A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:25 pm

Hi, Mavi!
I live in Venice, Italy.
La Serenissima! How wonderful! I visited Venice twice, and have seen Florence, Rome, Ostia Antica, and Pisa. All are wonderful, each in its own way. Talk about visible history!
The thought/concept of having a point of view should arise. The idea of being a separate entity looking at the world from its own perspective. When I was walking around this evening (after doing the exercise) i was noticing how immersive can be to experience visual appearances when thought is not involved.
Yes! The thought MUST arise or there is no "feeling" that there is a point of view. (And without the thought, there is no "feeling" of NOT having a point of view, so you won't notice the absence of having a point of view until the thought "point of view" appears again! In other words, don't expect fireworks.) And, yes, seeing (or any sense) is immersive, vivid, and surprising when there is no thought, interpretation, labeling--when you notice that you don't know what This is, and become curious (not to understand it, but to experience it more directly).
I'd say it [awareness] is the only thing I find in direct experience.
This is a good answer for now.
This is the stream of thoughts I recorded earlier, while doing the exercise.
It seems that this exercise is useful to you. You said you were going to repeat it, so let's go with that.
There is no seer until thoughts arise reclaiming the ownership on seeing. Not implicitly. It's all implicit, automatic.
Excellent observations. Thoughts are so subtle, so implicit, and there are so many layers. They are also so automatic.
Mental activity itself seems to impose this "doership filter" on perception.
Doership is a filter, as is point of view/seer. There are many others that together make up our "sense of self". Our work is to see what they are made of and how they operate.

It's valuable to orient to the vivid, immersive sense perceptions. When the "feeling" (actually, thought) of "I" drops away, that is what remains. Does that bring up any feelings? I have a natural meditation routine first thing in the morning to really immerse/dissolve in Direct Experience. That is the true teacher. I'm only a guide. The point of inquiry is only to see the filters and how they produce the illusion--so that you can live in, as, and from Direct Experience.

Throughout our dialogue, feel free to send me your impressions, thoughts, and insights as they arise. There's no limit on how much or how often you can post.

Much love,
Jeff

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:01 am

Hi Jeff!
Last night I read parts of the thread you shared with me. Wonderful indeed :)
Throughout our dialogue, feel free to send me your impressions, thoughts, and insights as they arise. There's no limit on how much or how often you can post.
Ok :)
(And without the thought, there is no "feeling" of NOT having a point of view, so you won't notice the absence of having a point of view until the thought "point of view" appears again! In other words, don't expect fireworks)
True! I don't have to expect any whoa sensation
Doership is a filter, as is point of view/seer. There are many others that together make up our "sense of self". Our work is to see what they are made of and how they operate.
Great, excited about this!

I have a natural meditation routine first thing in the morning to really immerse/dissolve in Direct Experience. That is the true teacher. I'm only a guide. The point of inquiry is only to see the filters and how they produce the illusion--so that you can live in, as, and from Direct Experience.
I'm not following any meditation routines at the moment. I only meditate when I feel like it. Would you suggest to establish a routine?

I'll check in later, after I repeat the exercise!

Mavi

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:10 am

There you go, the second rambling:

"Without referring to the concepts, I cannot find an observer. I don't find someone who sees reality. There is only what is seen. But at the same time a movement of the head corresponds to a different perception. This suggests that depending on the perspective with which something perceives reality, reality changes. Following direct experience, I notice that a movement of the head corresponds to a change in perception. I don't find an observer but what is seen changes according to a certain orientation. Something new that I didn't have access to before emerges if I move my head further. It was out of sight. The surface I am looking at appears looming.
If I can't see what is behind, that appears by turning the head and disappears when the head returns to the initial position, there must be a point of view. But what if there was no concept of "behind"? what would happen to the point of view? […] if "behind" did not exist, there would be only This. The question of having or being a point of view wouldn't arise. [...] I feel anxiety. I should study I have an exam in two days. I should leave university, I don't care about studying statistics. I have to make a decision once and for all. I have been studying without any stimulus for years. I feel like a failure. I have no idea what I would like to do in life. Numbness in the chest. […] I don't want to follow these thoughts. It's always the same story. I’m sick of it. Why did these thoughts come up right now?
I get back to the exercise.
The shoulders are tight. I relax the muscles. I feel more relaxation in my stomach now. A hear a slight ringing and hearing is muffled. I feel like closing my eyes. […] Strange sensation of lightness and heaviness together. Sorry Jeff if it sounds completely rambling. I don't know if it will lead us somewhere useful. I open my eyes. What was I looking for? This feels strange… sadness and a little anxiety arise. I feel like smiling, my cheeks are numb. I get this feeling with psychedelics. Everything seems a little different than before. the backpack looks so small, the size is weird. The pile of clothes looks like miniature. It makes me laugh how I find the backpack moving. The details are so sweet, innocent. I feel numbness in my back and hands.
[my boyfriend came into the room] I was watching him talk and I felt like I was watching a movie. Then interacting with him I re-entered the movie haha. I am a little confused
I'm going to take a break now."

This is what came up. I feel a little confused now haha
If I can't see what is behind, that appears by turning the head and disappears when the head returns to the initial position, there must be a point of view. But what if there was no concept of "behind"? what would happen to the point of view?
I think I have to focus on this, I feel I can go deeper here.
Any suggestions? :)

Much love,
Mavi

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:37 pm

Good afternoon, Mavi!
I should study I have an exam in two days.
If you need to take a break to study, just let me know what you're up to. We have no deadline for our work.
I don't care about studying statistics.
Statistics, as I understand it, is ultimately about prediction. And the brain is a natural prediction machine. This is useful if your goal is survival. But notice that the brain's predictions are biased: When you see a coil on the ground, you may be biased to think it's a snake before you realize it's just a hose. You're not even seeing what you're looking at--just enough detail to make a prediction, and the prediction "feels" like what you're seeing. But it's not. You are predicting now that there is some chance that you will have an unsatisfying career. This is useful for considering corrections to your present course, but it creates anxiety and feels like suffering, yes? In the story, the character Mavi may have an unsatisfying career. Direct Experience is shapes, colours, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, and thoughts (but not their contents) in this moment, in constant flux, experienced as peaceful, vivid, interesting, always right, always enough. You have a choice of which world you want to live in. You can identify with this small, separate, vulnerable character, always trying to change things so they will turn out better. Or you can let all of that go. You will still be able to function in the world, but it will feel like everything takes care of itself!
But at the same time a movement of the head corresponds to a different perception. This suggests that depending on the perspective with which something perceives reality, reality changes.
What did you reference to arrive at the conclusion that reality changes? Where do you find "reality" in Direct Experience? Are we concerned with "reality" in this work?
If I can't see what is behind, that appears by turning the head and disappears when the head returns to the initial position, there must be a point of view. But what if there was no concept of "behind"? what would happen to the point of view?
Try this simple exercise: Hold a hand up with your palm facing you. Is there skin on the back of your hand? If you say, "yes", what are you referencing?
I feel a little confused now haha
What are you referencing to know that you feel confused?

Love,
Jeff

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:02 pm

I'm not following any meditation routines at the moment. I only meditate when I feel like it. Would you suggest to establish a routine?
I only know that natural meditation has been very important for me. When I am completely relaxed into Direct Experience, I see where this path is going: Dissolving into This. And then I know there is nothing to fear. Then I have trust and can let go further. And every time I meditate in this way, I see that I can find my way back to Direct Experience, more and more quickly. I found out that pain and even restlessness are not problems. I found out that there are no problems.

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:17 pm

f you need to take a break to study, just let me know what you're up to. We have no deadline for our work.
It’s fine :) I enjoy doing this. Maybe tomorrow i will take a little break if I need more time to study
You are predicting now that there is some chance that you will have an unsatisfying career. This is useful for considering corrections to your present course, but it creates anxiety and feels like suffering, yes?
Yes, you are right. I’ve experienced a lot of anxiety and frustration in the last couple of years. A lot of worrying about the future, manufacturing problems and identifying with them.
Direct Experience is shapes, colours, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, and thoughts (but not their contents) in this moment, in constant flux, experienced as peaceful, vivid, interesting, always right, always enough. You have a choice of which world you want to live in. You can identify with this small, separate, vulnerable character, always trying to change things so they will turn out better. Or you can let all of that go. You will still be able to function in the world, but it will feel like everything takes care of itself!
I really want to let it all go :)
What did you reference to arrive at the conclusion that reality changes? Where do you find "reality" in Direct Experience? Are we concerned with "reality" in this work?
No reality is found in direct experience. And no, reality is not our concern. With "reality" I actually meant what appears. What appears changes referencing what was seen before, which is not something that can be found in direct experience
Try this simple exercise: Hold a hand up with your palm facing you. Is there skin on the back of your hand? If you say, "yes", what are you referencing?
I can say yes referencing memory, acquired knowledge on human body. But from direct experience I cannot say yes. I can only see a shape a color and feel a texture
What are you referencing to know that you feel confused?
Perceptions seemed different than usual. So again, I was referencing memory of habitual perception

Love,
Mavi

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:58 pm

All excellent answers!
No reality is found in direct experience. And no, reality is not our concern. With "reality" I actually meant what appears.
Right! See, all of our words are figures of speech. "Reality" is not a thing. There are no things.
I really want to let it all go :)
I'm confident that you will, and soon!
I can say yes referencing memory, acquired knowledge on human body. But from direct experience I cannot say yes. I can only see a shape a color and feel a texture
Yes. Hands are thoughts, too. They appear directly as shapes and colours. There can be sensation but the sensation doesn't belong to "hand". Try this exercise: Hold an object in your hand, close your eyes, relax, and wait. Don't move. After a while, answer these questions:
Can you know that you're holding an object, referencing only the sensation?
Can you know that there is a hand, referencing only the sensation?
Describe the sensation.

What are you referencing to know that you feel confused?
Perceptions seemed different than usual. So again, I was referencing memory of habitual perception
Yes, and what else were you referencing? Think of synonyms for confusion.

Love,
Jeff

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:56 pm

Hi Jeff!

Thank you so much for your help and support! I'm very grateful :)
Right! See, all of our words are figures of speech. "Reality" is not a thing. There are no things.
Yes, words are empty. They are just labels, strings of letters - very useful in communication. But they have nothing to do with what they point to

Can you know that you're holding an object, referencing only the sensation?
Can you know that there is a hand, referencing only the sensation?
Describe the sensation.
No, hand and object seem to be merged. There is a continuity in the perception: I can’t feel the separation of the two
No, I cannot know if there is a hand.
There is warmth, a light pulsation and a tingling. I can’t feel a hand nor different fingers: it’s a single "space" of sensations that seems empty - I don’t perceive any density.

What are you referencing to know that you feel confused?
Perceptions seemed different than usual. So again, I was referencing memory of habitual perception
Yes, and what else were you referencing? Think of synonyms for confusion.
A combination of thoughts and sensations labeled with a sense of disorientation, uncertainty, misplacement, loss of usual reference points.

Lots of love,
Mavi

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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:00 am

Hi Mavi!
Thank you so much for your help and support! I'm very grateful :)
You're so clear, and you really know how to LOOK. It's truly a pleasure to work with you.
A combination of thoughts and sensations labeled with a sense of disorientation, uncertainty, misplacement, loss of usual reference points.
Please say more about the sensations.

Lots of love,
Jeff

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:27 am

Let me be a bit more specific. People say, "My head is spinning" as a metaphor for confusion. When you're confused, is your head actually spinning? Is your sense of balance disturbed? What makes the expression apt?

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:27 pm

Let me be a bit more specific. People say, "My head is spinning" as a metaphor for confusion. When you're confused, is your head actually spinning? Is your sense of balance disturbed? What makes the expression apt?
No, but the generic label “confusion” is associated to the sensation of head spinning. It is like an implied similitude. I am feeling confused as if my head was spinning. Even if it is not spinning, I compare the sensation of head spinning -that includes loss of balance, vertigo, dizziness, disruption of usual thought stream- to the present sensation.
The word “confusion” is a generic container for many different sensations… it is an idea, a thought, an empty box - but it points to many different sensations that are present in direct experience.

I hope I understood the question correctly :)

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:18 pm

Hi Mavi! How did your exam go?
Even if it is not spinning, I compare the sensation of head spinning -that includes loss of balance, vertigo, dizziness, disruption of usual thought stream- to the present sensation.
Yes. When I think, "I'm confused" and I think I'm feeling the loss of balance or vertigo, I'm not actually feeling the loss of balance or vertigo as Direct Experience. The "feeling" of loss of balance is a memory of the feeling--actually, a thought. My point is that we often think that a feeling is evidence of something being true. It turns out, the "feeling" may not even be a feeling, but may be instead a thought. (Not that feelings are infallible, either.) How automatic, random, and meaningless all this is! It's a house of cards. Do you get that?

So here's where I'm going with this. You have understood cognitively that there's no separate self. Do you still have a "feeling" of "I"? Is it a feeling or a memory of a feeling? Is the "feeling" there when you're not asking the question, "Who am I?"

When you were doing the "hold an object in your hand" exercise, were there moments when you were not aware of being a separate self? When you were so dissolved into the direct sensation that there was no thought or "feeling" of "I"?

Love,
Jeff

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:21 pm

I think went well! Thank you for asking :)
When I think, "I'm confused" and I think I'm feeling the loss of balance or vertigo, I'm not actually feeling the loss of balance or vertigo as Direct Experience. The "feeling" of loss of balance is a memory of the feeling--actually, a thought. My point is that we often think that a feeling is evidence of something being true. It turns out, the "feeling" may not even be a feeling, but may be instead a thought. (Not that feelings are infallible, either.) How automatic, random, and meaningless all this is! It's a house of cards. Do you get that?
Haha, yes. I get what you mean. Thoughts can be very sneaky when it comes to see what there actually is.
For example, I was noticing how common and automatic it is to overemphasize suffering through thoughts and phrases that completely distort actual perception. It's like a drama tendency: I can't do this - I am suffering too much - It couldn't go worse ... These phrases don't mean anything and yet they totally shape what we perceive to be true. There is an evident decoupling between direct experience and its commentary. It becomes kind funny when you see that behind all of the drama there is nothing really haha
Do you still have a "feeling" of "I"?
Yes. I would say there is an active and a passive aspect of this "I"
Right now it feels that there is perceiver of the colors, the shapes, the cicadas, the breeze, the texture of the sofa.. I can't say it is Mavi but there is an awareness of the perception that is linked to the "I" and that is the passive side. But it is also the "doer" when it comes to reasoning, making choices, doing things "actively". This side is very connected to thoughts. When thoughts are not around there is no feeling of I when I am engaged in activities and it feels great :) But it is rare
Is it a feeling or a memory of a feeling?
Maybe for the perceiver part is more of a feeling while for the doer more of a memory, a thought.

When you were doing the "hold an object in your hand" exercise, were there moments when you were not aware of being a separate self? When you were so dissolved into the direct sensation that there was no thought or "feeling" of "I"?
Yes I think so. When I am immersed in the direct sensation it happens that I forget about being a separate self. But when I had to think about how to describe it, thoughts started to arise and with thoughts a feeling of a thinker is implied

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AwayKen127
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby AwayKen127 » Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:41 am

Hi Mavi,

Last time, you said:
I would say there is an active and a passive aspect of this "I"
Right now it feels that there is perceiver of the colors, the shapes, the cicadas, the breeze, the texture of the sofa..
And here's what you said about the "Holding the Object" exercise:
When I am immersed in the direct sensation it happens that I forget about being a separate self. But when I had to think about how to describe it, thoughts started to arise and with thoughts a feeling of a thinker is implied
So the "feeling" of "I" is not always present. As you noted, thought is required.

I encourage you to repeat this exercise daily, if possible, to feel immersed in direct experience, to relax into it, to dissolve in it, and to know that you can find your way there anytime. And just to enjoy the sensation.

Here's an exercise for the active aspect, the "doer":

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. 
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on. 

Watch like a hawk. 

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled? 
Does a thought control it? 
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately. 
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Glad your exam went well!

Love,
Jeff

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Mavi
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Re: A venture into the unknown in the name of truth

Postby Mavi » Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:30 am

Good morning Jeff!
I encourage you to repeat this exercise daily, if possible, to feel immersed in direct experience, to relax into it, to dissolve in it, and to know that you can find your way there anytime. And just to enjoy the sensation.
I did it this morning, it was very enjoyable and spontaneous. i will continue doing it.
So the "feeling" of "I" is not always present. As you noted, thought is required.
Right


Palm Flipping Exercise
How is the movement controlled?
The body is taking care of it
Does a thought control it?
No. If I think "stop" or "slow down" the hand continues to move autonomously
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
I can't locate any controller while the hand flips. There is just the hand flipping
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
No conscious decision is involved. No decision point of any kind is found. Thoughts are not controlling the movement, it is spontaneous
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
It happened automatically, nobody consciously decided it. Being right-handed it is an ingrained habit to use the right hand more. But again it is spontaneous, nobody has to think about it before an action
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No, i can't find any separate individual that is choosing because no choice seems to be involved. There is just the movement of the hand, no separate controller/chooser

Much love,
Mavi


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