Presence of awareness

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stefanfoster
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Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:31 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Thoughts and mind are illusory.
The 'self' we take ourselves to be is just a thought stream that we give meaning to and identify with.
Ultimately, this means that everything we perceive is illusory.
We are the pristene, indescribable spacious awareness of which everything is made, and in which everything arises.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to join to be a guide.
I feel constantly moved to share what I have 'discovered' with others.
I believe 'awakening' is a lot more simple than people think, and there is a lot of confusion as to what 'true self' really means.
In actual fact, we are all awakened already, we're just identifying with thought and missing what we really are.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To listen to their story, hear where they are coming from and judge how to guide them from there.
I hope to develop my own compassion, and skills in guiding.
I hope to be able to hope those who are dedicated to realise the truth of themselves.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've spent 10 years meditating on and off, but in the last year or so I delved deeply into self inquirey.
I feel like i've heard, and seen every youtube video and read every book on the matter.
I never really followed the eastern traditions, but any sort of 'tradition' could be misleading and confusing to a person attempting to becom self realised.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:41 pm

Hi stefanfoster,
(would you like me to call you like this or do you prefer another name?)

welcome to the forum. I am Luchana and I can walk with you here if you are ok?

I can see from your intro that there was a recognition/shift of there being no separate self.
and also there is a desire to help and become a guide which is wonderful :)

Few things I would like to ask you.

Can you point the exact moment of this recognition/shift?

Can you say some more about it?

How the shift itself felt?


Does the seeking still going on?
We are the pristene, indescribable spacious awareness of which everything is made, and in which everything arises.
Does this statement come from direct experiece?

What does the word awareness point to?

Are there two things - awareness and you are IN awareness maybe?

Or you are watching awareness somewhere outside?


Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:04 am

Hey Luchana, great to meet you! :)

My name is Stefan, in answer to your questions...

Can you point the exact moment of this recognition/shift?

It's tricky to pin point the exact moment. I think it was when I was talking with a spiritual guide, they were trying to point me to my true self. They said 'you know that part of you that just knows', and it clicked - I had known who I was all along. But I had not been able to accept it, or be honest with myself.

Can you say some more about it?

From there everything began to open up. I suddenly saw the mind and thoughts for what they were, and had no reason to believe them anymore. I was still identified with an 'observer' and felt I was watching everything happening as it happened.

How the shift itself felt?

I spent 3 weeks in extatic happiness, realising that love and happiness was my natural state. I just wanted to share this realisation with everyone I met, like I had found the secret.

Does the seeking still going on?

I still find myself watching videos about non duality, but I don't seek anymore, and I don't really meditate often unless it feels right, or to spend some quality time bathing in awareness!

We are the pristene, indescribable spacious awareness of which everything is made, and in which everything arises.
Does this statement come from direct experiece?

This comes from direct experience. Although I have referred to myself as 'I' and 'myself' many times, this is just symantics. It's very clear that there is 'just what is happening', in my experience 'I just am' - I can't say a lot more about it than that. If I reflect on what the qualities of 'me' are like... I am open, I am spacious, I am vibrant, I am beautiful (even these words are labels that don't really fit!).

What does the word awareness point to?

Awareness points to presence, awareness points to the 'I am-ness' of being. Awareness points to knowing, to what we truly truly are.

Are there two things - awareness and you are IN awareness maybe?

There is only one thing, but mind and thought seem to divide this thing into many. However mind and thought are just part of the one thing.

In my experience, it's like layers of an onion. There is only one onion, however there are many layers to the onion and if you wanted to you could dissect the onion and look at the different layers. Howevere whatever way you cut it, it's always an onion!

Or you are watching awareness somewhere outside?

In 'my' experience, I'm not watching awareness no - awareness is what is happening.

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:51 am

Hi Stefan,

thank you for you reply.


Can you please look at this video viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
of how to use quote function? It is very easy and help a lot while we are communicating.
From there everything began to open up. I suddenly saw the mind and thoughts for what they were, and had no reason to believe them anymore.

Lovely, the belief in thoughts and their story/content has dropped. What a relief :-)

What about mind?
Is there such thing as mind when it is looked at here now?
Where is it?

I was still identified with an 'observer' and felt I was watching everything happening as it happened.
Does this mean that now there is no identification with an observer?
Is there an observer observing what is happening? Apart, untouched by anything?
Does the observation implies an observer?

I spent 3 weeks in extatic happiness, realising that love and happiness was my natural state. I just wanted to share this realisation with everyone I met, like I had found the secret.
Beautiful. These glimpses are so sweet. What happend after?
How does it feel when there is no exatatic happiness, but rather living your everyday life?

Whether if it still FEELS that "I am thinking", "I am choosing", "I am deciding" or "I am feeling"?


Also many of us have the impression that seeing througth the illusion of a separate self is some state with special qualities like peace and calmness, ever lasting happiness where one can be at peace. But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.
It is important to look in this very moment, many moments through the day and never rely on memory. Reality, truth or what is is simple, fresh and always here now when looked.
This comes from direct experience. Although I have referred to myself as 'I' and 'myself' many times, this is just symantics. It's very clear that there is 'just what is happening', in my experience 'I just am' - I can't say a lot more about it than that. If I reflect on what the qualities of 'me' are like... I am open, I am spacious, I am vibrant, I am beautiful (even these words are labels that don't really fit!).
Look - is there an you as a separate entity on one hand and what's happening on the other?
This - whatever is happening - does it happen to a something or someone?

Awareness points to presence, awareness points to the 'I am-ness' of being. Awareness points to knowing, to what we truly truly are.
This doesn't come from direct experience. These words are nothing more than spiritual talks. It's an acquired knowledge Something that you've been tought or read. Thats ok - we all do this at some point. But here we are looking at raw reality of how things are.
By direct, immediate experience I mean your direct experience before any thougth about the experience. That 's why we use our 5 sences to describe what is here. There are also thoughts, but we don't rely on thoughts (we just notice them) and see if they match the experience.
So using the 5 sences we can describe that the word awareness is experienced as nothing more than a thought, an imagination. We coudn't see awareness even we are looking all over, not we can taste awareness, not even touch it.

Awarennes is just a word, nothing more.
Can you see this?

In my experience, it's like layers of an onion. There is only one onion, however there are many layers to the onion and if you wanted to you could dissect the onion and look at the different layers. Howevere whatever way you cut it, it's always an onion!
:-) hm, this onion thing seems too complicated. It is simpler. Much simpler.

Give it another try.

Are there two things?
What is happenng/experience and experiencER?
Is there someone to WHOM experiences are happening?

If yes - please point its exact location.

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:37 am

Hey Luchana, thanks for your response.

I'll try to answer all of your questions clearly! Maybe I have a hard time using words to explain things, but i'm quite clear on what is going on and what is true!
What about mind?
Is there such thing as mind when it is looked at here now?
Where is it?
No there is no such thing, there are thoughts - but these are seen for what they are - illusion.

Does this mean that now there is no identification with an observer?
Is there an observer observing what is happening? Apart, untouched by anything?
Does the observation implies an observer?
There is no observer no, in my experience everything is just 'happening'.
How does it feel when there is no exatatic happiness, but rather living your everyday life?
It feels very normal, everything is fresh and constantly changing.
Whether if it still FEELS that "I am thinking", "I am choosing", "I am deciding" or "I am feeling"?
There is no 'I' here.
Also many of us have the impression that seeing througth the illusion of a separate self is some state with special qualities like peace and calmness, ever lasting happiness where one can be at peace. But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.
It is important to look in this very moment, many moments through the day and never rely on memory. Reality, truth or what is is simple, fresh and always here now when looked.
Yes, I don't believe I must be in an 'enlightened state' or 'feeling of peace and happiness' all the time - this would be more wanting. Everything just comes and goes, the mind may label it good or bad - but there is no 'me' here to own any experience.
Look - is there an you as a separate entity on one hand and what's happening on the other?
This - whatever is happening - does it happen to a something or someone?
No there is no 'me as a seperate entity' we are all exactly the same 'thing'.
This doesn't come from direct experience. These words are nothing more than spiritual talks. It's an acquired knowledge Something that you've been tought or read. Thats ok - we all do this at some point. But here we are looking at raw reality of how things are.
By direct, immediate experience I mean your direct experience before any thougth about the experience. That 's why we use our 5 sences to describe what is here. There are also thoughts, but we don't rely on thoughts (we just notice them) and see if they match the experience.
So using the 5 sences we can describe that the word awareness is experienced as nothing more than a thought, an imagination. We coudn't see awareness even we are looking all over, not we can taste awareness, not even touch it.
I am totally clear on what you mean by 'direct experience before any thought about experience'. Like all of us, I have trouble finding exact words to describe what is happening - I can only use words that point to. I see 'myself' as a spacious, clear, openness in or on which everything is happening. Awareness, like every other concept is just a concept. No concepts or words can describe anything truthfully.
Are there two things?
No, there is just this one thing that is happening.
What is happenng/experience and experiencER?
I'm not totally clear on what this question is pointing to - ultimately there is nothing happening, there is only infinity - the mind tries to label and desipher infinity, and becuase of this creates an illusion of seperation.

But like you said it's extremely simple, there is just this.
Is there someone to WHOM experiences are happening?
There is no one to whom experience is happening, because that would just be another thought.
If yes - please point its exact location.
There is no location either, location is also just a thought/concept.

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:05 am

Hi Stefan,
thank you for the replies.
Yes, I don't believe I must be in an 'enlightened state' or 'feeling of peace and happiness' all the time - this would be more wanting. Everything just comes and goes, the mind may label it good or bad - but there is no 'me' here to own any experience.
Nice :-)
I am totally clear on what you mean by 'direct experience before any thought about experience'. Like all of us, I have trouble finding exact words to describe what is happening - I can only use words that point to. I see 'myself' as a spacious, clear, openness in or on which everything is happening. Awareness, like every other concept is just a concept. No concepts or words can describe anything truthfully.
Totaly. It's hard to describe the indescribable, words constantly faling here and knowing this we still need to communicate. And yet the energy can be felt in the empty word.

What we are doing here in he forum is to send some final questions. I will share those questios and the given replies with the other fellow guides. They may or may not have some more questions for you. After this you can start reading Gateless Gatecrashers book and different threads from the Archive. You will see the different "styles" of guiding so to speak and find your own way of experessing and guiding. But these are details which you will find out afterwords.

So,shall I send those final questioons?

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:48 am

Hey Luchana,
What we are doing here in he forum is to send some final questions. I will share those questios and the given replies with the other fellow guides. They may or may not have some more questions for you. After this you can start reading Gateless Gatecrashers book and different threads from the Archive. You will see the different "styles" of guiding so to speak and find your own way of experessing and guiding. But these are details which you will find out afterwords.
Sounds great, I look forward to hearing back! :--)

Stef

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:52 am

Hi Stef

great :-)

Here are the questions. Please express it as fully as you see it now ans give examples where are needed.
Take your time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:45 am

Hey Luchana, I will answer these questions in presence and from direct knowing!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there is no separate entity of 'self', 'me' or 'I' at all - the notion of a separate self is purely an idea, or a collection of thoughts. But even thoughts have no inherent meaning, they are just interpreted to having meaning and importance. There has never been any separate 'self'.
2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?
The illusion of a separate self happens because there are thought patterns which we are conditioned to take seriously, to believe, to focus on. We miss the fact that with or without thought, we are always already here.

The illusion of separate self shows up as thoughts and mind activity, which influences feelings in the body and vice versa. 'We' identify with this pattern of moving energy. This pattern is like a 'veil' that distracts, or conceals what we really are.

Through self enquirey, I came to see that thought had no inherent meaning or validity, and that in fact everything was so simple. All of these patterns no longer mattered.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
There hasn't been much change in these past few days, there has been clarity for 'me' for some time now.
This dialogue has encouraged me to attempt to express my direct experience more clearly though.
What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
I was in conversation with a spiritual 'teacher'. She pointed to that 'knowing' we all have, and it was like I realised I had known all along, but the thoughts and mind were saying it wasn't right, and they had been believed. After that, the simplicity of everything was 'revealed'.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
In my experience, decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all just concepts. In fact everything just happens, and there is no 'me' here to do anything. Paradoxically, this also means we have complete free will - because we are totally free. But I will not claim to know anything, because how could I?

In my recent experience, I have found that now, without resistance to what is happening, I sort of seem to just follow the flow of things. If I want to do something, I do it, If I don't want to I don't. If a creative idea comes through me, I create. There is no planning, or analysing. It's very beautiful, a free!

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I can't claim responsibility for anything, as again there is no 'me' here to be responsible.

In my direct experience, the only thing I can claim to be true is that I know who I am, and there is only one thing happening. So in that way paradoxically - there is only 'me', so I am responsible for creating everything.
6) Anything to add?
These questions have been quite challenging! It's very trickey to put this all into words without creating and delving into more concepts. It is so simple that doesn't want or need words to explain it.

I look forward to hearing back!
Stef

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:54 am

Hi Stef and thank you for you replies.

So beautiful to read them.

A fellow gudie has questions for you about looking and asks for examples because if you want to guide you need to be super clear about this. (Looking I mean)


So here they are:

Can you please ask him to describe how does he know there isn't a real self here/now?


And to give 3 examples of what he can see happening right now without the presence of a self?



Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:21 am

Hey Luchana, in answer to these questions...
Can you please ask him to describe how does he know there isn't a real self here/now?
I am aware of thoughts, I am aware of the body, I am aware of sounds - and it is clear to me that means I am not these things. They arise 'within' or 'on' me, but they do not define me, I don't identify with them.

In my direct knowing, the only thing I know for sure is that I am present, or I exist - with or without thought.

I just am.
And to give 3 examples of what he can see happening right now without the presence of a self?
Without the presence of self, nothing is happening.

Mind would like to say there are thoughts, there are sounds, there is sight, there are sensations - and on a relative level this may be true.

But ultimately, the mind has no idea - it can only attempt to make sense of things. There is nothing to understand.

If I were guiding someone however, I would suggest to them that...

Sight is happening without them needing to do anyhting or think about it,

Feelings are happening without them needing to do anything or think anything etc.

Thoughts are passing through on their own accord..

And yet, we exist, prior to all of these things.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:34 am

Hi Luchana, I wanted to clarify one of my answers...

I had said...
In my direct knowing, the only thing I know for sure is that I am present, or I exist - with or without thought.
But in fact, I don't know that I exist - I just know, or there is just knowing.

thanks

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:39 pm

Hi Stef

thank you for your replies.

Here are some more questions for you:

I guess you will enjoy them while exploring :-)

What do you think looking is?
What is going on right now when you look? What is noticed?

In my direct knowing, the only thing I know for sure is that I am present, or I exist - with or without thought.

I just am.
Can you describe this "I am" ?


Thanks!

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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stefanfoster
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby stefanfoster » Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:54 pm

Hey Luchana, thanks for the questions!
What do you think looking is?
This question is a bit vague, but I'll try to answer!

Looking could point to 'looking for ones self'. When somebody is under the illusion that they are a seperate self, the act of 'looking' for that self would help them to see that there is no 'self'. If I was to 'look' for myself now, I would only find this 'amness' which is spacious, pristene, pure.
What is going on right now when you look? What is noticed?
When I look right now... there is just 'this'.

I notice seeing happening, sensations, hearing - but these are just labels the mind is giving to the current experience...

When I 'look'.. I notice that there is no 'I' to look in the first place..

Just this beautiful, spacious, openess.
I just am.
Can you describe this "I am" ?
Words really fall away with this question. The mind would describe it as beautiful, open, spacious, blissful, pristene..

But really it's indescribable... I could say it's 'all encompassing' and it's 'balanced'.

It isn't a thing, it's a verb - it's a knowing.

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Luchana
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Re: Presence of awareness

Postby Luchana » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:39 am

Hi Stef,

thank you for your replies.

the other guides have no other questions for you which means that you crashed the Gateless Gate so to speak. But as you already know - there is no one to crash the gate, there is no gate even :-)
Keep an eye for a private message from the admin. Your name will turns into blue at some point and than into red. Before that you will have to fill a form (maybe the admin can assist here let me ask) to become a guide, ask for a mentor and jump into the guiding.

There are lot of possibilities to continue investigation in the forum and also in FB, where is an aftercare group and a guiding group - I will waiting to for you there if you decide to join.

It has been a pleasure and joy to accompany you here. Thank you for the trust, for your openness and willingness to look and clarify the initial seeing.

Here is my fb profile so we can keep in touch.

https://www.facebook.com/luchana.uzunova

Much love
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.


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