Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

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tanyawilliams86
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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby tanyawilliams86 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:58 am

Hi Vivien! :)

OK. So the body is labelled ‘me’, but everything else, flower, buildings, sky, etc. are labelled as ‘not-me’, right?
Yes.
So how is it possible that everything on this whole planet is not-me, except this single body here?
It’s only possible as the content of a thought. That’s all I can put it down to. Without thought there is no me - no single thing is me without belief in the thought ‘this is me’.
How do you know that this single body is me? Not the other body, not a flower, no the laptop. But this body here. How do you know that?
How do you know that is a very powerful question.The first thing that came up is thought that labels this single body ‘me’ is not what is knowing.
I don’t know that this single body is me and the laptop,chair or trees is not me exactly. I notice in actuality nothing appears with the label ‘me’ or ‘not me’ on it. These labels are not inherent to the appearances. Only thought which just appears spontaneously commenting and labelling divides into ‘me’ and ‘not me’. Not completely sure I am seeing what you’re pointing to but have a feeling 'I'm on the right track' so to speak :)

Why don’t you call the table as ‘me’? Why not the lamp?
I don’t know. Well actually I would say it is because as a child it was taught that those objects are not me. But that’s still an intellectual answer.
The table and lamp are appearing as equally as this body. Again I am finding it is thought that would say the table and the lamp are ‘not me’.There is seeing a thought ‘doubt that all that is is ‘me’ and that is a thought also. Believing in thoughts like that makes seeing clearly seem tricky... Putting those thoughts aside all is ‘me’...nothing excluded. And even when thoughts aren’t put aside this must be the case.

What makes this particular body so special that you call it ‘me’?
I don’t know. Quite stuck on this question.

Only the thought that this particular body is me and any beliefs around that is what seems to make it so special that it is called ‘me’. OMG it is only a thought not a fact that this particular body is me...wow...I am wondering if you could say more about this :)

- a slight shift has been noticed)
Could you please say a bit more about this shift? What is it that has shifted?
When you put it like that I see that nothing actually shifts. Beliefs are seen through,there is more clarity and the truth is recognised but no shift as who would be shifting? That there is a shift is just a thought picked up along the way.
Without referring to past, can you know who you are?
No
Without using thought, can you say who you are, really?
No :)
Look at the word ‘I’.
If you ignore the label ‘I’, then what is it that you left with?
You are left with experience. So much silence… not sure if this is what you were pointing to but there is just what is/experience but no I experiencing.
What is I without any labels?
Without any labels there is no I. The I doesn’t exist and is not real. I without labels is experience/presence...which are also labels ha ha :) There is no I.
Please make sure that you don’t think about it, rather you look at directly what is presently here.
Thank you for that reminder to look directly at what is presently here. I didn't think about those questions :) They were quite enlightening :) (if there is such a 'thing' lol)



Love,
Tanya

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Vivien
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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby Vivien » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:30 am

Hi Tanya,
I don’t know that this single body is me and the laptop,chair or trees is not me exactly. I notice in actuality nothing appears with the label ‘me’ or ‘not me’ on it. These labels are not inherent to the appearances. Only thought which just appears spontaneously commenting and labelling divides into ‘me’ and ‘not me’. Not completely sure I am seeing what you’re pointing to but have a feeling 'I'm on the right track' so to speak :)
Yes, you are. Let me rephrase the question:

Other than a thought saying so, how do you know that this single body is me and everything else in the whole universe is not-me?
The table and lamp are appearing as equally as this body. Again I am finding it is thought that would say the table and the lamp are ‘not me’.There is seeing a thought ‘doubt that all that is is ‘me’ and that is a thought also. Believing in thoughts like that makes seeing clearly seem tricky... Putting those thoughts aside all is ‘me’...nothing excluded. And even when thoughts aren’t put aside this must be the case.
Without thoughts, is there any information about me or not-me?
V: What makes this particular body so special that you call it ‘me’?
T: I don’t know. Quite stuck on this question.
Then please stay with this question a bit more, and let me know what you find.
Only the thought that this particular body is me and any beliefs around that is what seems to make it so special that it is called ‘me’. OMG it is only a thought not a fact that this particular body is me...wow...I am wondering if you could say more about this :)
What should I say… :) just notice what happens if you test this again and again.. if there is anything else other than thoughts talking about the body being me, and therefore the body is special. It’s special because it’s me.
Special = me
When you put it like that I see that nothing actually shifts. Beliefs are seen through,there is more clarity and the truth is recognised but no shift as who would be shifting? That there is a shift is just a thought picked up along the way.
It’s not really about who is shifting, but rather if there is a shift in perception. A slight shift or some sort of difference how things are perceived; and I am not referring to a shift in vision… but rather in perception. Like when you recognize that what you believed to be a snake is just a rope – that is a shift in perception.
V: Look at the word ‘I’.
If you ignore the label ‘I’, then what is it that you left with?
T: You are left with experience. So much silence… not sure if this is what you were pointing to but there is just what is/experience but no I experiencing.
Yes, but this is not what I meant to ask.

We have words for things that can be experienced through the five senses.

Like there is a thought label ‘chair’ that is a name for an ACTUAL object/thing (the ‘thing’ called ‘chair’ itself).
And we have words that give a name/label to something that cannot be experienced through the five senses.
These “things” can only be THOUGHT OF, they don’t actually exist. They just imagined.
Like the ‘monster under the bed’, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy.

That’s the difference between fact and fiction.

The word ‘chair’ names/labels something that can be touched, seen, and when you knock on wood, it can be heard.
What is the label ‘I’ a name for?

Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘I’ is a label/name for.
Without any labels there is no I. The I doesn’t exist and is not real. I without labels is experience/presence...which are also labels ha ha :) There is no I.
If you say that without labels there is no I, then how this statement be also true: “I without labels is experience/presence”?
So either the I doesn’t exist, or I = experience/presence. Which one did you mean with your above comment?

And are you sure that the I doesn’t exist in any way at all?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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tanyawilliams86
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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby tanyawilliams86 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:43 am

Hi Vivien,
Yes, you are. Let me rephrase the question:

Other than a thought saying so, how do you know that this single body is me and everything else in the whole universe is not-me?
Nothing other than a thought is saying that this single body is me and everything else in the universe is not-me. I don’t know that this single body is me and everything else in the universe is not me.Nothing is me or not me :)
Without thoughts, is there any information about me or not-me?
Wow, no there isn’t :)
V: What makes this particular body so special that you call it ‘me’?
T: I don’t know. Quite stuck on this question.
Then please stay with this question a bit more, and let me know what you find.
What I find is what apparently makes this particular body so special is just thoughts about this body - especially the thoughts ‘my body’ and the thought/belief ‘the body is me’. But those thoughts aren’t true….wow there is a body but it isn’t ‘me’...not ‘my’ body. Totally amazed by this..absolutely gobsmacked and this is still sinking in :)
What should I say… :) just notice what happens if you test this again and again.. if there is anything else other than thoughts talking about the body being me, and therefore the body is special. It’s special because it’s me.
Special = me
Thank you :) that is a great pointer! Today has been one big noticing that there is nothing else other than thoughts talking about the body being me :) This was very helpful and very clarifying to see that only thoughts say this body is me and nothing actual says it is me.
It’s not really about who is shifting, but rather if there is a shift in perception. A slight shift or some sort of difference how things are perceived; and I am not referring to a shift in vision… but rather in perception. Like when you recognize that what you believed to be a snake is just a rope – that is a shift in perception.
What you describe in your reply above is actually what I was meaning when I talked about a slight shift but I misunderstood your previous reply and thought you were suggesting that I was talking about a ‘who’ that is shifting. :)
Yes, but this is not what I meant to ask.

We have words for things that can be experienced through the five senses.

Like there is a thought label ‘chair’ that is a name for an ACTUAL object/thing (the ‘thing’ called ‘chair’ itself).
And we have words that give a name/label to something that cannot be experienced through the five senses.
These “things” can only be THOUGHT OF, they don’t actually exist. They just imagined.
Like the ‘monster under the bed’, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy.

That’s the difference between fact and fiction.

The word ‘chair’ names/labels something that can be touched, seen, and when you knock on wood, it can be heard.
What is the label ‘I’ a name for?

Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘I’ is a label/name for.
The label ‘I’ is not a name for any actual,experiencable ‘thing. I looked everywhere and found everywhere I looked could be labelled a ‘thing’ experienced through the 5 senses. The I can’t actually be found. The I is only the content of thought not the actual :)
Without any labels there is no I. The I doesn’t exist and is not real. I without labels is experience/presence...which are also labels ha ha :) There is no I.
If you say that without labels there is no I, then how this statement be also true: “I without labels is experience/presence”?
So either the I doesn’t exist, or I = experience/presence. Which one did you mean with your above comment?
I meant I= experience/presence.
And are you sure that the I doesn’t exist in any way at all?
No,not sure that the I doesn’t exist in any way at all. The I doesn’t exist as thought says it does as a separate individual. What keeps coming up when this question is looked at is what is here is experience,presence,aware (more labels but have to use words to communicate ;)) Experience,presence,aware is more what I is. I is not any one ‘thing’. Could be on the ‘wrong track’ but this is what is found :)

A little fear has come up seeing ‘me’ and ‘not me’ are just thought not actuality. Nothing major but thought to mention it :)

Warmly,
Tanya

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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:15 am

Hi Tanya,
What I find is what apparently makes this particular body so special is just thoughts about this body - especially the thoughts ‘my body’ and the thought/belief ‘the body is me’. But those thoughts aren’t true….wow there is a body but it isn’t ‘me’...not ‘my’ body. Totally amazed by this..absolutely gobsmacked and this is still sinking in :)
OK, then please stay with this for several day. Come back again and again checking it.
The body is a sticky thing for you, so dive deep and be very thorough.
Thank you :) that is a great pointer! Today has been one big noticing that there is nothing else other than thoughts talking about the body being me :) This was very helpful and very clarifying to see that only thoughts say this body is me and nothing actual says it is me.
Yes, and thought knows nothing :)
A little fear has come up seeing ‘me’ and ‘not me’ are just thought not actuality. Nothing major but thought to mention it :)
If the fear gets stronger, then just gently investigate what this fear is about. There cannot be a fear without having a mental image or movie with a story that is taken for granted and believed to be reality in that moment.
I meant I= experience/presence.
We’ve looked at this (or something similar) before. I’ve noticed of FB that you are watching some spiritual teachers and those are talking about I being awareness or presence or whatever. I usually ask people to stop listening to any teachers for the time of our investigation, but I think I didn’t mention this to you. I usually ask this, since when one is seeking and hears the message of I am awareness or presence / whatever, then it’s very easy to move identification from the body-mind to awareness/presence.

The statement that “I am presence” can come from a deep seeing but using a loose language, with the knowing that even this description is ultimately not true, since there is no I in any shape or form, not even as a presence. Presence/knowing/awaring is there, but without an I.

But for most people when they watch teachers making statements of I am this or that… is just an opportunity to find safety and comfort to still continue to believe in an I… still to identify with something… even if it’s just a subtle, non-substantial think as experience/awareness/presence/whatever.

If you say I am awareness, it is sort of ok If it’s known that is not literally true, if you know that it is just an attempt to describe something, but doesn't actually it describe what is. Now and then we want to use words, but as you already know it is always a bit tricky.

Also keep in mind that presence/awareness/experience are concepts (yes, even experience) - or can you find any of the three in AE?

It is ok to try to describe something - but is the description ever that what it describes?

So why am I saying that even experience is a concept?

Is there any difference between the piece of paper on which the words appear, a book and words?


No,not sure that the I doesn’t exist in any way at all. The I doesn’t exist as thought says it does as a separate individual.
What keeps coming up when this question is looked at is what is here is experience,presence,aware (more labels but have to use words to communicate ;)) Experience,presence,aware is more what I is. I is not any one ‘thing’. Could be on the ‘wrong track’ but this is what is found :)
This wasn’t the direction I mean to point. But it’s good, since it brought up your assumptions.

The I exist, yes, but not as experience/presence/aware….
That is still separation and identification.

Why separation? Well… there has to be something separate from experience/what IS in order to say that I am it… isn’t it?
And why identification? If I say anything about what I am… then first, I assume that I am something separate, and then I identify myself with that thing that I am separate from.

There is still a subtle belief that there is an I, and now I just have to figure out my right identification.

But what is it that NEEDS to IDENTIFY itself with presence / experience/ awareness / whatever?

Who is making this statement?
That which is aware says that “I am awareness”?
Or experience says “I am experience”?
Or is there an actual presence that is saying that “I am presence”?
Who is saying that?

Do you see in order to say “I am this or that” there has to be somebody making that statement?

And yet we can say that there is an I… but maybe not in a way we thought it was…
There is an I as a thought character in the fictional internal movie.
That’s the only place the I can be found.
In imagination. In the mind movie and thought story that goes on almost all the time.
So the I can be found.
It’s there, plain and simple.
It’s just not what it believed to be.
Can you see the difference?

Warmly,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby tanyawilliams86 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:43 am

Hi Vivien :)
What I find is what apparently makes this particular body so special is just thoughts about this body - especially the thoughts ‘my body’ and the thought/belief ‘the body is me’. But those thoughts aren’t true….wow there is a body but it isn’t ‘me’...not ‘my’ body. Totally amazed by this..absolutely gobsmacked and this is still sinking in :)
OK, then please stay with this for several day. Come back again and again checking it.
The body is a sticky thing for you, so dive deep and be very thorough.
Ok :) will stay with this. Maybe even longer that several days. I am finding it is key to look at what is without thoughts. The thoughts...belief in certain thoughts is what seems to block clarity but all that is needed is to look and look again :)
Thank you :) that is a great pointer! Today has been one big noticing that there is nothing else other than thoughts talking about the body being me :) This was very helpful and very clarifying to see that only thoughts say this body is me and nothing actual says it is me.
Yes, and thought knows nothing :)
Yes! that is very clear now. Thank you :)
If the fear gets stronger, then just gently investigate what this fear is about. There cannot be a fear without having a mental image or movie with a story that is taken for granted and believed to be reality in that moment.
Ok. It only came up briefly and has not appeared again when looking but will look if it comes up again.
I meant I= experience/presence.
We’ve looked at this (or something similar) before. I’ve noticed of FB that you are watching some spiritual teachers and those are talking about I being awareness or presence or whatever. I usually ask people to stop listening to any teachers for the time of our investigation, but I think I didn’t mention this to you. I usually ask this, since when one is seeking and hears the message of I am awareness or presence / whatever, then it’s very easy to move identification from the body-mind to awareness/presence.
Sorry, I didn't realise I should not be watching spiritual teachers during our investigation and can see why now. I can put that aside until we're finished if there is the inclination to still watch that sort of thing then :)
Also keep in mind that presence/awareness/experience are concepts (yes, even experience) - or can you find any of the three in AE?
T: Thank you for making it clear about awareness,presence and experience being only concepts :)
No I can’t find any of those three in AE. Whatever this is it’s not conceptual - that is seen.

It is ok to try to describe something - but is the description ever that what it describes?
No.
So why am I saying that even experience is a concept?

Is there any difference between the piece of paper on which the words appear, a book and words?
No,because there is no separation between the piece of paper,the words and book.

But what is it that NEEDS to IDENTIFY itself with presence / experience/ awareness / whatever?
Before I answer the question I just wanted to say that there has been the assumption ‘here’ that what is being looked for is what I am. That when there is clarity I will be able to say what I am. Before you pointed it out I did not see this is a subtle belief that there is an I. So thank you for pointing this out as I had never had this pointed out before. Or I heard it but did not see this :)

There isn’t anything that needs to identify itself with presence/experience/awareness. Identification with is only a thought...a concept. There isn’t anyone to identify with anything.

Who is making this statement?
No one. There is no ‘who’ making this statement. The ‘who’,’what, ‘me’, ‘I’ is made up/make believe.
That which is aware says that “I am awareness”?
No.
Or experience says “I am experience”?
No.
Or is there an actual presence that is saying that “I am presence”?
No.
Who is saying that?
No one. Those are just thoughts appearing spontaneously,not created by anyone.
Do you see in order to say “I am this or that” there has to be somebody making that statement?
Yes :)
And yet we can say that there is an I… but maybe not in a way we thought it was…
There is an I as a thought character in the fictional internal movie.
That’s the only place the I can be found.
In imagination. In the mind movie and thought story that goes on almost all the time.
So the I can be found.
It’s there, plain and simple.
It’s just not what it believed to be.
Can you see the difference?
Yes, definitely :) And I can see how true that last paragraph above is. So much resonation with the I only being found as a thought character in the fictional internal movie - the mind movie and thought story that goes on almost all the time and that there is an I but not as it was believed to be :)
That is what is being discovered ‘here’ :)

Love,
Tanya

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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby Vivien » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:13 am

Hi Tanya,
Before I answer the question I just wanted to say that there has been the assumption ‘here’ that what is being looked for is what I am. That when there is clarity I will be able to say what I am. Before you pointed it out I did not see this is a subtle belief that there is an I. So thank you for pointing this out as I had never had this pointed out before. Or I heard it but did not see this :)
Yes, this is a popular spiritual belief. But if you investigate it then it’s easy to see that only a self, an entity wants to discover ‘my true nature’, or ‘my real Self’ (with capital S). These are just subtler versions of the same dream of a me, just a much holier or spiritual version of it… so it’s superior :)
No one. Those are just thoughts appearing spontaneously,not created by anyone.
And even those thoughts that say “I am presence” is what IS in that very moment.
Even this thought is not separate from the ‘rest of experience’.
Can you see this clearly?

If there is a thought appearing “I am presence” then in that moment that is how what IS showing up. Can you see this?
Ok :) will stay with this. Maybe even longer that several days. I am finding it is key to look at what is without thoughts. The thoughts...belief in certain thoughts is what seems to block clarity but all that is needed is to look and look again :)
Yes, please do so. So for the following days I don’t give you any other pointers, just stay with this. This seems to be important.

After a few days, please give me a feedback where you are at.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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tanyawilliams86
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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby tanyawilliams86 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:49 pm

Hi Vivien,

I am writing to you because some fear/anxiety appeared yesterday that I found difficult to just feel it. It passed but not until after I'd gone on a walk/run to get rid of the anxiety plus talking to my husband. I tried looking but found that difficult when the fear was at it's peak.

What the anxiety was about was not doing any exercise/not getting out of the house yesterday. Well that's what it seemed like it was about but I saw later that I don't know why the anxiety appeared. I couldn't find a reason for it to appear. Still looking at the body being me only being a thought and this story seems to be related to what is being looked at.

Firstly I see it is more helpful to just feel the anxiety or whatever comes up as it will pass and trying to avoid it seems to make it worse. Secondly the question 'who is feeling anxious' comes up and it is seen there is just the feeling appearing and no one feeling it (but that was not seen in the moment when it seemed intense). Thirdly I noticed the story and habit pattern around avoiding feelings by exercising and how I could just notice the story without clinging or rejecting the story (came across that 'pointer' a while ago)

It all comes down to 'who' is affected by this story...well that's how it seems anyway. Is this worth investigating again?

Love,
Tanya

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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:42 am

Hi Tanya,

When anxiety happens, the best thing to do in that moment is to be as conscious and observant of it as possible in that moment. To notice that this is what is happening. And as you’ve discovered it, resisting it just makes it stronger.

Just notice that the sensation that is called anxiety is not going to kill you :) it’s not even a painful… just strong contracted sensations… all good, nothing dangerous, nothing deadly, nothing harmful :)

And when you can it’s good to inquiry into it, just as you did.

Who is feeling this?
What is this sensation happening TO?
Where is the feeler?

Is there anyone resisting it, or there are only thoughts of resistance?

When it’s very strong, you can notice DE and ask yourself:
Am I safe right now?
Other than what I am thinking and believing, am I OK?

Also, try to observe all the mental images and movies that arise. It’s simply not possible to have an emotional reaction without a story/thought/movie. You might not be aware of it, but it’s there, you just mistake it to be reality, and thus you are unconscious of it being just an image/thought.
It all comes down to 'who' is affected by this story...well that's how it seems anyway. Is this worth investigating again?
Do you have an expectations that when the self is seen through self-referencing stories and emotions won’t or shouldn’t come up?

Because if you do, I have to bring the ‘bad’ news, that they won’t; at least not at the beginning. It takes lots of time (years) to investigate and undo all the patters, beliefs and emotional traumas and wounds.

And when these patterns are triggered, the self feels very real. So this will continue to happen even when the self is fully seen through.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby tanyawilliams86 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:23 am

Hi Vivien,
When anxiety happens, the best thing to do in that moment is to be as conscious and observant of it as possible in that moment. To notice that this is what is happening. And as you’ve discovered it, resisting it just makes it stronger.

Just notice that the sensation that is called anxiety is not going to kill you :) it’s not even a painful… just strong contracted sensations… all good, nothing dangerous, nothing deadly, nothing harmful :)

And when you can it’s good to inquiry into it, just as you did.

Who is feeling this?
What is this sensation happening TO?
Where is the feeler?

Is there anyone resisting it, or there are only thoughts of resistance?

When it’s very strong, you can notice DE and ask yourself:
Am I safe right now?
Other than what I am thinking and believing, am I OK?

Also, try to observe all the mental images and movies that arise. It’s simply not possible to have an emotional reaction without a story/thought/movie. You might not be aware of it, but it’s there, you just mistake it to be reality, and thus you are unconscious of it being just an image/thought.
Thank you for laying that out 'step by step' :) Very grateful to have these pointers <3 I've just had a look using most of those pointers although there is not really an anxiety appearing now. I have these pointers saved in a file and will come back to them as it is noticed anxiety spontaneously arising from time to time.
It all comes down to 'who' is affected by this story...well that's how it seems anyway. Is this worth investigating again?
Do you have an expectations that when the self is seen through self-referencing stories and emotions won’t or shouldn’t come up?

Because if you do, I have to bring the ‘bad’ news, that they won’t; at least not at the beginning. It takes lots of time (years) to investigate and undo all the patters, beliefs and emotional traumas and wounds.

And when these patterns are triggered, the self feels very real. So this will continue to happen even when the self is fully seen through.
I do have that expectation. That is why I asked about investigating it again in hope that that self referencing story and emotions will not come up anymore. That there is not clarity if the story and emotions are appearing. But what I see from what you've pointed out is there is no one responsible for these stories/emotions appearing and extensive investigation is needed.

Will report back tomorrow or the day after about what you asked in a previous post and how the looking at the body being mine is only a thought is going.

Thank you so much!
Tanya :) <3

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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:07 am

Hi Tanya,
I do have that expectation. That is why I asked about investigating it again in hope that that self referencing story and emotions will not come up anymore.
Why should the story change?
And who wants the self-referencing story and emotions to stop?
Who has the problem with it?
Who would benefit if the story and emotions would stop?

We’ve touched upon this before.

When there is any form of suffering (or story, or emotion), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

We all have traumas; it cannot be escaped. So something happened in the past, which was perceived as traumatic at that time, and based on those experiences other beliefs of yourself have developed. Now, these beliefs are actively working under the radar, and being projected onto current circumstances of life, causing the same type of emotions that were present at the time of the early trauma/wound. After about the age of 6-8, we hardly experience any new emotions, rather the old emotions are recycled, replayed constantly, by projecting the original emotional response to current circumstances.

And these don’t stop just because the self is seen through.
They are not simply there because there is a belief in a self.
There are thousands of other beliefs and emotional wounds ‘under the radar’ holding the whole scaffolding together.
These won’t vanish just because the self is seen through.
This takes lots of years of continued investigation AFTER the self is seen through, to gradually fall away.
This is an aftercare work.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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tanyawilliams86
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Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby tanyawilliams86 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:36 am

Hi Vivien,

Why should the story change?
I can’t find a reason that the story should change. Any reason why the story should change is also story/thought. I have noticed today self-referencing stories appearing and noticing they don’t mean there is a separate self. Thank you for pointing that out :)
And who wants the self-referencing story and emotions to stop?
This is a great question! :) It’s good to look again at ‘who wants’. There is simply no one that wants the self-referencing story and emotions to stop. The ‘who’ is just a thought.
Who has the problem with it?
No one. I notice that there is no problem and no one there is a problem for. Problems seem to be only the content of thought but not the reality. If there does seem like there is a problem that is when you LOOK :)

Who would benefit if the story and emotions would stop?
Nobody...there’s actually no separate one here to benefit from stopping of stories and emotions. No matter how much I look there is no self here although thoughts/imagination about one appears.
We’ve touched upon this before.

When there is any form of suffering (or story, or emotion), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

And these don’t stop just because the self is seen through.
They are not simply there because there is a belief in a self.
There are thousands of other beliefs and emotional wounds ‘under the radar’ holding the whole scaffolding together.
These won’t vanish just because the self is seen through.
This takes lots of years of continued investigation AFTER the self is seen through, to gradually fall away.
This is an aftercare work.
Yes, I remember this from earlier on in this thread :) It’s good to have a reminder that traumas/issues don’t stop because the self is seen through and it doesn’t mean there is one because thoughts about trauma/issues come up. It’s good to remember that much investigation is needed. Some seem to see seeing through a self as seeing through everything and there’s nothing more to look at after that. It’s great that there isn’t that expectation ‘here’ :)

In a previous post you asked:
V:And even those thoughts that say “I am presence” is what IS in that very moment.
Even this thought is not separate from the ‘rest of experience’.
Can you see this clearly?
T: Yes :)


If there is a thought appearing “I am presence” then in that moment that is how what IS showing up. Can you see this?
T: Yes.

Also a report on the looking at the body. There is a body here. I know the aim is not to see there is no body :) There is noticing of the body going about tasks and there is no doer...no one doing the tasks..no one talking etc. It is seen that other than thought nothing else is giving the information that this is ‘my body’.
There has been a little resistance to this and doubt too. But that is when looking comes in handy :) First thing I noticed is there is no one resisting...just sensations appearing. The doubt is just a thought not a fact. There is no separate me so how could this body belong to a me? Without or even with the thought about a ‘me’ there isn’t actually a ‘me’ :) The ‘me’ is ONLY a thought story. That is what keeps coming up ‘here’ :) Whenever there is some story that is the perfect opportunity to see again that the story is not true or real. It’s interesting...the story is not separate from what IS but it not true either.

Love and gratitude,
Tanya

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Liberation this time round (with Vivien)

Postby Vivien » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:51 am

Hi Tanya,
Also a report on the looking at the body. There is a body here. I know the aim is not to see there is no body :) There is noticing of the body going about tasks and there is no doer...no one doing the tasks..no one talking etc. It is seen that other than thought nothing else is giving the information that this is ‘my body’.
There has been a little resistance to this and doubt too. But that is when looking comes in handy :) First thing I noticed is there is no one resisting...just sensations appearing. The doubt is just a thought not a fact. There is no separate me so how could this body belong to a me? Without or even with the thought about a ‘me’ there isn’t actually a ‘me’ :) The ‘me’ is ONLY a thought story
Please stay with this a bit more. It’s important to not fall into the trap of relying on the memory of a previous looking. I’m not saying that you are doing it, but who knows :) it’s very easy to just rely on a thought that I already know that there is no one there.

So please be vigilant of this, always-always look afresh. Never ever rely on any memory. Since this repeated looking and not finding an I (everywhere else other than in a sentence) is what is undoing the belief.

Stay with this for 2-3 days… and be very vigilant… every time when even just a hint of an assumption of a ‘my body’, ‘my physical appearance’, ‘my exercising regime’, ‘my food choices’, ‘my beauty or ugliness’, ‘my thinness or fatness’, ‘my belly’ ‘my six-packs or lack of six-packs’, ‘my muscular legs or arm’, or anything related to this comes up…. Pause for a moment, and just look… look again and again for the one that is owning those thigs. Look for the one that those things happen TO.

Important to mention that our goal is not to undo these beliefs (although that can happen, or not, but that is irrelevant for now), but rather to see it again and again that there is nothing else to the I, other than a word in a sentence.
After a few days, let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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