Needs help

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Vivien
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Re: Needs help

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:17 am

Hi Kaisa,
There was identification as "the one who knows thoughts", so there was an idea of me as something that knows thoughts as well as sensations and all experience. This image turned out to be content of thought, because there isn't something other than what is experienced now.

Yes, and it’s important to see this clearly.
So let me ask a few more questions to make sure that this is totally clear.

Focus on the sensations of the hands.

What is that feeling those sensations?
What do those sensations happen TO?
Where is a feeler? Is there a feeler at all? Or there are only sensations free-floating without happening to anyone or anything?

Is there I in charge of own separate piece of life?

Is Batman in charge of the story about Batman?
Is Batman decision maker of what happens in the story about Batman?

Is story about you comes from a separate self or ABOUT a separate self?
Does the story come from me or about me?

The experience is always the same, coming and going, flowing freely, no one is making it happen. If there is a me making it happen, then what is the me / Kaisa making happen right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Kaisa
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:25 pm

Re: Needs help

Postby Kaisa » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:13 am

Hey Vivien! This took a long time, I'm sorry.
What is that feeling those sensations?
There isn't anything feeling the sensations. The sensation just is.
What do those sensations happen TO?
Nothing there to receive the sensations.
Where is a feeler? Is there a feeler at all? Or there are only sensations free-floating without happening to anyone or anything?
'Free-floating' is accurate. Nothing else to be found except the sensations.
Is there I in charge of own separate piece of life?
Thought stories give the illusion that there is something there to receive all thoughts, sensations, colors etc because there are visual images (memory thoughts) of these things having happened. Thought "unifies" reality (thought about sensing+seeing etc), making it seem like it's happening to me and that there is a self somewhere in there receiving everything. This isn't happening in reality, it's a story.
Is Batman in charge of the story about Batman?
Is Batman decision maker of what happens in the story about Batman?
No, Batman isn't in charge of the story. If he was, the story would be a lot different. There wouldn't be any fighting, pain or heartbreaks. He can't stop things from happening in the story and things rarely go the way he intended. Decisions (thoughts about future) happen, but he doesn't make things happen. He can only wait and see what happens.
Is story about you comes from a separate self or ABOUT a separate self?
Does the story come from me or about me?
The story is about a separate self. It comes, but there's no self making it appear. The story says that there is a self doing things, responsible for its actions and making decisions: "I'm going to study today", "I'm studying at a university because I decided to come here". This is the content of the story and in the story is the main character living its life. Reality is different, but there is always the label "I".
There's also a story in which I am a bad person, lazy and not good enough. This too appears on its own. There isn't a sadistic/masochistic character somewhere wanting to make itself suffer. The story of me doesn't come because I've decided that it's good. It's not a choice, just something that has been learned and now it's a pattern.
The experience is always the same, coming and going, flowing freely, no one is making it happen. If there is a me making it happen, then what is the me / Kaisa making happen right now?
In writing this, there is typing the letters + the story of me writing this and how I should have submitted this a while ago. Text appears on the screen, there are hands and movement and sensations. How is this happening? I don't know. There's a belief that there must be something/someone making this happen. But what and how? Who is asking these questions and wondering about this? I don't know.. Maybe there's no one there doing this.

But then why is there the wondering? If there's no one to be lost or to feel desperate then why are those things appearing?! This is so weird. And frustrating. It doesn't make any sense. Why have I gone through so many years of searching and feeling like I've failed when I didn't get the answers I wanted? When I didn't get it. I've been played.

There's nothing there doing the search. The searching happens. No one there wanting answers. There's just the wanting of answers happening, the being lost and confused happening. Not an actual thing wanting to get or to understand something.

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Vivien
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Needs help

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:16 am

Hi Kaisa,
No, Batman isn't in charge of the story. If he was, the story would be a lot different. There wouldn't be any fighting, pain or heartbreaks. He can't stop things from happening in the story and things rarely go the way he intended. Decisions (thoughts about future) happen, but he doesn't make things happen. He can only wait and see what happens.
Is Batman (or Kaisa) is a real entity who can wait?
Or both Batman and Kaisa are just ideas?
Can an idea wait to see what happens? Or this this another story provided by a thought?


Just notice how much story telling is going on. Thoughts are weaving intricate stories, and add to the simplicity of experience.

But can these stories affect experience / what is?
Or even the story is part of what is?

There's also a story in which I am a bad person, lazy and not good enough. This too appears on its own. There isn't a sadistic/masochistic character somewhere wanting to make itself suffer. The story of me doesn't come because I've decided that it's good. It's not a choice, just something that has been learned and now it's a pattern.
Yes, it’s just a pattern that is playing itself out in loops.

But is there any reality to these patterns?
Are these patterns happen to someone? Or are about someone?
Is there someone being affected by thought patterns?
Or these thoughts are just free-floating (just as emotions) without belonging to anything or anyone?

Text appears on the screen, there are hands and movement and sensations. How is this happening? I don't know. There's a belief that there must be something/someone making this happen. But what and how? Who is asking these questions and wondering about this? I don't know.. Maybe there's no one there doing this.
Isn't it amazing how the story is woven? With so many beliefs, I am the thinker, I am the doer, I am this and that. With all the comments which are thought to influence the story.

Think of a football match. A commentator is commenting on what is happening, telling what is a good move, what has been missed, shouting "run, do something", judging the actions and the players.

Does the comment influence the game? Does the comment / narration have any effect on the game (on what is happening)?

How about the comment commenting on Kaisa’s every move?

Is there an actual commentator or narration, or thought narration is just happening on its own, just as digestion is happening on its own?

But then why is there the wondering? If there's no one to be lost or to feel desperate then why are those things appearing?! This is so weird.
Why not? Notice, a doer or a subject is only ever assumed by language. We even say that “It’s raining”. But is there an it making the rain rain? Is there a rainer? Or rain happens on its own when certain conditions at place?

So wondering can happen, but does this mean that there is someone wondering? Or there are only thoughts ABOUT wondering?


Just notice, that the I, the doer, is just a story told by thoughts. When you look closely, you can see that there is nothing there. Thoughts make all sorts of claims that are not in line with experience.
And frustrating. It doesn't make any sense.
It seems to not make any sense since what is seen is in stark contrast of a life-long conditioned beliefs. It doesn’t make sense for the perspective of the belief system. But it’s totally make sense when you look at actuality.
Why have I gone through so many years of searching and feeling like I've failed when I didn't get the answers I wanted? When I didn't get it. I've been played.
Who is it precisely who went through years of searching?
Where is the seeker?
Is there an actual seeker, or there is only a thought story about a seeker?
Is there someone who is unhappy? Or unhappiness or dissatisfaction is just another story provided by thoughts?

Or when there is unhappiness then this is how life shows up in that moment?

There's nothing there doing the search. The searching happens. No one there wanting answers. There's just the wanting of answers happening, the being lost and confused happening. Not an actual thing wanting to get or to understand something
.
Yes :) How does it feel to see this? Isn't this a relief?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Kaisa
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:25 pm

Re: Needs help

Postby Kaisa » Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:41 am

Is Batman (or Kaisa) is a real entity who can wait?
Or both Batman and Kaisa are just ideas?
Can an idea wait to see what happens? Or this this another story provided by a thought?
Thank you for pointing this out! Batman can't wait, this is only possible in the story, in thoughts. Or maybe not even there, actually. There's a story about me waiting, but no actual waiting happening. Waiting to see what happens in life is just another story: there's an image of me waiting anxiously or excitedly to see what will happen in the future, but an idea cannot wait.
But can these stories affect experience / what is?
Or even the story is part of what is?
Yes. The storytelling is on-going and like you pointed out, it makes things seem complicated. There's naming and judging of experience, that just keeps going on. The experience of sitting on a chair in this apartment is as simple as that, but thoughts keep saying "why can't my boss answer me now, do I seem like a bad employee, I've been lazy today, I should clean this place" etc. They tell a story of Kaisa who should be doing this and that and of other people who aren't doing things they are 'supposed' to be doing.
There's this body sitting here and there's an on-going movie happening, too, of the character Kaisa being 'lazy', not doing the things she should be doing. The story has to be part of reality, because it's happening now. Just the content of the story is a little questionable.
But is there any reality to these patterns?
Are these patterns happen to someone? Or are about someone?
They aren't happening to me, the stories are about a character. There's no one receiving or seeing them, just the story going on. The question of is there any reality to these stories is a good one. They are real because they are there, but the story of Kaisa not being good enough is another thing. An image can't do good or bad things in reality. There's a label 'bad' that's put on to the movie about Kaisa.
Is there someone being affected by thought patterns?
No! Me having a low self-esteem or being hurt by judgmental thoughts is yet another story. It's an image/a thought of me being hurt by a thought, but not a real entity being hurt.
Or these thoughts are just free-floating (just as emotions) without belonging to anything or anyone?
A thought about me being lazy doesn't point to a real thing. The story is about an image, and there's nothing real behind it owning the image.
Does the comment influence the game? Does the comment / narration have any effect on the game (on what is happening)?
No, it doesn't do anything. It just narrates the game, judging the players and how everything is going, taking sides with some players, telling stories about past victories or losses.
How about the comment commenting on Kaisa’s every move?
I was going to watch something on Netflix and there was the narration going on "I won't be watching a horror film, it's too scary and I won't be able to sleep tonight", "I've seen that a hundred times" etc. It was actually quite exciting to notice that there's no knowledge of what's going to happen. The outcome could have been watching any film or series or not watching anything at all. The narration cannot predict the future.
Is there an actual commentator or narration, or thought narration is just happening on its own, just as digestion is happening on its own?
The narration just happens, there is absolutely nothing there that could be responsible for making it happen.
So wondering can happen, but does this mean that there is someone wondering? Or there are only thoughts ABOUT wondering?
The comparisn of rain happening on its own was beautiful, it's the same as wondering and judging happening on their own. There is the content of the thoughts, in which I am confused and wondering about things but there's not a thing there behind the story. There's not a someone who could be confused.
Who is it precisely who went through years of searching?
This question made it clear! Of course no-one could claim having to had gone through years of searching. It was another story about the me character :)
In the story there is me, disappointed and frustrated with the search, but in reality there's nothing like that. There isn't anyone who's had all this experience with searching, there's just the story of me happening.
Where is the seeker?
Is there an actual seeker, or there is only a thought story about a seeker?
Only the story of seeker and nothing there that's doing the seeking. Wow.
Is there someone who is unhappy? Or unhappiness or dissatisfaction is just another story provided by thoughts?
The character Kaisa is unhappy in the story. In reality, no-one there who could be unhappy. If there is sadness, there is sadness (sensation + label 'sadness') happening purely on its own. It doesn't need a self to own it.
Unhappiness= judgment of this moment, thought says there's something missing and there should be happiness. When there is labeling of this moment as 'something' (me being unhappy), there seems to be something wrong and missing.
Or when there is unhappiness then this is how life shows up in that moment?
Yes, then that's how life is at the moment and although there is the story of Kaisa being unhappy, it doesn't make the character real. The story doesn't have to go away. There are all kinds of plans of how to make myself happy in the future by doing things differently, but an idea can't be made happy. Happiness can only happen here and now, not in thought stories.
Yes :) How does it feel to see this? Isn't this a relief?
Relief and gratitude being felt for it being the way it is. It's amazing how there doesn't have to be a confused self in order for the confusion or whatever emotion to happen. It's a relief, because then the judging of the self is nothing but a story, and maybe that story won't even go away with the seeing that it doesn't talk about anything real, but that's okay. This is why there is gratitude.

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Vivien
Posts: 7000
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Needs help

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:52 am

Hi Kaisa,

You did a very nice investigation.
There's a story about me waiting, but no actual waiting happening. Waiting to see what happens in life is just another story: there's an image of me waiting anxiously or excitedly to see what will happen in the future, but an idea cannot wait.
Nice observation :)
There's this body sitting here and there's an on-going movie happening, too, of the character Kaisa being 'lazy', not doing the things she should be doing. The story has to be part of reality, because it's happening now. Just the content of the story is a little questionable.
Just a little? :)

Is that what thoughts tell about the Kaisa-character true or merely guessing or an assumption or just an offer/suggestion? Often? Mostly?
The question of is there any reality to these stories is a good one. They are real because they are there, but the story of Kaisa not being good enough is another thing. An image can't do good or bad things in reality. There's a label 'bad' that's put on to the movie about Kaisa.
Let’s dig a bit deeper here.
The story/thought is real as a phenomenon only. As an appearance.

But is the content of a story ever real?
Or the content can never leave the realm of fiction?
Yes, then that's how life is at the moment and although there is the story of Kaisa being unhappy, it doesn't make the character real. The story doesn't have to go away. There are all kinds of plans of how to make myself happy in the future by doing things differently, but an idea can't be made happy. Happiness can only happen here and now, not in thought stories.
Beautiful :)
Relief and gratitude being felt for it being the way it is. It's amazing how there doesn't have to be a confused self in order for the confusion or whatever emotion to happen. It's a relief, because then the judging of the self is nothing but a story, and maybe that story won't even go away with the seeing that it doesn't talk about anything real, but that's okay. This is why there is gratitude.
:) Can you say that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding of there being no separate self other than an idea to an experiential recognition of it?

Is there any doubt?

What changed and what hasn’t changed since the beginning of our conversation?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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