Realizing the nature of mind

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Magic
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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:36 pm

Hi Vince, an after thought on my side, "Mind created this, then mind should be able to resolve it.
I mean a "sleeping ignorant mind created" it, then an "aware awake mind should be able to resolve it."

Frank

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:19 am

Good day Frank,
"Mind created this, then mind should be able to resolve it.
This brought a big smile to my face. That is good logic, but life doesn't work by logic.
Yes, maybe mind created it, and yes, maybe mind can fix it, but we don't have control of our mind. Do we?
Can you know what your next thought will be?
Can you determine that you will always have positive thoughts?
it is clear. I see that there is a fine distinction between (imagined and lived) the actual / real experience vs an imagined one.
So, imagine this scenario. You are walking in a garden and you see a snake. Your stomach contracts and you quickly step backwards, but as you do you recognize that what you saw wasn't a snake at all. It was the garden hose lying amongst the plants.
Is that real or imagined?
Still looking deeply into the conflicts / advantages / disadvantages of saying definitely no and letting things take their course without the treatment / operation.
This inner conflict is having a degrading effect on your immune system. i would be reading everything i could about stimulating my immune system.
As for an operation, there are many things to consider. Like, has the lymph system spread the cancer to other organs. If this is advanced, there is not much value in having the original cancer removed.
i was lucky, in that although my bowel cancer was the size of a grapefruit and had eaten a hole through the bowel wall, it hadn't yet been picked up by the lymph system and spread. So removing the cancer was a good move.
As far as eliminating the polyps in my bowel, i can only have a story that the fasting and yoga cleansing practices and the self hypnosis, all promoted a invigorated immune system. (but what actually happened remains a mystery)
my "intuition" whatever that might be, says drop the whole thing, forget it.
This episode (the cancer) forces you to face death before you would be as somebody at the end of a long life.
We all die. Almost everybody thinks that it come too soon.
What is your current attitude to this?

with love

vince

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:22 am

Hi Vince,
Yes, maybe mind created it, and yes, maybe mind can fix it, but we don't have control of our mind. Do we?
Who decides, to come to "Liberation Unleashed"?
Who decides to eat healthy things?
Who decides to meditate and seek answers?
When this is not "our" mind, then "some" mind must be making these decisions.
In the last analysis, there is "no one" to be doing any of this, because this isn't happening. Any and all of this is based on "concepts, illusions, words, ignorance, sleeping, stories."
"Wisdom" mind is always trying to bring us home to its (our?) true nature. The one (mind) who asks the questions, is the one (same mind) who gives the answers. There is no "you and or me". These are products / constructs of a "sleeping mind".
Can you know what your next thought will be?
No.
Can you determine that you will always have positive thoughts?
No.
So, imagine this scenario. You are walking in a garden and you see a snake. Your stomach contracts and you quickly step backwards, but as you do you recognize that what you saw wasn't a snake at all. It was the garden hose lying amongst the plants.
Is that real or imagined?
It was imagined and even if it was a "REAL" (?) snake, it was still imagined.
The see-er, the seen, and the seeing have no true existence. None of them can be found.

As far as to the story about the tumor, it appears to be "large" (?), maybe the size of two fists. It has not spread to the lymph system, but may entail the large intestine (about 12 inches) and the left kidney. Which they are talking about removing.
This episode (the cancer) forces you to face death before you would be as somebody at the end of a long life.
We all die. Almost everybody thinks that it come too soon.
What is your current attitude to this?
When were we born? You / we, have to first be born in order to die. Does awareness, die? We were told and learned about birth and death, neither of them can be found or located, or described. Hot and cold and every other thing has an opposite, yet none of them can be found to truly exist, any where at any time, by anybody.
Do you know that "True/ pure awareness of now-ness, neither grows old or dies?
This can not be thought or talked about, but can be experienced.

Frank

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:59 am

Hi Vince, here your Quote / Question.....
Yes, maybe mind created it, and yes, maybe mind can fix it, but we don't have control of our mind. Do we?
So where did the idea reason for you to contact me again come from?

Are you smiling at this one too?

Frank

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:56 pm

Good morning Frank,
Who decides, to come to "Liberation Unleashed"?
Who decides to eat healthy things?
Who decides to meditate and seek answers?
Ah, i call this a language trap.
Only language insists that there has to be a who doing these things. Decisions happen. How, is a mystery.
i can bring out a story about them happening because circumstances present the necessary conditions for them to happen. It may or may not be accurate. (Hahaha..)
When this is not "our" mind, then "some" mind must be making these decisions.
No. Their formation arrives like a thought from nowhere..
because this isn't happening. Any and all of this is based on "concepts, illusions, words, ignorance, sleeping, stories."
Oh, the stories are happening. The thoughts are real. It's just what they are about probably isn't.
"Wisdom" mind is always trying to bring us home to its (our?) true nature.
Good story. What does your story of out "true nature" say?
These are products / constructs of a "sleeping mind".
Yes. i want to imagine that this is something that you grok, but instead i imagine that you are just repeating what you have read or heard. Tell me that I'm wrong?
It was imagined and even if it was a "REAL" (?) snake, it was still imagined.
i get what you are saying, but it misses what i am pointing at.
The reaction was real. Certainly it was prompted by an inaccurate perception, but the physical response was actual.
The see-er, the seen, and the seeing have no true existence. None of them can be found.
Now i know that you are quoting somebody. If it was a description of experience, then you would recognize that one of them is perceived and thus experiential.
Do this exercise & let's see if we can demonstrate;
Take a cup and put it in front of you. Now just look at it.
Notice how thoughts want to label it as a cup. They (thoughts) might also analyze and label characteristics of it.
Thoughts want to be busy so they will keep doing this for a while, but eventually, they will get bored and there will appear gaps between them. They will be short in the beginning, but when a gap appears, notice what you are seeing no longer looking, but seeing) The moment you notice what you are seeing, your mind will return and attempt to label again. Just ignore and wait for the next gap.
This time notice that thoughts would be entirely inadequate to describe what you are seeing accurately.
The shape, the color, the texture, etc is too subtle for words to do them justice.
Can you see this?
Apart from the mind-stuff, what it it that you are actually experiencing? (the seer, seeing, the seen)
It has not spread to the lymph system but may entail the large intestine (about 12 inches) and the left kidney. Which they are talking about removing.
i lost (to surgery) my whole ascending colon, from (including) the appendix to the corner with no lack of function. Apparently the small intestine allocates a portion to do the job of the large intestine.
It was discovered on his death bed that my father in law had been living quite healthily for many years with one kidney.
When were we born? You / we, have to first be born in order to die. Does awareness, die? We were told and learned about birth and death, neither of them can be found or located, or described. Hot and cold and every other thing has an opposite, yet none of them can be found to truly exist, any where at any time, by anybody.
Do you know that "True/ pure awareness of now-ness, neither grows old or dies?
This can not be thought or talked about, but can be experienced.
If you were experiencing this, there would be no conflict. Stop quoting please.
Imagine that a decision not to have surgery happens and a year down the track you are diagnosed with extensive cancer in many organs and given a finite time before death happens. Can you be relaxed about it?

with love

vince

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52 pm

Hi Vince, there is a lot here and it is late here, so I will look at and work with this in the morning.
What is your time zone? I think we are about 8-10 hours difference?

Frank

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:29 pm

Hi Vince,
Good story. What does your story of out "true nature" say?


I take it that this small type error: story of out "true nature" means, story of our "true nature? No critic meant or involved, just clarity, the r & t are next to each other.

Answer: Awareness is just that, when we don't know or experience it directly we know nothing about it.
After all the troubles, suffering, whatever is seen thru, and the BIG LAUGH comes, who or what is doing the BIG LAUGH? In that moment, awareness is seeing itself, as just the awareness, which was always there, but not recognized. As you said, "Decisions happen. How, is a mystery."
Obviously enough "decisions" were made to create the clarity.
Hence my statement; "Wisdom" mind (Awareness) is always trying to bring us home to its (our?) true nature.

My Quote;
These are products / constructs of a "sleeping mind".
YourQuote:
Yes. i want to imagine that this is something that you grok, but instead i imagine that you are just repeating what you have read or heard. Tell me that I'm wrong?
(grok, I don't understand or know what this is / means?)

You imagine.......? Is that real? What is REALLY "REAL"?
Imagining is also just that, IMAGE a flash in the mind.
What ever is happening it is gone, the past is just "RE-COLLECTS".
Is there really a "right and wrong"?

If anyone looks long enough and deep enough, they will / can / should see:
An automobile is not an automobile. It is made up of everything that is not automobile, screws, glass, rubber, motor, seats, etc. and all those objects are made up of not their names but everything except their names, a screw is not a screw, it is made up of other components that are not screw, and so on and so on. Till nothing can be found, but yet we still believe and call it an automobile.
And so it is with every subject / object. I didn't read it or hear it, it is obvious to anyone who looks, then they will "see". That applies to our "self" as well.
In the end this is so much bla bla bla about nothing.
i get what you are saying, but it misses what i am pointing at.
The reaction was real. Certainly it was prompted by an inaccurate perception, but the physical response was actual.
I also get what you are saying. It was actual in that moment. If the same person came by again on the next day, there would be no similar reaction.
If you were experiencing this, there would be no conflict. Stop quoting please.
Imagine that a decision not to have surgery happens and a year down the track you are diagnosed with extensive cancer in many organs and given a finite time before death happens. Can you be relaxed about it?
I am not quoting anybody. I have experienced it, 25 years ago. I am not talking out of my a...
The truth is if we don't actively stay on the ball, which I obviously haven 't been, the old habits and patterns come back. They don't die off so quickly and easily, like weeds in a garden.
I had the BIG LAUGH. I nearly fell off the rock I was sitting on at the time.
This tumor thing is a wake up call. I slowly feel the clouds are clearing again and things are becoming clearer. Dying is not that difficult. The tricky mind is the problem that needs to be dealt with. If that was not a problem there would be no need for "Liberation Unleashed", would there?
There is no possibility to say or explain "what is".
You mention the language trap...... The source of human suffering.
That was how I experienced it at that time, I just kept going back in time and thought what existed and what didn't exist, 100, years, 200, years, 500 years, 1000 years, 5000, years, 10,000 years etc. till there were no words, no labels, no descriptions, no emotions, no subjects or objects not even the idea, I, me,
no time, no space, no future, no past, nothing, that was experiential AE / DE.
But we are here and now trying to clear out the weeds again.


Frank

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:35 pm

Good morning Frank,
I take it that this small type error: story of out "true nature" means, story of our "true nature?
yes, it was a typo.
Answer: Awareness is just that, when we don't know or experience it directly we know nothing about it.
This troubles me. Is "Awareness" a thing?
Do you identify as Awareness?
i would suggest that "our true nature", if there is such a thing, is a mystery.
No matter what you experience, any description or explanation of it is an interpretation.
Yes, the experience was actual, but the interpretation is unique to the organism and it's history. Totally subjective.
who or what is doing the BIG LAUGH?
Big laughs just happen. The organism experiences this happening. Mental identification is an overlay (if it happens) Ownership is an illusion.
grok, I don't understand or know what this is / means?)
When you claim to "grok" some knowledge or technique, you are asserting that you have not merely learned it in a detached instrumental way but that it has become part of you, part of your identity.It means that you have understood something profoundly.
Is there really a "right and wrong"?
Agreed. i shouldn't be so sloppy with my word formulation. i was asking how accurate my fantasy was. (hoping that it was inaccurate)
That applies to our "self" as well.
Exactly, yes, self is a concept. Sometimes useful, often destructive of health and relationships.
In the end this is so much bla bla bla about nothing.
..but necessary for communication purposes.
I am not quoting anybody. I have experienced it, 25 years ago. I am not talking out of my a...
Oh, such relief here. Great joy on hearing this.
i would suggest, however, that since your epipheny that identification has snuck back in. (an imagining based on my interpretation of your writings)
I am not quoting anybody. I have experienced it, 25 years ago. I am not talking out of my a...
The truth is if we don't actively stay on the ball, which I obviously haven 't been, the old habits and patterns come back. They don't die off so quickly and easily, like weeds in a garden.
Ha, what i just said...
This tumor thing is a wake up call.
Yes, bit yes. You are lucky. My cancer happened 14 years before waking up. You have the tools to weather this in a much better way than i did.
I just kept going back in time and thought what existed and what didn't exist, 100, years, 200, years, 500 years, 1000 years, 5000, years, 10,000 years etc. till there were no words, no labels, no descriptions, no emotions, no subjects or objects not even the idea, I, me,
no time, no space, no future, no past, nothing, that was experiential AE / DE.
Ah yes. Very profound. You grokked it.
But we are here and now trying to clear out the weeds again.
Yes we are. You/me/All that IS...

With great love

vince

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:54 pm

Hi Vince,

Even since this last post it is clearer.
There is really nothing, this is all dream like, imagined.
Even what are called "actual experiences" are not actual experiences.
There was / is no one to do the experiencing. There are no eyes to see, ears to hear, nose to smell, tongue to taste or body to feel. None of the things that are being perceived exist either. All projections.
Objects that are concepts, with no identity. Names put on things, which have no identity, (like the example of the Automobile). same as with the perceive r, having no identity. If anyone thinks / believes they are seeing, smelling, tasting etc........ They are not.
I don't want to continue this discussing because it will just water down the truth of "what is and isn't".
Yes there is and has been a lot of story telling to this point. Either someone sees and gets it or they don't.
When their time is right, they will know.
You said that, "life doesn't work by logic."
That's why it is all unexplain-able. Things appear, but no one knows how or why.
I wrote this what I called at the time, when I was in retreat, a "western mantra" meaning not from the Buddhist teachings:
It is; all is; "Fast fleeting, formless, functioning, fictional (like) phenomena".
If someone is even a little awake, they can / should be able to see this.

That's how I came to the name, on the relative level, Magical Display, not just me, but everyone and everything.

Regards,

Frank

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:26 am

Good morning Frank,
I don't want to continue this discussing...
Does this mean that we are done?

vince

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:51 am

Hi Vince,
No we are not done.
It is slowly very clear for me that we don't need to play all these word scenarios.

Let's cut to the chase!

It comes down to a "Force-less Force" or a "Source-less Source, the mystery of ALL that IS and ISN'T.

Feel free to comment.

Regards

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:39 am

Hi Frank,
No we are not done.
Good. i didn't have a feeling of completion.
It is slowly very clear for me that we don't need to play all these word scenarios.
The word scenarios are certainly not necessary when it comes to your (or my) relationship with reality, but they are when it comes to communicating with (apparent) others. (at most levels)
It comes down to a "Force-less Force" or a "Source-less Source, the mystery of ALL that IS and ISN'T.
Hmm, i see "Force-less Force" or a "Source-less Source," as a way to give some meaning to that mystery. "ALL that IS and ISN'T" is also attempting this. We might as well use the word God, but that is even more corrupted.
From the perspective of us here at LU, it comes down to identification. What you identify as (or with).
There is a reality that the organism with the label Frank, experiences. If that experiencing reflects the contents of a story about 'quality of life', then our job is done. If dis ease is predominant then it is most likely that inappropriate identification exists.
We only have words to asses this.
i imagine that you have sufficient insight to look and recognize any stories of identification. Can you see any?

with love

vince

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:59 am

Hi vince,

After just waking up and reflecting on my last post, more things came clear.

My Qoute;
It comes down to a "Force-less Force" or a "Source-less Source, the mystery of ALL that IS and ISN'T.
Yes, this may also come across as "concepts".

As far as identification? Yes, definitely. Identification with the past "experience". If I would have recently experienced anything so clearly "actual" there would be no need to present or justify or argue about the previous experience.
Who would care about it, who would identify with it.?
So yes, there is still more work to be done.
Also, on a "word" level, it could "appear" (????) as arrogance on my part.
Some aspects of mind, including memory, can also be pitfalls.

So how do we continue?

Regards

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby Magic » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:15 pm

vince,
A part of my unfindable memory has "re-collections" of the reality that nothing really "Is" as it appears. No beings / no material objects / subjects / entities.
I don't know what your "actual experience" is / was. If we speak of the "emotional" "I", then that is easy to disprove. What someone may experience in relation to the "emotional "I" may be different between 10 or 100 people.
We can say, the "knower" knows / experiences, but is impossible to find / locate / establish, and yet there is still the knowing / experiencing of, that / the moment.
Still looking deeper and further into even how, that / the present moment was / is able to be known in the first place, reduces the bodily faculties to nothing. We can not experience an eye, ear, nose, tongue, body.
We only experience thru awareness, which is not an object / subject / entity, but an indescribable "energy, force / source." Without the "concept" of God!
Because if there wasn't "something" there would be no need for LU, and we wouldn't be communicating, would we?
This thing about "identification" seems to be a sticking point for me, as I don't have the impression, at this time, that I am just "absolutely care free" wondering around.

Or is this all "content of thought"?

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Re: Realizing the nature of mind

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:19 pm

Good morning Frank,
Yes, this may also come across as "concepts".
Yes it does. They may be an attempt to explain/describe experiencing or they may simply be a rehash of something you have read or heard. There is no way of telling here.
As far as identification? Yes, definitely. Identification with the past "experience".
So, does this reflect that you think that a 'you' is defined by past experience?
Are you acknowledging that the current you has been shaped by experience? or are you saying that these experiences constitute chapters in the story of Frank? ..and that 'you', your 'self' is that story?
Also, on a "word" level, it could "appear" (????) as arrogance on my part.
Ha. Everybody will bring their own interpretation to the words. Mine has nothing to do with "arrogance". It is an attempt to understand your experiencing.
Some aspects of mind, including memory, can also be pitfalls.
Yes, for sure. Especially memory. We continually rewrite history to fit our current world view.
So how do we continue?
We keep investigating what comes up. (just as we are doing here)
A part of my unfindable memory has "re-collections" of the reality that nothing really "Is" as it appears. No beings / no material objects / subjects / entities.
Is this not current? ..and what you remember, was that something that you grokked? (or just read and liked the sound of?)
What someone may experience in relation to the "emotional "I" may be different between 10 or 100 people.
Of course, i can only have a story about this, but i imgine that everybody has unique experiences of everything & everybody. My point is that there is no objective reality. (again, just a story)
We can say, the "knower" knows / experiences, but is impossible to find / locate / establish, and yet there is still the knowing / experiencing of, that / the moment.
i see clearly that the existence of a knower is an illusion encouraged by the way our language is structured. i have repeatedly experienced that the experiencer and the experienced exist only in thought when experiencing is happening.
We can not experience an eye, ear, nose, tongue, body.
Exactly, we can only add the memory of body parts together in a story to come up with a concept of body.
Even a single body part, say a finger, is conceptual. We can only experience seeing of color, texture, shape, etc and call it a finger.
We only experience thru awareness,
Again, this could be an attempt to describe experience conceptually, or it is pure story. Either way it is irrelevant. We need go no further than "we are experiencing."
Because if there wasn't "something" there would be no need for LU
Again this is irrelevant logic. We don't need to prove the existence of "something", i am happy to live with the mystery of that. Are you compelled to 'know' about it?
This thing about "identification" seems to be a sticking point for me, as I don't have the impression, at this time, that I am just "absolutely care free" wondering around.
Ha, none of us do. That is to say, when crossing the road it is prudent to identify as a body in a collision course with a bus, but when examined it is easy to see that this isn't 'me', it's just a body doing body stuff.

with love

vince


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