Liberation from the lie

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:22 pm

Good afternoon, Vince.
life has not brought me much for holding on to beliefs other than more craving & disappointment.
Why would we try to hold on to a belief? It's a story isn't it. If we find it useful then we will use it until something better comes along. If we develop a need to hang on to it, then there is probably identification happening.
No argument here.
The risk is fear of the unknown.
If we have an expectation that out of the unknown will come bad stuff, then that fear arises. When I consider that in trying to control life i was corrupting the flow and that through years of this happening i still managed to survive (and thrive), i now have no trust issues with the unknown.
As I recollect, striving to survive was not peaceful, going against the flow.
When it is recognized that nothing can be known and that stories happen and get responded to, what is left to do but watch (and wonder)
Ok. I am ready. Let's go.

In your debt,
Gregory

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vinceschubert
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:48 pm

Good evening Gregory, I read your post and a warm feeling started in the chest region followed by thoughts like; “I think that Gregory has ‘got it’.
I like his tone..” (That’s one of vinces test@have they got it)

Then the thoughts continued; “I should compile vinces test@have they got it.”
…and here we are.
vinces test@have they got it, so run through this list and consider if they are accurate for you.
List out those that we need further work on...

1. The tone should be light, humble, confident, humorous, relaxed, excited,
2. It should be clear that only direct experiencing is actual and that the nature of that is that it is fleeting and always gives birth to stories (to explain or describe it)
3. ..also clear that everything that the mind produces is conceptual.
4. That we respond to mind-produced concepts
5. The idea of a self is seen to be just that, an idea. A story built up over a lifetime that was responded to as if it was actual and needed defending and bolstering. (Sometimes called the ego)
6. It is seen that Truth, Enlightenment, morality, right, wrong, good, bad, responsibility, etc are all social constructed concepts that we previously responded to as if they were actual.
7. It is seen clearly that choice, decisions, intentions, control, free will, etc are all mind induced illusions (previously delusions)
8. Expectations are seen as thoughts. (Fantasy) it is appreciated that shit will still happen (we just won’t react to it like we used to) No permanent anything - especially bliss.
9. There are differences from before in the way that we respond to many circumstances.
10. It is appreciated that this is a (kind of) beginning and that there is always more…
11. Seeking is dropped. That is it is replaced by discovery. Wonder and curiosity.
12. Questions no longer have to be answered. (Nothing is known) Yet everything necessary is available.

with love

vince

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:42 am

Good afternoon, Vince.
No permanent anything - especially bliss.
Vince, if you can make it permanent, I will worship you & start a new religion. No, I changed my mind. I will start a new religion after me since I just became a Buddha. Oh no, I fell by reason of pride. Religion told me I am going to burn in hell.

Did I win a prize? Do I get a medal? I trust you are having fun w/ me. Ha, this is so fun. I am having a good time. I am well aware more shit is coming, guaranteed. And you know what? I do not fear it anymore, nor am I bracing myself for an attack. I always reminded myself about how karma works, but I never really knew it in my heart. When one finally knows, the fear drops. He no longer hesitates or lives in dread of impending doom of suffering.
Storytime now.
I used to be a follower of the Faith movement years ago in Christianity. Kenneth E. Hagin told a story about a tall bldg.. being on fire & a man was hanging on to a rope he wrapped around his waist, waiting for the fireman to rescue him while swaying in mid air. The people on the ground was watching in terror. After he was rescued, a reporter interviewed him saying, "What was it like up there, hanging in mid air many stories up? I bet your were deathly afraid." He replied, "No. Why should I? I had a secure rope around my waist. I was enjoying the view while waiting."
I think I finally got it. Just recently, feeling depressed, I had the perceived need to take refuge in a deity. Then, I had an argument w/ myself. I said, "Greg. you have been here B4. And it is ok to feel whatever you feel. Your feelings do not dictate or substantiate anything. They don't condemn you. The other side said, "You haven't got it. You are still a weak ass man doomed to suffering, never going to be liberated." I thought the conditioning you spoke of was in action, moving me to take refuge in something o.s. of me. Finally, I lost interest in the conditioning & changed channels, this time not as an escape of a psychological tool to manage trauma, but only because the interest was dying out. You see Vince, unfoldment is the natural course of wisdom's freedom. I did not use an affirmation to bat the flies away in my suffering mind. Unfoldment was in operation. Wu Wei was lovingly there as it always was. No deity was coming to my aid.
I still having cravings, biases, etc..& I know they are what they are, but they are not me nor do they imprison me. I am not running to a text or something o.s. this time. Why? The unfoldment is all that is needed. Tomorrow, I may have another impulse to go o.s. to seek a deity, but impulses like craving or aversion do not locate you. I better stop here because I am repeating myself.
Everything you mentioned I totally concur.
Shall I enroll in Explorer Scouts since I obtained the Eagle rank in Boy Scouts?
Man, I am full of fun today & its all your fault.
God, there I go again. I need to sign off.

I bow my head to the floor in deep love, respect, & gratitude for your investment in me, you know the one that there is no me. I did it again. I hope you received all this in good humor.
Bye.

GSL

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:47 am

Vince,
I do not think I answered directly you last question on if there is anything I need to work on.

When I said I concur w/ all of it, I was referring to your numbered items that there was nothing to pursue. I do not mean that I have mastered it, for you said we will still have shit coming. So, if we create more suffering to work on, I am game.
Do you like that?

In a funny mood & in your debt,
Gregory

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vinceschubert
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:35 pm

Good evening Gregory,
I hope you received all this in good humor.
Yes, your good humor is catching. i loved your response.
Now the next step is for me to ask you some questions that I will share with other guides to see if I have missed anything.
Quote and answer them individually. If other guides concur with my assessment of you, I would like you to come to a Zoom meet up with others in similar circumstances (every two weeks)
You will also be invited to some Facebook groups. This is where the work really starts (now that you have the tools)
Anyway, let's see how this goes. There are no right or wrong answers.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

vince

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:32 pm

Good morning, Vince.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No.
2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.
When my dad said that if I do not learn a trade, I will be living from paycheck to paycheck. My mom told me after I told her at age 10 that I wanted to be a priest, she said, "You don't know what you want. You are too young." In the 1st example, this tells the child that he is separate from all good & needs to fear lack in order to be motivated for receiving supply. He has to struggle to survive since he is separated from all in all. There is practical wisdom in teaching a child after finding his natural bent how to support a living & it can be done in a healthier manner. The 2nd example tells the child that he is separate from all the wisdom due to his age & that he needs someone else to tell him what he should become.
I saw through these illusions when I realized that the universe is not against me, only the false concepts fed to me propagated more false concepts & the results of the beliefs enforced them. The 2nd example came under the light of truth when I realized that all my false programming, maybe well intentioned, was forcing me to rely on an o.s. source for wisdom. Even what I thought was i.s. wisdom, I found that it was twisted. I learned to differentiate strong belief conceptual reasoning from wisdom.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Relieved. The difference is what I thought was real & was not brought disappointment initially for it was my foundation for security. Then, I saw through the disappointment for what it was & not held to it, that I truly was not a prisoner. I saw that I had much to gain by riding on trust alone. Finally, I gave up the suffering created by wrong belief. It was easy once I saw through it. No mantras, prayers, hours of meditation, fighting thoughts, etc., just being.
4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?
Here is the before the actual seeing on 9/29/22:
G: So, what is there to hold on to? Truth? What is that? Can it be verified? Direct experience is the verifier, I thought. Now, I question that for it could be a story, too. Geez, I am running out of room here.
V: Yes, there's nowhere to escape.
Can anything be verified other than with stories?
You are nearing the point where falling is the only option. That takes trust.
Trust that you will survive the fall.
Trust that you don't need to hang on to anything.
Trust that what has sustained life so far will continue to do this. ..and the recognition that what you thought was doing it was an illusion.
G: Yes, unfortunately. I feel that I am standing on empty ground.
V: That's not unfortunate. It's fortunate. Empty ground is a good place to let go and free fall.
At this point, anything is possible. You know nothing and have returned to the time in childhood when you were discovering how the world works. Wide eyes and open mind.

Here is the point that I got it on 9/30/22:
V: The risk is fear of the unknown.
If we have an expectation that out of the unknown will come bad stuff, then that fear arises. When I consider that in trying to control life i was corrupting the flow and that through years of this happening i still managed to survive (and thrive), i now have no trust issues with the unknown.
G: As I recollect, striving to survive was not peaceful, going against the flow.
V: When it is recognized that nothing can be known and that stories happen and get responded to, what is left to do but watch (and wonder)
G: Ok. I am ready. Let's go.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.
My decision started w. a struggle as you read in this dialogue. I saw that my decision was at a point of nothing to lose & my previous methods were not working to well. Things happen much o.s. my influence and some on my own. I control very little in this game. The best thing I can control is my response. That is a psychology approach that never worked before but when realization comes from knowledge & wisdom, responding happens on its own because of unfoldment. That was mainly on my last 2 emails. The biggest influence came when you explained about standing on nothing but trust. I put that together w. the story from Kenneth E Hagin. It made great sense. Plus, I felt that I was not any better by holding on only to give myself a sense of security. I was worse off in the clinging in fear.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I am responsible for doing & thinking good about all. I am to observe any criticisms when things appear disagreeable. Then, I am to act accordingly as the situation directs. No o.s. deity to rely on, just flow & adjust. I did that this morning when my partner had a meltdown over our new Siberian Husky's 1st night here. She was ready to throw all away even though much $ was spent, & years of waiting/healing were happening since the last pet died. I did not fear or fall into to the tank. I did not get angry of the fact that more time will be required of me to train, clean, & care for this high-energy dog. I just took mim for a walk & moved on w. the morning. This is a 1st for me. Then, another incident was directly after that at breakfast. Her burnt out state & verbiage usually would depress me, lose my appetite, & make me lethargic in my tasks for the rest of the morning. My mood was steady. Why? Can I change what has flowered in front of me? Certainly not.
6) Anything to add?
No. If I did, I would be repeating myself.
It is a big relief not being driven by fear or need of security. My sleep is improving.

How'd I do, boss?

Great love & laughs,
Gregory

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vinceschubert
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:15 pm

Good evening Gregory,
How'd I do, boss?
You did pretty good, but a couple of points showed up that we need to work on some more.
I control very little in this game. The best thing I can control is my response.
Find an example of something that you think that you have control of like drinking a glass of water. Do it...
While it's happening notice how you don't need to consider how to hold it or what muscles to use to lift it to your mouth.
Now mentally say "I controlled that"
How does it feel?
Were you actually exerting control or did it just happen and the mind overlays the whole thing with an idea of control?
I am responsible for doing & thinking good about all.
Is responsibility a actual thing. or is it a socially constructed concept designed to modify behavior?
..and while we're here, what about "good" (and bad)? Is this also socially constructed?

with love

vince

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:26 pm

Good morning, Vince.
I control very little in this game. The best thing I can control is my response.
Find an example of something that you think that you have control of like drinking a glass of water. Do it...
While it's happening notice how you don't need to consider how to hold it or what muscles to use to lift it to your mouth.
Now mentally say "I controlled that"
How does it feel?
Were you actually exerting control or did it just happen and the mind overlays the whole thing with an idea of control?
I decided to p/u my phone. When I mentally said "I controlled that", everything went blank.
I am responsible for doing & thinking good about all.
Is responsibility a actual thing. or is it a socially constructed concept designed to modify behavior?
..and while we're here, what about "good" (and bad)? Is this also socially constructed?
If I see a child running out in the street & ignore the impulse to save it, I missed the opportunity to perform a good act. The same can be said for people watching a crime being committed & they do nothing to report it. This is responsibility in my book. Now, some people may not have the impulse to take action. Are you saying there are different moral constructs at play? In Joseph Campbell's "Power of Myth", there is a part where the aboriginal culture perform a ritual of a girl who loses her virginity, then is put to death (sacrificed) & the ritual is accepted w/o resistance. How does this fit in w. construct?

IN your debt,
Gregory

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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:03 pm

Good evening Gregory,
I decided to p/u my phone. When I mentally said "I controlled that", everything went blank.
So what does that tell you?
If I see a child running out in the street & ignore the impulse to save it, I missed the opportunity to perform a good act.
Is it society's idea of "good" that makes you act to save the child?
some people may not have the impulse to take action.
Why do you think that might be?
Are you saying there are different moral constructs at play?
Some people want to do "good" things while others commit crimes. Do they adhere to the same moral code?
Where does that moral code originate?
aboriginal culture perform a ritual of a girl who loses her virginity, then is put to death (sacrificed) & the ritual is accepted w/o resistance.
the Incas sacrificed many by taking their heart out while still alive. They considered that it was good to sacrifice to the gods. Their moral code was vastly different to ours. Are either more than cult(ural) constructs?

vince

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:40 am

Good evening, Vince.
I decided to p/u my phone. When I mentally said "I controlled that", everything went blank.
So what does that tell you?
It does not tell me anything.
If I see a child running out in the street & ignore the impulse to save it, I missed the opportunity to perform a good act.
Is it society's idea of "good" that makes you act to save the child?
No. That is instinct. I would act w/o thinking, access the situation quickly, & act.
some people may not have the impulse to take action.
Why do you think that might be?
They have different set of programming.

[/quote]Are you saying there are different moral constructs at play?
Some people want to do "good" things while others commit crimes. Do they adhere to the same moral code?
Where does that moral code originate?
[/quote]
No. It comes from the o.s.
aboriginal culture perform a ritual of a girl who loses her virginity, then is put to death (sacrificed) & the ritual is accepted w/o resistance.
the Incas sacrificed many by taking their heart out while still alive. They considered that it was good to sacrifice to the gods. Their moral code was vastly different to ours. Are either more than cult(ural) constructs?
I would have to say no. Both are constructs from the o.s.

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:41 am

I forgot.
Thank you, Vince.

In your debt,
Gregory

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vinceschubert
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:25 pm

'evening Gregory,
When I mentally said "I controlled that", everything went blank.
So what does that tell you?
It does not tell me anything.
Yes it does. What does it say about control?
No. That is instinct. I would act w/o thinking, access the situation quickly, & act.
Yes, nothing to do with responsibility or morality. It is your (conditioned) nature. Of course we can apply these concepts after the event to describe them, but they are not the reason that you do 'good' things.
responding happens on its own because of unfoldment
Does this apply to decisions, intention, choice etc?

vince

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:54 pm

Good morning, Vince
So what does that tell you?
It does not tell me anything.
Yes it does. What does it say about control?
Ok. Then maybe if we look at it this way, intuition/instinct did not confirm the statement. Therefore, the statement is invalid.
responding happens on its own because of unfoldment
Does this apply to decisions, intention, choice etc?
No.

In your debt,
Gregory

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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:02 pm

Good evening Gregory,
responding happens on its own because of unfoldment
Does this apply to decisions, intention, choice etc?
No.
Are you saying that these things are something actual?
...that intention and choice and control exist in some objective way, rather than only being a story about a happening?

vince

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realizeenlig
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Re: Liberation from the lie

Postby realizeenlig » Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:24 pm

Good morning, Vince.
responding happens on its own because of unfoldment
Does this apply to decisions, intention, choice etc?
No.
Are you saying that these things are something actual?
...that intention and choice and control exist in some objective way, rather than only being a story about a happening?
No, I am not saying they are actual. Intention & choice do not control this.

In your debt.
Gregory


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