Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:31 pm

Hi Warissem
... and come at this forum in a state of not knowing
Promise acceptance, faith in the process and state of not knowing.


doing with honesty all the exercises and giving answers after having SEEN them as true (like seeing this screen). 
Repeating many times „seeing“, „looking“ dos not help a bit
What dos it mean? How to do that? Where to start? Maybe different wording will help?
Genie honest confusion.


If you agree I will continue with you.
Complete agreement and acceptance


Thanks so much,
.

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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:30 pm

Hi Niko

When I ask :

There is a car, there are clouds, there is a cat : you can point to these objects, they are seen.
Sounds are heard.
Perfumes of flowers are smelt
A delicious meal is tasted
Warmth or cold is felt, ...
Thoughts are known (I use also thoughts are seen).

When I use SEEN or KNOWN, it means generally KNOWN as knowing what is going on, not accumulated knowledge (like e = mc2 or 2+2 = 4).

Direct experience : this term is used during our dialog to "what is going on " as seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched (textures and sensations). Sure, thoughts are going on all along, but don't give them a penny.

After that having been said : What does "I" point to ?

Warissem

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:38 pm

Hi Warissem,

Thanks so much for clarification.


What does "I" point to ?

The "I" (self) can not be experienced with any five basic humans senses.
The "I" (self) can be experienced as a „product“ of knowing (thinking) = thought, idea, concept.

The "I" can be known as a thought.

"I" point to a thought, an idea, a concept.

Thanks so much,
.

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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:37 pm

Good evening

There is an exercise for you :

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

7. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

Warissem

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 pm

Hi Warissem

Here are fresh contemplations on exercise and questions.


1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from?
What makes the body get up?
Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

„I“ / „me“ / "self" is a thought, all thoughts are descriptions of what is happening.

The concepts „decision", "command" are jet another form of thought, thought have no deliberate plan, thought have no intent of itself.

The body (physicality and emotions) apparently can be triggered by a thought (rope mistaken for a snake), but a thought („I“ / „self“) can not „make“ / „command“ the body to leave the bed.


1. Can you see
...
What makes the body get up?

No answer here about „what“ (subject) - apparently the body moves (the body get up) and after the movement of the body a thought as a description of what is happening appears without apparent intent.



2. Can you choose to fall asleep?
Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

„I“ / "self" is a thought and can not deliberately/intentionally control the falling asleep.


3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

Apparent control (with free will and choice) over thoughts and the very content of the thought is a delusion as a result of misidentification.



4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

„I“ / "self" is a thought, thoughts are descriptions of what is happening and can not deliberately control the physical sensations of the body.

There are distinct pattern of behaviour of the body and arising of the physical sensations (apparently predictable) triggered by a thought (= rope mistaken for a snake, placebo effect).



5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise?
Sit and look at what is happening.
Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

„I“ / "self" is a thought and can not deliberately control the emotions, thoughts are descriptions (labels) of what is happening.

An emotion can appear in response to a stimulus (pattern), and that stimulus can be also a thought.



6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made.
Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

There is no knowing about a choice or what / how is it determined what number would be "chosen" before it appeared.


7. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does.
Focus on focussing, watch attention itself.
Do you move it? Or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath.
See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

Concerning focus no honest definitive answer with certainty can be found.



What moves attention?
Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

„I“ / "self" is a thought and thinking can not deliberately control the attention.

Apparently the attention instinctively (intuitively) follows the stimulus-response pattern.




The very short answer to all the questions above concerning control, choice and free will can be stated like this:

"A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills“.
Arthur Schopenhauer

Meaning, it appears AS IF there is a free will and a free choice (to control thinking, emotions, sensations) but contemplation one level deeper reveals that this is an delusion and it is apparently just a defence mechanism of the mind as a result from a misidentification.



Considering all that is said above there is very strange filling (all honesty as promised) that

everything what can be said ( = language, words, thoughts) is somehow not true, can not possible be true because of limitations of language itself >> what is said automatically becomes dualistic = is not true.


Thanks so much,
.

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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:19 pm

Good evening

Here is a meditation I recommend :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best wishes

Warissem

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:48 pm

Hi Warissem
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Relying on the pure sensations (with eyes closed), without relying on thoughts or mental images there is no way to know about how tall is the body, about weight or volume of the body.

Relying on the pure sensations there is only the experience of five basic sentences.


Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

A boundary between the body and the objects is a useful practical mental concept.

But relying on the pure sensations there is only tactile sensation (experience) of the body touching the objects (clothing, chair).


Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Relying on the pure sensations (with eyes closed), without relying on thoughts or mental images it is not possible to sense / experience an inside or an outside with basic sentences.


What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Without relying on thoughts or mental images the experience of the word/label ‘body’ is the experiences of five basic sentence of human body.



At this point I have to inform you that today (Thu Jan 13, apparently originally planed for Sunday Jan 09,) I have a „Get to Know“ Skype meeting with Jon. Therefor if you still got a filling that you should propose my thread to other guides, Jon asked me to communicate to you that he is willing to take it over for video guidance (or guidance on the forum as an option).

What is your call?


Thank you for your time and your patience.
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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:07 am

Good morning

You are doing well. I hope that the skype session with Jon has been helpful.

Have you seen for sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?
If there are doubts, be free to expose them here.

NB : about taking video sessions with Jon, it is helpful for you.

Warissem

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:58 pm

Hi Warissem
Have you seen for sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?
If there are doubts, be free to expose them here.

Not jet, with all honesty there is no real certainty about seen for sure that there is no „separate“ „me“ - „I“ / „me“ as a concept is still here (no "separate self" in any shape or form as a sensory experience = yes).

What the last exercise reviewed is only that not so much identification is here with sensory experience and as the result no (deep) identification with „body“. But it was probably always like that - sensory experience here were habitually ignored, underdeveloped and overwhelmed by thinking. That is probably why the question „Looking at direct experience“, „Don’t take the train of thoughts, just look“ is so confusing.


So with all honesty there is not much change, not really much more clarity, the experience / felling of some sort of contraction or tightness, tension, being stuck - all that is still here, which is frustrating and confusing.


What changed so is apparently a new established habit to question everything - assumptions, believes, stories, sometimes even sensory experiences (what/what is experiencing, is it direct experience or story/description?).
By naw it is more like habitual tendency with not really much effort.


I hope that the skype session with Jon has been helpful.
...
NB : about taking video sessions with Jon, it is helpful for you.

The skype session with Jon was not really a guidance session, it was more like „get-to-now“ session.

But it has to be mentioned that live skype session indeed appears to be more direct, more immediate, much quicker and less confusing.

Considering this would you advise to arrange a real video guidance sessions with Jon or trust more the process on this forum?


Best wishes

-

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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:35 pm

Hi Niko

I see that you are more leaning to the video sessions with Jon. Let me know about closing this thread.

Warissem

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:56 pm

Hi Warissem

I see that you are more leaning to the video sessions with Jon.

And from your perspective:

Do you „feel“ any real changes and progress?

Can you honestly anticipate (not a prediction or expectation, but more like a feeling based on an exchange on this forum) that any noticeable change in progress can be made in the next couple of weeks (days)?



Please give your fair assessment, promise it will not be taken personally.

Many many thanks for the time you spend guiding here but it would be not fair to waste your time.


Thank you so much for your time and your patience.
-

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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:24 pm

Hi Niko
Do you „feel“ any real changes and progress?
During a period you were swallowing in thoughts. Then you begin to look at direct experience, you have gone through the whole process here. Anyway, you can continue to work on the exercises I have given.
Can you honestly anticipate (not a prediction or expectation, but more like a feeling based on an exchange on this forum) that any noticeable change in progress can be made in the next couple of weeks (days)?
What are the changes which are expected ? Can you elaborate ?
Who wants to know ?

Warissem

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Niko
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby Niko » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:00 pm

Hi Warissem

Anyway, you can continue to work on the exercises I have given.

Indeed the last few days it was often that this sort of contemplations and especially exercises directed to more awareness of direct experiences have been exercised. There is no complete clarity or same sort of unquestionable certainty, but it is some sort of process, apparently.


What are the changes which are expected ?
Can you elaborate ?
Who wants to know ?

To be completely honest, it is not a distinct expectation, not some sort of concrete piece of knowledge.

This is more like genuine curiosity about some sort of experience
= „everything is the same but experienced completely different“
(not a change in state = assumption to be questioned?),
reported by so many „gate crushers'', as a opposite to the experience at the moment, which is more like tension, contraction
(there is awareness of this experiences and they do not have to be „personal“ experiences = experienced by separate self, apparently still a strong resistance against something, no real clarity),
and with intensity of this experience lately
(watching many many hours of Jim Newman videos or reading Tony Parsons or Richard Sylvester over and over again - it is not a deliberate conscious choice here, it is more like drive, longing)
it „can not be'' (assumption to be questioned?) „natural“ state of being (jet another assumption?).

To sum up all that has been said - the experience is more like an intuitive drive
(it is more like a preference and not a deliberate choice of separate self, no apparent control here)
to stop all „needing / longing“ to change anything (expectations, knowledge, states).


Best wishes
-

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warissem
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Re: Looking for guide to assist direct realisation and ending the constant searching

Postby warissem » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:05 pm

Good morning

I cannot dot the looking in your place, you have to do it. I have given exercises which must be done seriously and with honesty : it means Looking at direct experience. An example : in this moment, there is a screen, reading and understanding happening, hands and parts of the arms are seen, a part of a table is seen, sensations in the body, sounds, ... All what is described here is KNOWN. But an I, a me, a seer is not here doing all this stuff. Look if there is a you, Niko, doing the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, the tasting, the knowing of sensations and thoughts, ... Look if there is a you deciding, controlling or choosing. Look if there is a you doing all the daily activities. Do this looking 24/7. It could last a day, a week, ... but come back only when there is something new to say.

Thank you

Warissem


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