How to stop searching

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:25 pm

Hi Jon!
It's worth examining this. Notice these occasions when these thoughts appear. Is there s feeling as such?

What is a feeling? Is it an energetic sensation plus the narrative that "I feel"?
I wouldn't even say there is an energetic sensation. It's only a thought and that's all.
But also I think the main issue is fear of seeing that there is no self. You have been tottering around the edge of this for a while, almost making the last step.

What do you feel Nastia?
I agree, Jon. This is the thing I wrote in my very first message, answering first five questions. And this is what I am walking around all the time.

I don't even see this fear. Or I think that I don't =) Snd that's why it's harder to address.

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:18 pm

Hi Nastia[


quote]. I think I have fears of how will I live after seeing. I've heard an read a lot that people can feel lost or like babies after awakening. I understand that you cannot help me with my life, still I have a hope that through conversation I will be able to see that there is nothing to be afraid of.
[/quote]

Is the above , from your first reply, what you were referencing?

Perhaps we can look at these fears and begin to see that it's possible to relax ? That nothing will actually be hurt?

Is it how things will be after "seeing" that is still an anxiety? If so let's look at this.

Do you expect to feel lost ?

Is there a worry that something will be lost or damaged ?

Say as much as you need. Don't be afraid of repeating yourself and don't be afraid of writing too much

Love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:46 pm

Hi Jon!
Say as much as you need. Don't be afraid of repeating yourself and don't be afraid of writing too much
I'm often being brief because while I type, something that I said before becomes "not true". I understand that I don't see it like this anymore and I don't see the need to discuss it, because it was written more from “intellectual guessing” than from seeing. And I didn't want to leave all the depiction of process of my looking or sometimes “trying to look” because it often looks messy and misleading. But I understand that it also could be useful.
. I think I have fears of how will I live after seeing. I've heard an read a lot that people can feel lost or like babies after awakening. I understand that you cannot help me with my life, still I have a hope that through conversation I will be able to see that there is nothing to be afraid of.
Is the above , from your first reply, what you were referencing?
Yes, this is it.
Perhaps we can look at these fears and begin to see that it's possible to relax ? That nothing will actually be hurt?

Is it how things will be after "seeing" that is still an anxiety? If so let's look at this.
Well, now there are such thoughts-fears:
“I don't know what to expect”. Unknown frightens
“I am afraid of not seeing” as well, since it would make me incapable in general. =) This thought makes me smile, because it looks like nonsense. Somehow it reminds me of Escher’s impossible cube or Möbius strip. How could I be incapable of something when there is no I in the first place? And even if there would be – does it even matter is it capable of something or not?

“My husband feels anxious about my spiritual search, it will make him very unstable” – when I look into this thought I understand that most likely it will change nothing or could make “our relationships” better because I assume that my attitude could possibly change. Or make me more “emphatic” if it will change anything at all. Probably it wouldn't. Then why to search at all? If nothing changes why yo make so much effort?

And I assume that this effort most likely prevents me from actually seeing. I don't know why I think like I need it so much. Who is searching if there is nobody? How does this process look like in reality?

There is another thought:

“Am I trying to escape real life or sufferings or something else with this?” On the one hand I assume that seeing will vice verse to live on it's fullest, on the other hand there are so much “people around me” who says that this is an attempt to run away from real life and sufferings. And I think that I’m hearing that all the time because it's my inner fear. The thought which I don’t want to see as my own, that's why others bring it to me.
Do you expect to feel lost ?
Well, I actually don't expect it exactly, but I don't know what to expect. I think that I approach it quite slowly and gradually not to feel lost and to be shocked. But at the same time I don't know what exactly to expect. Andhow not to expect anything at all.
Is there a worry that something will be lost or damaged ?
Yes, well, I now understand that I'm probably afraid about my family accepting me with my new vision. Husband, father, less worried about mother, but still, mother-in-law. I don't think I will tell everyone around me what I’ve seen and understood, but what if I won't be able to keep quiet about it? =) But most of all my husband’s attitude bothers me. I see that he is afraid of my searching. I don't know what am I afraid of. To run my family and my daughter’s life? =) To hurt her? To hurt my husband and become totally strangers. I understand that no-self is probably more about seeing that there is no strangers at all. But he won't see it =) We will have less common ground.

Actually, there is a fear in general to be lonely. That the whole world won't understand and accept me.

I think that's all for now

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:23 pm

Hi Nastia
. Yes, well, I now understand that I'm probably afraid about my family accepting me with my new vision. Husband, father, less worried about mother, but still, mother-in-law. I don't think I will tell everyone around me what I’ve seen and understood, but what if I won't be able to keep quiet about it? =) But most of all my husband’s attitude bothers me. I see that he is afraid of my searching. I don't know what am I afraid of. To run my family and my daughter’s life? =) To hurt her? To hurt my husband and become totally strangers. I understand that no-self is probably more about seeing that there is no strangers at all. But he won't see it =) We will have less common ground.
I completely understand these reservations. Family members may not be interested in no self. My own wife told me it was "really stupid" but she has no interest or inclination to look at no self. I didn't spend very long trying to tell my family about, it but we are all still together.

There are people around who are interested. There are people who really want to "see" and to be guided to look for themselves.

Only you can answer whether your fears are founded. When fear appears it is usually a protective reflex, as we have spoken about. Try thanking the fear for appearing. It wants to be noticed. Give it a big hug and see if it has anything to say?

You could try to explain that there's nothing to fear because nobody will be harmed by this inquiry?

But it could be very good to look at whether the fears are founded, whether it's a warning to stop now because damage to relationships is actually possible? Is it possible to look further behind these fears to see what's there?

On the other hand it may be like a little protective doggie that is running around you barking loudly because of an imagined danger, but one that will never actually materialise? It might be possible to thank the fear and calm it down and give it a hug and explain that it's ok. It can afford to relax.

Let me know how it goes?

With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:01 am

Hi Jon!
But it could be very good to look at whether the fears are founded, whether it's a warning to stop now because damage to relationships is actually possible? Is it possible to look further behind these fears to see what's there?
You know, I can't really find any real foundation behind this. It looks like any threat is imaginary (except for the bear that chases you in the woods, but I don't see here one).

Everything is going on like it should be. Currently I don't see real signs to stop.
When fear appears it is usually a protective reflex, as we have spoken about. Try thanking the fear for appearing. It wants to be noticed. Give it a big hug and see if it has anything to say?

You could try to explain that there's nothing to fear because nobody will be harmed by this inquiry?
It's interesting. At first when I was trying to look at this fear it "ran away", I wasn't able to "locate" it or see it.

Later it felt like uncomfortable vibration in the upper part of the body. And it said that it's afraid of going through other people's experience. Actually it was more like at first I saw that it's impossible to have other's experience (or let's say that this possibility is very low) and the second was the fear itself.

A lot of different expectations came. "It will be like it was with X", "No, I'll have completely different experience" (also expectation), "It will be mild". And all of them assume some kind of different experiences. =))) Should there be some kind of experience at all? "Well, most probably yes" – also an expectation.

Also, the thought "I want to be better than whose who sleep" appears quite often. I don't know whether it's appearing bothers me a lot. At first it seems to "prevent me from waking up", but later this assumption of preventing also is seen as a thought.

Actually, I see that there is a fear of unknown. I thanked it for worrying and gave it a big hug. Noone to protect. And actually every single next second is unpredictable. If there is such a thing as next second. =) Probably not, isn't it?

I wouldn't say that this fear dissapeared, but it doesn't occupy attention. Ir floats in the space like a flat image.

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:11 pm

Hi Nastia
. You know, I can't really find any real foundation behind this. It looks like any threat is imaginary (except for the bear that chases you in the woods, but I don't see here one).
Ha ha that's true!
. Everything is going on like it should be. Currently I don't see real signs to stop.
Ok good.
. It's interesting. At first when I was trying to look at this fear it "ran away", I wasn't able to "locate" it or see it.
Yes. That is interesting.
. Actually, I see that there is a fear of unknown. I thanked it for worrying and gave it a big hug. Noone to protect. And actually every single next second is unpredictable. If there is such a thing as next second. =) Probably not, isn't it
Yes that seems to be true, doesn't it? Every next moment is impossible to predict. Predictions appear sometimes but what is actually happening has its own sort of life.

It cannot be predicted how no self will be experienced.

Would you say that in not predicting how things should happen in the next moment leaves things to be seen as they actually are?



Love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:26 pm

Hi Jon!
Would you say that in not predicting how things should happen in the next moment leaves things to be seen as they actually are?
Well, I could say so. But it needs effort all the time "not to predict". But when I don't it's like paying all the attention to the moment, to senses. But usually only to one of them.

Also I wanted to tell you – lately I sometimes have catched the feeling like I'm always stationary or fixed, but everything moves around me. When I'm walking or driving it's not me who moves, but the street moves around me. And the same with time.

Like all this life is the dream of consciousness, which doesn't move anywhere. And everything is a thought/imagination. This body as well. When you dream, you think that your body is tangible. But it’s tangible only because you are dreaming.

I don't know what to add more today, Jon

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:12 pm

Hi Nastia

. Would you say that in not predicting how things should happen in the next moment leaves things to be seen as they actually are?
Well, I could say so. But it needs effort all the time "not to predict". But when I don't it's like paying all the attention to the moment, to senses. But usually only to one of them.
I did not mean effort. Another way for me to phrase this would be :. "predicting how things should happen is part of being alive but what if predictions are seen to be fiction? Like fantasy or guessing?

What does actually happen is known by it's happening . The sun shines on your face, the sound of water is heard, the colours of a butterfly are seen, for real. No effort is required for these things to actually happen. whether they are noticed or not.

But do you see that prediction is thinking about how things should/should not happen whilst it's always possible just to notice what IS happening,?

Love

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:40 am

Hi Nastia


I noticed an error in what I wrote
. But do you see that prediction is thinking about how things should/should not happen whilst it's always possible just to notice what IS happening,?
This should have been:

"...prediction is thinking about how things should or should not , will or will not happen . It's always possible to notice what is actually happening



with love

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:48 pm

Hi Jon!
But do you see that prediction is thinking about how things should or should not , will or will not happen . It's always possible to notice what is actually happening
When you put it like this it sounds much easier.

I actually didn't get the major difference between how you wrote it at first and later. But the second version sounds a little easier to understand.

As for the answer — sure, I do see that predictions are always thoughts. And sure, it's always possible to notice what is actually happening and distinguish between reality and thoughts/predictions/assumptions. At least it seems so.

What else should I say?

Love,

Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:28 am

Hi Nastia
. What else should I say?
Yes, of course. What I was pointing was kind of obvious but it was because you said this:

. But it needs effort all the time "not to predict
But does it really?

Can we please look at this together?

I see

"Effort" could be imagined to be needed if it is also imagined that a someone, "Nastia", has to try to "not predict".

But what if predictions are not made by a self , but instead just happen, as thoughts appear, and cannot be prevented?

Who, then, has to "make effort all the time to not predict"?

Who is compelled to take the predictions seriously anyway?

Please check this out during your day a few times to find out what the truth is?
. Like all this life is the dream of consciousness, which doesn't move anywhere. And everything is a thought/imagination. This body as well. When you dream, you think that your body is tangible. But it’s tangible only because you are dreaming.
Beautiful.


with love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:52 pm

Hi Jon!
What I was pointing was kind of obvious but it was because you said this:
But it needs effort all the time "not to predict
But does it really?
That's why I said that "when you put it like this it sounds much easier". Because when there is no need to try not to predict it takes a lot of tension away. Prediction just happens. As any other thought. No one calls for it, no one creates it, no one can prevent it from appearing. It just appears and that's all. There is no fault in it.
Who, then, has to "make effort all the time to not predict"?

Who is compelled to take the predictions seriously anyway?
No one has to make effort. There os no one who would make this prediction. It just appears. That's it. So no one can stop it from appearing. At leastI can't find anyone.

And no one is compelled to take them seriously. As the attention is all inside the thought, it seems to be similar to unconscious dream. Thoughts' subject seem to be real. Like when you an unconscious dream, you don't realize it is not the objective reality. And as the attention goes outside of the thought and there is the recognition of that being a thought and its subject is imagined only, the dream becomes lucid.

It was a little hard to make myself clear enough in the last paragraph. Please, let me know of it does make sense.

Love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:02 pm

Hi Nastia
. It was a little hard to make myself clear enough in the last paragraph. Please, let me know if it does make sense.
I think that you said it all quite clearly.
. And as the attention goes outside of the thought and there is the recognition of that being a thought
I know what you're saying here and it's good but whether the attention goes to an outside of thought, (as if thought is in one place and attention is in another place, separate,) I don't know. But yes, suddenly a belief is recognised as a thought.
. Prediction just happens. As any other thought. No one calls for it, no one creates it, no one can prevent it from appearing. It just appears and that's all. There is no fault in it.
Yes that's true.

Ok, now, how would you say your inquiry is going? Is there still some of the anxiety we were talking about previously or does it feel as though that has been addressed and you're relaxed now?

Do let me know?

Love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:29 pm

Hi Jon!
Ok, now, how would you say your inquiry is going? Is there still some of the anxiety we were talking about previously or does it feel as though that has been addressed and you're relaxed now?

Do let me know?
Well, I wouldn't say that I totally don't have worries or anxiety in general and that I'm totally relaxed during the day. For instance, I've just read a post by a friend about vaccination, and it made me anxious. But I see that these are thoughts. And there are couple of situations like this during the day — with my little one fighting or me trying to manage to do more than it can be done. And usually every situation like this ends by seeing that there are some thoughts about separation in general.

But I don't see worries specifically connected to the inquiry itself. Like worries about what would happen after seeing.

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:35 am

Hi Nastia

. I don't see worries specifically connected to the inquiry itself. Like worries about what would happen after seeing.
That's good because there were anxieties before, about this.
. I wouldn't say that I totally don't have worries or anxiety in general and that I'm totally relaxed during the day. For instance, I've just read a post by a friend about vaccination, and it made me anxious.
Ok. Was there expectation that this inquiry would bring an end to anxiety, fear or suffering? (It's quite a common wish or expectation that there should be an end to suffering , by the way).

Is it confusing or contradictory at all to you that it could be possible to see that there has never been a separate self and yet still to encounter anxiety or fear sometimes?

...But in those moments does a 'self' 'suffer' or what?
. And usually every situation like this ends by seeing that there are some thoughts about separation in general.
Cool. So these thoughts get noticed quite a lot?

Do you find that it takes effort to notice these thoughts or does the noticing seem naturally occurring ?


With love

Jon


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