cannot do anything, I seemed like they can inform action. But I am not in control of thoughts.
So, did you stop first and the thought came or the thought came and you stopped? 😊 I’m going to ask you again, do cause and effect exist outside of DE? Is there time there? What is time?
From DE , there is noticing of a thought . The content cannot be found in terms of location. Thought cannot be located
What or who is doing the noticing? (honest description of DE)
What is life?
A total mystery is my answer so far after observing
So, is there an entity called “life”, or “God” or “Consciousness” that dictates what is happening? LOOK! Don’t answer with “There is no entity” or “no one there” – describe your experience.
The holiday came to be becusee my girlfriend needs to go for a doctor in verona. Many many many conditions needed to be in place for this to happen. If some of the conditions were different the outcome might have been different, true.
Nearly all, if not all of those conditions were out of my influence. What was in control? Apparently my decision to also go on this trip. But it kind of was already decided due to it being an obvious decision based on conditions (e..g a supportive relationship that I have) . There was no free will haha.
So, basically causes and effects unrolling in thought. Now, what is happening without thought content?
I cannot stop thoughts. I cannot change thoughts. Something is in control of itself .
That would suggest a choice between one thing or another. What is in control outside of thought and of what?
I'm also struggling very very very much in my relationship when I make a mistake. The whole blame, shame thing
If there is no free will, who is making decisions and who is responsible?

Love
R

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:08 am

So, did you stop first and the thought came or the thought came and you stopped?
i think i probably stopped milliseconds before the thought

I’m going to ask you again, do cause and effect exist outside of DE? Is there time there? What is time?


Cause and effect occur in thought content. Without thoughts - no story - no timeline! Time is a concept in thoughts.
From DE , there is noticing of a thought . The content cannot be found in terms of location. Thought cannot be located
What or who is doing the noticing? (honest description of DE)
DE is images/ colours, smells, sensations, taste, thoughts. To describe who or what is noticing thoughts from DE, well - there is no colour, no smell, no sensation, no taste of an apparent noticer , so the noticer must be just a thought, but a thought cannot notice (or do anything). So I am a bit confuser about who or what is noticing a thought, other than saying it is a thought about a thought - which i dont know if that makes any sense
What is life?
A total mystery is my answer so far after observing
So, is there an entity called “life”, or “God” or “Consciousness” that dictates what is happening? LOOK! Don’t answer with “There is no entity” or “no one there” – describe your experience.
no entity. I am in Italy right now, and I am in a city I have never been to before - i did not know the way to the shop, there was an observation that intuition was driving the walking and was keeping this "body" safe from cars, etc, there were no thoughts needed to stay safe or find the safe way! In terms of what is life, i observed a lot of people and animals and plants just doing their stuff, i do not see a grand master orchestrating anything.
So, basically causes and effects unrolling in thought. Now, what is happening without thought content?
Its all happening without thought content! Including decisions!
Something is in control of itself . That would suggest a choice between one thing or another. What is in control outside of thought and of what?
ok, I see. there is nothing in control, no entity doer. this is absolutely bizarre... i cannot even say "something" is choosing on its own between one thing or another, i just have to say, choices happen (and there is no chooser
I'm also struggling very very very much in my relationship when I make a mistake. The whole blame, shame thing
If there is no free will, who is making decisions and who is responsible?

have you ever tried that during an argument ? haha . it does not work. but i know what you are saying. Language creates a doer, and thus a person who makes mistakes, and thus a person to feel shameful about it.

thank you for your wonderful questions. I found these the hardest questions yet - but that is probably because thought is in and out when I am answering them.

I have just watched this video by Luchana and Lubo (bedtime viewing instead of reading the book)
Jump from the edge of...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukvfPijBLE&t=1001s
and when they asked "what is reality without the content of thought, what is here?" That one really allowed thoughts to subside for a few few seconds and laughing and seeing without thoughts. And: "without (the meaning of) thoughts what is the experience of the body?" . it was lovely and interesting . And that then allowed me to see - by contrast - why I am not happy (and also the Weekend / Sunday issue I have) - Because now I am back to my normal state - my normal state is "yeh, there is this moment, but i cannot be happy here, I need to worry, there is nothing here in this moment for me" I realise that this is thought content , but the thoughts are very sneaky and I don't realise they are there. So the questions made me realise those thoughts were there. "what is reality without the content of thought, what is here?" and ""without (the meaning of) thoughts what is the experience of the body?" But these thoughts still run, and there are sensations in the face when these thoughts are believed. The same sensations everytime.

much love!

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby poppyseed » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:14 am

Hey
Glad you're enjoying your holiday! :)
i think i probably stopped milliseconds before the thought… Cause and effect occur in thought content. Without thoughts - no story - no timeline! Time is a concept in thoughts.
Do you see how these two statements challenge each other? If there is no cause and effect outside of thought content, does it matter which one is first? It IS what IS. Time reflects change in something – e.g. sun rise, but does sun rise exist outside of thought content, where it is always NOW, every moment a new? A thought about sun rise come with that. It's all good! Thus, what is the relationship between thought and action?
DE is images/ colours, smells, sensations, taste, thoughts. To describe who or what is noticing thoughts from DE, well - there is no colour, no smell, no sensation, no taste of an apparent noticer , so the noticer must be just a thought, but a thought cannot notice (or do anything). So I am a bit confuser about who or what is noticing a thought, other than saying it is a thought about a thought - which i dont know if that makes any sense
Is there a distance between the noticing and the objects (colours, smells, etc)? In your experience is there a point where the noticing ends and the object starts? Can you isolate them somehow from each other
no entity. I am in Italy right now, and I am in a city I have never been to before - i did not know the way to the shop, there was an observation that intuition was driving the walking and was keeping this "body" safe from cars, etc, there were no thoughts needed to stay safe or find the safe way! In terms of what is life, i observed a lot of people and animals and plants just doing their stuff, i do not see a grand master orchestrating anything.
Good! All is moving interdependently, and that includes thinking, feeling, sensing.
Let me give you again these pointers while you’re going around:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a line that divides me from everything else?
Is there an inside and an outside?
Is there an owner of life?

Stay with your experience…
have you ever tried that during an argument ? haha . it does not work. but i know what you are saying. Language creates a doer, and thus a person who makes mistakes, and thus a person to feel shameful about it.
These are long established patterns and it’s difficult to break them at once. But noticing of thoughts starts happening more often, and then observe what happens with that…
So the questions made me realise those thoughts were there. "what is reality without the content of thought, what is here?" and ""without (the meaning of) thoughts what is the experience of the body?" But these thoughts still run, and there are sensations in the face when these thoughts are believed. The same sensations everytime.
Well done for noticing! “Believing” or “staying with the story” and sensations happens, but then there’s noticing of thinking and labelling it –“thinking” - and with that the thought is “allowed” to pass and then there is just sensations... :)

Love
R

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:38 am

Do you see how these two statements challenge each other? If there is no cause and effect outside of thought content, does it matter which one is first? It IS what IS. Time reflects change in something – e.g. sun rise, but does sun rise exist outside of thought content, where it is always NOW, every moment a new? A thought about sun rise come with that. It's all good!
no, it does not matter if a thought comes before or after an action or decision! I see - thought and time thoughts create a story of a sunset.
Thus, what is the relationship between thought and action?

There is none! Thoughts try to describe and do a commentary but do not affect actions
Is there a distance between the noticing and the objects (colours, smells, etc)?
certainly not.
In your experience is there a point where the noticing ends and the object starts? Can you isolate them somehow from each other
no. Noticing a colour is one thing (no start of end of noticing and obects). Which would imply that noticing a thought is one thing . There is either noticing a thought or thinking , the first one is DE, the 2nd one is not DE becusad thinking engages with thought content - there is no one to engage with thought content.
Good! All is moving interdependently, and that includes thinking, feeling, sensing.
Let me give you again these pointers while you’re going around:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
from DE, no, the colours and images and sounds are all there . There is apparent separation among people .
When I ask "is there anything that is separate" - it brings up sensations in the "body" . i've been observing the sensations.
Is there a line that divides me from everything else?
no line!
Is there an inside and an outside?
not that I can see, hear, taste, smell, no.
Is there an owner of life?
cannot be found. No

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby poppyseed » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:19 pm

Hey
no, it does not matter if a thought comes before or after an action or decision! I see - thought and time thoughts create a story of a sunset… There is none (relationship)! Thoughts try to describe and do a commentary but do not affect actions
Ultimately, there is just experiencing (verb) and that is ALL. Everything else is just a story.
no. Noticing a colour is one thing (no start of end of noticing and obects). Which would imply that noticing a thought is one thing . There is either noticing a thought or thinking , the first one is DE, the 2nd one is not DE becusad thinking engages with thought content - there is no one to engage with thought content
I think I mislead you with this question… apologies! What I meant to point was that there isn’t a notice-r (someone who notices) or actual noticing (you can’t see the thinking, or smell it, etc.). Noticing is actually the LABELLING of what is actually happening (DE) - not the thought content (what you are thinking ABOUT), but the actual experience “thinking”, no matter what it is about. The awareness of a thought (one thing / no separation between) is the DE of "thinking", and "..." is the labelling/noticing of the action of "thinking", no matter what it is about. What thinking is ABOUT is thought content. Is this clear now? Just look for yourself. What is noticing trully?
from DE, no, the colours and images and sounds are all there .
You keep saying ‘from DE” like it’s opposing to something else. Is there anything else but DE? When we talk about the desert and the mirage is there anything else but the desert? Isn't the mirage also part of the desert
There is apparent separation among people .
How is it apparent?

How do you SEE it? Can your eyes isolate a person? Can they see only the background without the people? Can they see only the people without everything else? Can they see only your body but not the other people?

Is there a chance that you are reporting inaccurate stories again???

When I ask "is there anything that is separate" - it brings up sensations in the "body" . i've been observing the sensations.
Is there a chance that you are mixing SEEING with SENSING?
What are others (define in DE terms only)?

Sensations are there all the time – there is aliveness (breathing, pulsating, etc), provided that you are experiencing at all/ being alive.
Is there a chance that separation is an assumption (thought content) - I sense my body but not others', so they must be separate from me?
When somebody touches you is this your sensation or theirs?
Is there a line that separates your sensation from theirs?
Could it be possible that, all there is, is just A sensation labelled "others"?

Again spend time on each question and report. Remember DE changes your thoughts and not the other way around, so LOOK.
On a completely different subject, your thoughts might find this quite interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPPFqsECz0
Love
R

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:45 pm

Ultimately, there is just experiencing (verb) and that is ALL. Everything else is just a story.
ok!
I think I mislead you with this question… apologies! What I meant to point was that there isn’t a notice-r (someone who notices) or actual noticing (you can’t see the thinking, or smell it, etc.). Noticing is actually the LABELLING of what is actually happening (DE) - not the thought content (what you are thinking ABOUT), but the actual experience “thinking”, no matter what it is about. The awareness of a thought (one thing / no separation between) is the DE of "thinking", and "..." is the labelling/noticing of the action of "thinking", no matter what it is about. What thinking is ABOUT is thought content. Is this clear now? Just look for yourself. What is noticing truly?
.
absolutely clear. It is the action of thinking, but not the content, and there is no noticer... much like seeing and no seer

You keep saying ‘from DE” like it’s opposing to something else. Is there anything else but DE? When we talk about the desert and the mirage is there anything else but the desert? Isn't the mirage also part of the desert
thanks for the correction. There is only DE - what is actually happening. The mirage is part of the desert - but ultimately not real.
There is apparent separation among people .
How is it apparent?

How do you SEE it? Can your eyes isolate a person? Can they see only the background without the people? Can they see only the people without everything else? Can they see only your body but not the other people?

Is there a chance that you are reporting inaccurate stories again???
. There is a chance R, that I am reporting inaccurate stories! haha. To answer the questions, I cannot take the "people" out of the image. The eyes cannot isolate a person
Can they see only the background without the people? Can they see only the people without everything else? Can they see only your body but not the other people?
. No, no and no! Got it! that is clear now thank you. Its all in one
Is there a chance that you are mixing SEEING with SENSING?
I think i had the assumption, that part of non-dual awakening was to work through sensations. If i use seeing, after what we said in the question above, it is instantly clear there is nothing seperate - I think i had been trying too hard.
What are others (define in DE terms only)?
. just different colours / images, sounds, smells, tastes, but not of them separate.
Is there a chance that separation is an assumption (thought content) - I sense my body but not others', so they must be separate from me?
. yes there is a big chance that that was / is happening. Certainly an assumption. but not true
When somebody touches you is this your sensation or theirs?
it is one sensation - no owner

Is there a line that separates your sensation from theirs?
. Not at all!
Could it be possible that, all there is, is just A sensation labelled "others"?
yes, if there is a touch

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Re: I am ready to see

Postby Fledgling » Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:04 pm

On a completely different subject, your thoughts might find this quite interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPPFqsECz0
very interesting. after a couple of minutes - when he first mentioned gratitude there was an internal voice which said "oh god". but towards the end of the video and with the scientific backing, i would like to give it a try.
5 things I am grateful for today.
1. that the aeroplane brought us safely home to England today.
2. That I was able to go on holiday and see Venice
3. for chocolate that I had today.
4. for my flat.
5. for my girlfriend and her sister
6. for having a computer so that I can watch the world cup
7. for the ability to see and hear
8. for music.
9. for the friendly bus driving who i bought a ticket from today
10. for the rain today


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