freedom

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Wed May 05, 2021 8:00 am

Hello Dion
I love that Rumi guest house poem! Thank you!

You enquire as to labelling....
1- Is it sometimes correct? When is it correct? Can you give me an example?
On a body mind level labelling seems correct, pain is pain, hot is hot cold is cold, a felt discomfort in the body, a sensation but in another way it’s aliveness of energy, don’t know why it appears as this or that.
2-Can these ideas represent reality?
These ideas are just for language, they are not the aliveness itself
2a-If they cannot express or capture reality, are they useful for managing reality?
I guess not
[3- Is there anyone there to be dominated? If not, what is feeling and responding to the dominance of these thoughts
On a body mind level it feels like pain dominates limiting activity, but really there is no one to dominate, there’s just pain.
The body sensation is the pain and the mind responds offering to help!
4-From where does the notion of being dominated come?
It comes from the mind, feeling the body is unwell and dominated by pain.
Pain is pain but suffering seems to be the story attached to pain seems to be the dominated idea.
The sensation of pain, feels like it dominates, when I look at the Rumi poem, I see that heavy stuff is not as welcome as light stuff, and he says this human house welcomes all.
Being dominated then is the none acceptance of pain heaviness discomfort ect

That’s as far as I’ve got!
Thanks again Dion 😊

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Fri May 07, 2021 8:55 am

Hi Karen :)
On a body mind level labelling seems correct, pain is pain, hot is hot cold is cold, a felt discomfort in the body, a sensation but in another way it’s aliveness of energy, don’t know why it appears as this or that.
Pain is a sensation, but is it "pain"? Because we need to communicate, it's necessary to use words, which are abstractions. Not the real thing that they represent.
1- Does the label equal the experience? Can you give me the living experience through a word, a label or description?

I cannot experience your pain. Even when you describe this pain, this sensation, as accurately as you can, I can only refer to my past experiences to try to imagine what you're describing. Even if your description strikes a cord in me, and I feel I know what you're experiencing, do I really know what you're experiencing?

2- Can you know you're experiencing what someone else is experiencing from their description of the experience?

3- Does the word "pain" equal the experience of pain? Does the word "yellow" equal the experience of seeing the color yellow? Does "bird" equal a bird?

Look at these things very immediately. Closely. Naked experience. Anything else is just imagination or speculation.

4-If you've never seen the moon before, and I say, "moon", do you know what it is? If I describe it as, "A big beautiful white ball floating in the sky", does that equal the experience of seeing the moon?

5-As we talk about the moon now (which you have certainly seen many times), does it equal the experience of seeing the moon? Are you experientially seeing the moon, or are you imagining it based on memory?
Being dominated then is the non acceptance of pain heaviness discomfort, etc.
Feeling that a sensation is dominating is an experience/sensation/idea. Whether the sense of domination comes from non-acceptance or not, is difficult to know. Perhaps it's enough to know that it is being experienced, and accepted.

6-Do you produce any of your experiences? Thoughts, sensations, emotions?

Thank you, Karen :)

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Tue May 11, 2021 10:23 am

Hello again Dion
Hope your well!
1- Does the label equal the experience? Can you give me the living experience through a word, a label or description
No the label/ word or description of pain is not the experience
Can you know you're experiencing what someone else is experiencing from their description of the experience?
No, you only have ideas of what it may be like but it’s not it
3- Does the word "pain" equal the experience of pain? Does the word "yellow" equal the experience of seeing the color yellow? Does "bird" equal a bird?
No. the word pain is not pain, pain is a sensation, the word cannot give you the direct experience of pain.
4-If you've never seen the moon before, and I say, "moon", do you know what it is? If I describe it as, "A big beautiful white ball floating in the sky", does that equal the experience of seeing the moon?
No I’ll never know it until I see it myself
5-As we talk about the moon now (which you have certainly seen many times), does it equal the experience of seeing the moon? Are you experientially seeing the moon, or are you imagining it based on memory?
When we talk about it it’s just imagination, it’s not the real thing
6-Do you produce any of your experiences? Thoughts, sensations, emotions?
You got me on this one Dion!
I’ve been arguing with some friends who say you create your own reality... coz I feel that it’s not true, even friends who seem to be really into this looking at truth seem to come up with this kind of believe, I’ve felt really frustrated with this!!! Coz I don’t feel I’ve got anything to do with this, if I was then why would I manifest painful things! anyway who’s the I who could manifest?
Thoughts sensations emotions seem to just be happening. Thanks always Dion 😊

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Thu May 13, 2021 9:56 am

Hi Karen :)
I'm well, thank you :)
How are you doing?

Take a look at this:
Coz I don’t feel I’ve got anything to do with this,
This is an automatic and natural expression. You still feel that somewhere, there is a "you" in some form or other.
It may be very tempting to want to answer "correctly", but you'll lead yourself astray if you do.
Be very honest and direct. I know you've looked closely, and can't find anything. But there is still a belief in "I".

1- What do you feel this "I" might be?

2-What is the feeling of "I"? The sense of "I"?
if I was then why would I manifest painful things! anyway who’s the I who could manifest?
You seem to be saying that there mustn't be a you, because it doesn't make sense that you would create pain for yourself.
Then almost as an after-thought you say, "anyway, who's the I who could manifest it?"

I think you're not able to find any proof/sign/evidence of an "I", and you've taken that as some intellectual information or an advanced understanding/ idea to use during this pointing.
It seems you still feel/believe that you really exist. (By the way, this is neither good nor bad :) )
It's great that you've spoken freely, so that we can see that this belief still exists.

I'd like you to take as much time as you're able (e.g. 5-10 minutes every hour/ 30 minutes morning, afternoon and evening/an hour block here and there) to look and look and look. Locate this sense of "I".

By the way, when you answer the questions, please elaborate. I want you to talk about what you're going through in this search. Where there is struggling, experiencing. Whatever is revealed.
Try not to answer with one or two words, or short, quick phrases. It's not about just getting the 'right answer'. You'll end up just going in circles and wasting your time. Let's approach this bare and naked and bravely.
Every time, look closely, directly and based only on the 5 senses. No memory. No ideas.
Talk about it, and describe what you see. Describe the experience of looking.
And always, always from the immediate here and now. Before thought. Before labelling.

Thanks, Karen :)

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am

Hello Dion

Thanks for your communication!
I’m off sick again as my body is unwell.
1- What do you feel this "I" might be?
It seems to be a contraction my body as discomfort and the mind energy with its commentary. When I look as to what is there I find no thing, just thoughts sensation ect
2-What is the feeling of "I"? The sense of "I"?

Feels like a discomfort in the body, sensations. The sense of I seem to be sensations and thoughts about the sensation, again, I’m chasing the tail, when I look into what they are there is no thing substantial to find.
It’s almost like hide and seek, there’s the sense of me, but when looked for there’s no thing there. The pain sensation comes and goes.
Thank you Dion

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Wed May 19, 2021 8:59 am

Hi Karen :)
Sorry to hear about the pain.
Sometimes it comes for a quick-fix through the transformative power of consciousness, acceptance and gratitude, and other times it seems like it takes it's own time to do it's own thing, regardless of what's done.
Ultimately it'll rise and fall of it's own accord (sorry if that sounds unsympathetic and bullshitty).
Either way, my heart goes out to you.
It seems to be a contraction my body as discomfort and the mind energy with its commentary. When I look as to what is there I find no thing, just thoughts sensation, etc.
That's a good description :)
It’s almost like hide and seek, there’s the sense of me, but when looked for there’s no thing there.
Another great description. Nice :)
The "sense of being"/"sense of me" is universal. Perhaps it's a necessary sensation in order to operate in this world. The identity and story that goes along with it though, are not.

Can I give you another exercise, regarding the body?
Please try this.
____________________________________________________________________________
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Please try to answer each of the questions using the "Quote" function.
Thanks Karen :)

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Mon May 24, 2021 3:30 am

Hya Dion!
Thanks for your comments on pain, it’s been going on and off for 6years now so I’m used to it.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
With sensations I’ve no idea how tall the body is.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
sensation wise there’s a heavy dense feeling to the body but don’t know it’s weight or volume tho sensations
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form

I simply Carn’t say wat shape or form it is through sensations
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Only sensations of warmth from padding slight rubbing if my body moves but there’s no definite boundary
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Sensation wise I feel the weight or heaviness of the body on the bed, no definite boundaries
Is there an inside or an outside?
On the inside of the body there are gut noises sometimes aching, sometimes dense pressure sometimes melting sensation of nearly falling asleep. On the outside there’s bird noises cars wind doors banging if which I turn contacts the inside
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
think I’ve answered that one above white comments about body sensations
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly
think I answered this one already with comments about outside the body noises
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
I think you mean the physical flesh and bone body,
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
breathing moving in and out of the chest, gut sounds and sensations, disappearing when drifting off to sleep, tingling of the hands and feet, temperature hot or cold, heating noises of cars, doors, grass cutting machines and birds, seeing the trees move in the wind. So the body experience is constantly changing

I had an experience over 30+years ago on magic mushrooms were inside and outside were all breathing together, I felt hollow, and when I looked at my friend in the eyes energy went straight throw each other!

Thank you!

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Sun May 30, 2021 10:49 am

Hi Karen :)
Sorry about the long absence.
I hope you're doing ok.
I'd been waiting for some inspiration as to how to help you to see.

I want to ask you a simple and direct question.
Why do you want this? Liberation, I mean.
Why are you doing this?
Think long and hard.
Be very honest with yourself, and then be very honest with me.
What's the point? Why? What are you going to get?
Why do you want it?
Take your time. This isn't necessarily an easy one to answer.

Talk to you soon

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:13 pm

Hi Karen :)
How's it going?
I hope you're well.
I haven't heard from you for a while, so I thought I should check in.

I slightly misworded my last mail.
It's not a matter of thinking about it.
Just ask yourself why are you pursuing this?
What do you hope to gain, if anything?
What do expect?
If you see, then what?

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:05 pm

Hya Dion,

Sorry I didn’t see your second message come in!

The previous message really through me! as seeking has just been automatic, there’s no way I could stop it, sometimes I get peed with it but then it comes back, I’m obsessed with this subject of non duality, I Carn’t help it’s my main interest!!
I guess the reason the subject appeals is because I have had glimpses many moons ago which seemed to lighten the human experience, so the idea of lessening suffering and being lighter is the main pull.
I was Curious in LU as many referred to going through a gate, when we spoke in the beginning of finding no thing, I don’t know wether something or recognition was supposed to happen, as I noticed nothing… was I supposed to notice something? Glimpses in my early years were very ground shattering! And I was left feeling very light for months… but it didn’t last and suffering set in.
I was hoping in this looking to somehow feel release of the sticky sufferings that come and go.
I wouldn’t have any more heaviness so therefore I would be happy with whatever! I would have no more need, there would be no then wat!!

I hope this made sense!

Thanks so much

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:42 pm

Hi Karen :)
The previous message really through me!
Great :)
seeking has just been automatic, there’s no way I could stop it
Me too. Being obsessed with the whole thing, and not being able to stop if you wanted to is the same experience I had. Perhaps it's universal for seekers like us.
Glimpses in my early years were very ground shattering!
Glimpses are experiences. They come and go. Realisation is just that. You didn't see it for what it was, but now you do, sort of thing.
I was hoping in this looking to somehow feel release of the sticky sufferings that come and go.
I wouldn’t have any more heaviness so therefore I would be happy with whatever! I would have no more need, there would be no then wat!!
Liberation doesn't change reality. The separate self is only an idea, so when you see through that idea, reality isn't affected, because there never was a separate self, other than in your imagination. Reality is reality, regardless of what you want to believe about it.
Aiming for liberation with the hope that it will fix "your" life, and make things better for "you", is a fallacy.
I would say your being mislead by the idea of trying to make liberation a tool to fix what's wrong. Perhaps it's better to do away with that belief or hope. There is nothing wrong in reality, other than when the mind places judgement.
I would strongly recommend you do away with any notion of any kind of benefit, change or transformation taking place.
Fix yourself wholeheartedly on wanting to know the Truth. "What's the Truth, really?"

Dion

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:42 am

Hi Karen :)
When you're ready, I'd like to hear your response or reaction to the last mail.

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:43 am

Hello Dion
Thankyou again!
Yes I can see that I have had a belief in suffering vanishing in this seeing!
I remember doing vast amounts of stuff offered by non duality guides, of going into the pain and then it will magically vanish!!! But it never ultimately vanished !! Have settled for pain relief now!!! And I love Tony Parsons response to my question about pain discomfort when he said pain can appear in this.
With out doubt I’m after truth!
Thanks so much

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kazzza
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Re: freedom

Postby kazzza » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:34 am

Hello Dion
Just to add, there feels like a relaxation in this seeing at the moment, it’s like I Carn’t be bothered jumping on the same old stuff, as it’s seems futile.
😊

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Dion
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Re: freedom

Postby Dion » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:18 pm

Hi Karen :)
Nice to hear from you.
I'm so happy to hear you're settled on the TRUTH. :)

What is pain and what is suffering? Are they the same?
I can see that I have had a belief in suffering vanishing in this seeing
Who had a belief in suffering vanishing? (Don't answer that from memory. Look and then answer.)
Whose suffering is it?
Where does this suffering come from?
he said pain can appear in this
Tony is the man!! ;)
All things appear in this.
From where does this pain come?
To where does it go? (Look very very closely.)
Who/What controls the coming and going?

More looking and honesty... :)

Dion


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