All there is ..is this...

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jgdapoorva
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:31 am

Hey,

So do you see that there is no separate self?

Regards,


Apoorva

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:58 pm

Hi,

So do you see that there is no separate self?

Yes, but it is not always seen. Most of the time there is living as the separate individual ..living in time and seemingly to forget !

Regards, Shantipriya.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:38 pm

Hello Shantipriya,

There are a couple of questions I would like you to answer and answer in as much detail as possible. Right
Yes, but it is not always seen
Hmm. So what does "always seen look like". How it isn't matching what you thought it would be?Also, who or what would be doing the seeing always?
Most of the time there is living as a separate individual
Kindly elaborate on this.
living in time and seemingly to forget
Living day to day it does appear there is time i.e past and future. But what is really happening? Is there really a past and future. Look in your own direct experience. So, is there really a living in time? ANd who is really there to not forget but remember. If there really isn't a separate self, then who will remember or forget. Is remembering or forgetting a doing or simply a happening?

It's important that you answer these questions in detail. There could be a lot hidden. Regards,

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:48 am

Greetings Apoorva,
Are you still unwell ? I ask this as there seems to be 2 or 3 days gap between questions. I am happy that you are guiding me, this I am grateful , thank you.


"Yes, but it is not always seen."
 So what does "always seen look like".?

This is a good question!! That there is no sperate self. I only can speak about the 'experience ' I had when the "me" seemed no longer here..there seemed to be no mind, thoughts, there was no awareness of..no one to notice , and just whatever was happening, was it. No dialogue running, just simply what ever arose was it. Was this seen...no, at the time there wasn't a question, a thought arising...who is this seeing this.? There was great peace and , I suppose I could name it as just life flowing with no attachment to anything . This state was here for a few weeks..I guess it was just a state now I have realized...an experience ..and for whom ?

How it isn't matching what you thought it would be?

I guess there is a memory here of that experience that the "me" believes iti be true and wants it back...to be like that., but I know that is a story,, and still there is such a search happening !

who or what would be doing the seeing always?

That question has the mind really thinking...searching for an answer. Who could be doing the seeing..? The seer...and who is the seer..? The person as who else could be seeing. It's all just thought, ideas that there is someone who sees that there is no seperate self.

"Most of the time there is living as a separate individual"
Kindly elaborate on this.

A seperate individual...meaning there is me and there is everything else outside myself. I notice how much there is still an attachment here to whatever is going on, that I am real, this body is real and there is someone inside it orchestrating the show ( though conceptually I know that none of this is true) the mind is tricky...I notice how lost in thoughts I can be...sometimes there is an enquiry...to whom is .....? which brings a moment of ...let's say emptiness...no one to answer. And who or what is this awareness,, and that question is just another thought , the mind adding on more thoughts. I guess I do have an expectation ...I do have an idea...a thought that I just want freedom from the mind ! The "experience " that happened ...there wasn't any thoughts.. at least there didn't seem to be,, but who would know that ! ! I feel like I'm just going around in circles...getting no where ...and there is nowhere to go and nothing to get...apparently!


"living in time and seemingly to forget"
Living day to day it does appear there is time i.e past and future. But what is really happening? Is there really a past and future. Look in your own direct experience. So, is there really a living in time? ANd who is really there to not forget but remember. If there really isn't a separate self, then who will remember or forget. Is remembering or forgetting a doing or simply a happening?


Living day to day it does appear there is time i.e past and future. But what is really happening?

There does appear to be time...and sometimes this is really apparent when there are appointments to meet etc. I know time is man made., just a label made called time.

Is there really a past or future ?

There does seem to be a past , but only as a memory...an idea, a thought. A thought that tells me I'm Shantipriya and I was born on this time and at that year...that I have done this and that and I have labels of who I am, a mother, a grandma..a great grandma ...etc.

Look in your own direct experience. So, is there really a living in time?

When you ask me to look...who is it that is looking ! there is just typing words, .hearing the rain on the roof...the wind blowing in the trees and a distant soft rumbling sound of the stream . ( I live in the country side... very beautiful:) who is it looking though ? There is no time in presence of being, no.


ANd who is really there to not forget but remember ?
There is no one here to forget or remember. I feel there is just beingness...no one to know to forget or remember...

If there really isn't a separate self, then who will remember or forget. Is remembering or forgetting a doing or simply a happening?

Remembering or forgetting that there is no seperate self is just an idea coming from the mind..a very solid imprint , a story made up....and I could say that that story is just what's happening , just a story that will move like the clouds..happening for no one as there isn't anyone to believe. The mind is such a trap...when there is identification.

Love Shantipriya.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:48 am

Hey

I apologize for the gaps. Sometimes I don't have access to the internet.

You know Shantipriya, just get over it. Really. Just see honesty. You are tripping. You already have ideas and concepts of how this seeing will be like. Just drop all your assumptions ad prior concepts. Drop your previous knowleldge. Put it aside. Your years of spiritual training is acting as the barrier. Just be honest.

You imagine this seeing is going to be something big, you will be free of your negative emotions and thoughts. That's not what this is about. Seeing through the illusion does not mean no negativity or discomfort. It does not mean that the illusion will be gone. It's just that illusion will be seen as an illusion. Suppose you thought about someone a certain way. Later on, you find that what you thought about that person was not true. Have you had ever this eperience? Once you realize that what you thought about them was incorrect, does it always remain with you like a state. No, It's just there as a knowing in the background. You just know it then. Is the same case here. It's not some state or experience. It's just seen. Oce recognized, s always recognized. It's a recognition, not some state.

Just be honest with yourself for a while. Drop from your head into your body. Feel the sensations. Get into the feeling. The truth is obvious. It's not complicated or esoteric or elusive. Is right here, in front of your very eyes. All it requires is an honest determination to look for yourself, no matter what. Just ave this sincere intent ad really look, investigate. Just go about your day and see what this "I" ponts to.

Regards,
Apoorva

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:30 pm

Thanks for your reply Apoorva,,

The truth as you name it is 'apparently' obvious !

And hence I have come to Liberation Unleashed for guidance....to find that which isn't to be found as is apparently here already and has been here all the time.

I'd just like to address some of your comments...

You imagine this seeing is going to be something big, you will be free of your negative emotions and thoughts. 

I actually don't have that idea of greatness nor do I think I'll be free of negative emotions or thoughts..who would have this assumption ? . The illusion will still be here, but for no one. Who would see this illusion. ? Life is just happening.

. It's not some state or experience. It's just seen. Oce recognized, s always recognized. It's a recognition, not some state.
Yes, it is just seen once recognized..but who recognizes ?

Just be honest with yourself for a while. Drop from your head into your body. Feel the sensations. Get into the feeling. The truth is obvious. It's not complicated or esoteric or elusive. Is right here, in front of your very eyes. All it requires is an honest determination to look for yourself, no matter what. Just ave this sincere intent ad really look, investigate. Just go about your day and see what this "I" ponts to.

If there wasn't an honest determination, I wouldn't be here.

Regards, Shantipriya.

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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:07 pm

Hello Shantipriya,

I appreciate your honesty. I would like you o take some time off and get outside into nature and watch trees, animals, babies, other people. See how everything moves, wiggles, trees, grass, animals, birds, humans, thoughts, feelings, the body that is here now. Notice that thoughts are arising dependent on what is being noticed, what is being experienced. Notice life, aliveness, and how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. perceiving is happening. It's here, now, alive.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. No agent that switches seeing on and off at will. Mind is doing its usual business of labeling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort. When you look at what is looking, what is there?

Notice how the senses are doing their job automatically. How the eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, skin feels the sensations of touch and the young tastes. Is there any boundary between hearing and sound and eyes and sight? Just notice the spaciousness that is already present. And notice how the mind keeps generating stories with "I" as the central theme. All the thoughts and stories are referring to an "I" which cannot really be found except in the narrative. Just notice that "I" is part of the narration. When the narration stops there is no "I" to be found unless the narration starts again. Just notice that the narration is also a part of the experience happening effortlessly. There is no one doing the narration except in the narration. It's the narration that says there is a narrator. But the narration is atomatic. Seeing through the illusion simply means that that there is no narrator. The narrator is just an idea. But the narration still goes on.

Regards,
Apoorva

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:30 am

Thank you Apoorva,

I did reply to this but unfortunately something went wrong and it has all been lost ! If there is no reply today..I will try again tomorrow.

Kind regards,
Shantipriya

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:47 pm

Hello Apoorva,

I will attempt this again, internet is dodgy at the moment. Thank you for your reply and pointings.

I'm fortunate that nature is on my doorstep and it is a daily activity to walk and experience it.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. No agent that switches seeing on and off at will. Mind is doing its usual business of labeling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort. When you look at what is looking, what is there?
When you look at what is looking, what is there?


There is the noticing that everything is just happening but also it's noticed how the mind grasps and takes hold of the direct experience, taking ownership. When I look to find what is looking..I can't find anyone or thing looking..there's just an empty spaciousness..

Notice how the senses are doing their job automatically. How the eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, skin feels the sensations of touch and the young tastes. Is there any boundary between hearing and sound and eyes and sight?
Is any boundary between hearing and sound and eyes and sight?
I'm not sure if I understand this, a boundary. Do you mean distance..I notice there is no beginning or end to sound and hearing and eyes and sight. When I hear the birds singing, there's just the sound all encompassing the space but as soon as a thought arises and names and describes the direct experience then I notice there is a boundary..".I "am here and" I" hear a bird , where is it, "I" will look for it. It is noticed then that the person has claimed the experience.

Just notice the spaciousness that is already present. And notice how the mind keeps generating stories with "I" as the central theme. All the thoughts and stories are referring to an "I" which cannot really be found except in the narrative. Just notice that "I" is part of the narration. When the narration stops there is no "I" to be found unless the narration starts again. Just notice that the narration is also a part of the experience happening effortlessly. There is no one doing the narration except in the narration. It's the narration that says there is a narrator. But the narration is atomatic. Seeing through the illusion simply means that that there is no narrator. The narrator is just an idea. But the narration still goes on.


Just notice the spaciousness that is already present. And notice how the mind keeps generating stories with "I" as the central theme.

Yes, this is noticed.its so apparent when it's noticed.

All the thoughts and stories are referring to an "I" which cannot really be found except in the narrative. Just notice that "I" is part of the narration. When the narration stops there is no "I" to be found unless the narration starts again. Just notice that the narration is also a part of the experience happening effortlessly. There is no one doing the narration except in the narration. It's the narration that says there is a narrator. But the narration is atomatic. Seeing through the illusion simply means that that there is no narrator. The narrator is just an idea. But the narration still goes on.

I've had to read and reread this a few times. The mind is trying to work it out. This is the narration and the "I" being a part if it.
Just notice that the narration is also a part of the experience happening effortlessl
Here this is also trying to be grasped and understood by the mind !
There is no one doing the narration except in the narration. It's the narration that says there is a narrator. But the narration is atomatic. Seeing through the illusion simply means that that there is no narrator. The narrator is just an idea. But the narration still goes on.
Hmm...there is suddenly a block,,a stuckness happening here when this is read..it is seen but also there is a resistance felt .

The narration is what's happening ..? The direct experience is the narration ? And who is experiencing is the narrator?

Could we please focus on this more !

Thank you Apoorva..there is something shifting here.

Kind regards,
Shantipriya.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:33 am

Hey Shantipriya,

Wonderful :)
Hmm...there is suddenly a block, a stuckness happening here when this is read..it is seen but also there is a resistance felt.
Bring this resistance closer. Feel it. Drop into the sensations. Let them be there. Honor the resistance. Is pointing you to where to look. It's protecting somehing. Protecting something from being seen. Gently ask the resistance what it is protecting. Let it speak. Thank it for sharing its voice with you. Then what is there behind the resistance? Is there anything there that needs protection?
how the mind grasps and takes hold of the direct experience, taking ownership. When I look to find what is looking
What mind you are talking about?
but as soon as a thought arises and names and describes the direct experience then I notice there is a boundary..".I "am here and" I" hear a bird, where is it, "I" will look for it. It is noticed then that the person has claimed the experience.
Is there any boundary other than described by thinking? Is not the boundary existing because the thought says so? Is there a person outside of the narration? Is not the person simply existing in the narration only?

Regards,
Apoorva

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:23 am

Hi Apoorva..

Bring this resistance closer. Feel it. Drop into the sensations. Let them be there. Honor the resistance. Is pointing you to where to look. It's protecting somehing. Protecting something from being seen. Gently ask the resistance what it is protecting. Let it speak. Thank it for sharing its voice with you. Then what is there behind the resistance? Is there anything there that needs protection?

When there is looking at the resistance the sensation that is here is a nervousness felt in the chest area.and when asked what it is protecting ..there is not a knowing of what it is ,.what arises is a sadness and sense of loss..
Then what is there behind the resistance? Is there anything there that needs protection?
When I look what's behind the resistance.. thoughts arise, sensations arise in the body ..the chest heart area but there is nothing behind the resistance to be found other than the idea that the "me"
Needs protecting!
how the mind grasps and takes hold of the direct experience, taking ownership. When I look to find who is looking
What mind you are talking about?
The mind referring to thoughts as are they not the same ? Thoughts are arising from no where..this is seen and mind is also nowhere to be found ..

Is there any boundary other than described by thinking? Is not the boundary existing because the thought says so? Is there a person outside of the narration? Is not the person simply existing in the narration only?
No, no boundary is found.
Yes, there are only boundaries because the thoughts say so..this is seen .
No person is found outside the narration,.
It's so apparent that the person is existing in the narration .so the narration is here for no one...it is just what appears ..tor no one.

Thank you Apoorva..

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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:40 am

Hey,

Nice.
When there is looking at the resistance the sensation that is here is a nervousness felt in the chest area. and when asked what it is protecting ..there is not a knowing of what it is,.what arises is sadness and sense of loss...
What is this sadness and sense of loss? What do you feel you will lose? Bring this feeling closer. Honor and feel it and let it share what it has to say.

I would like you to do this exercise.
First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.
Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..
Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for the next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.
Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?


Your body knows. I is a label, not experiencer. Not a thinker, not a doer, not a hearer of rain. I is not what makes eyes blink and it is not a breather, it's a word, that is used for the convenience of communication. If it's believed to be an entity, the mind is confused, the body is tensed up. Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I. What is not on automatic? And do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point to.

Regards,
Apoorva

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:34 am

Hello...
What is this sadness and sense of loss? 
I'm not sure what the sadness is...when there is this feeling of loss, it could stem from that I'm losing all those characters that I've believed I am...and the sadness maybe arises from that sense of loss.
What do you feel you will lose? 
Those identities that have been believed in but on the other hand have known thats not who I am but that has only been believed intellectually.

I would like you to do this exercise.
First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.
I am sitting on the couch
I am typing words
I am hearing a dog barking
I am hearing crickets singing outside
I have a headache
I am tired and thirsty
I am drinking water
I feel the coolness of the water going down my throat
I feel my aching shoulder
I hear the sound of a motorbike
I can see my dog asleep below me
I am pausing and listening..
I am pausing to see
I look out the window and see the tree leaves gently blowing
I hear the wind blowing
I see through the window outside my pink rose has small buds ready to open
I would like to smell it's scent
Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?
I didn't feel relaxed and could say abit tense., in the stomach.and noticed the pain in the shoulder.
Then for the next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Sitting, typing,hearing birds , hearing crickets, dog barking still, buzzing in ears, thirsty, typing, watching fingers tying, pain in shoulder less, looking at trees blowing, hearing sound of creeking door, thinking what to type next, looking at time, moving the body, sitting on the couch, feeling foot asleep.
Again watch what is happening in the body.
I felt more relaxed in the body.not so tense .
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
The second exercise not using the label 'I 'flowed more easily , using the I or me didn't affect the experience of what was happening and the label ' I' was just that, a label that had no purpose , not at all needed for the experience. . What is here without labels are just what is happening , sounds, feelings ,views etc.. label's just describe it., what is seen what is heard, what is felt.The label I only caused the sense that me, the person experiences what is happening.
Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?
I cannot find a 'me' , there is no 'me'to be found in thoughts ,sensations in the body, sounds.and seeing.

Thank you Apoorva, these exercises are helpful , your guidance is so appreciated here..blessings and love,

Shantipriya.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby jgdapoorva » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:50 am

I feel happy :)

So, now when I say, "There is no you-a separate manager, controller, agent in charge and doer", what comes up?
Look within yourself, feel and share your feelings or whatever arises.

Regards,
Apoorva

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Shantipriya
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Re: All there is ..is this...

Postby Shantipriya » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:33 pm

Hello Apoorva,
It is early morning , I have woken early, so happy to be here...


So, now when I say, "There is no you-a separate manager, controller, agent in charge and doer", what comes up?
Look within yourself, feel and share your feelings or whatever arises.
There is no you-a separate manager, controller, agent in charge and doer", what comes up?
What arises is then who or what is here...? there is a search for something.but nothing is found.thoughts are still appearing.. naming what this nothingness is but that is seen too and has no adhesiveness. What is here is space and in that space there is sounds appearing, typing these words, they are just appearing here effortlessly...all is as it is appearing...in this space..how beautiful and there is tears of gratitude and love tilling and flowing in this spaciousness. There is no where to go or be ...nothing to work out or try to solve...just this. ...hmm mm.. beautiful ❤

Love and gratitude..Shantipriya.


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