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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:49 pm

Yes I can see that thoughts,are not controlling the movements and they are just happening altho my thinking on this is that it is just conditioning. Eg. The first time we play tennis we need to teach ourselves the strokes but if we play tennis daily for a few years the strokes will just happen instinctively. It seems to me this is the same ?

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Philosoraptr
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Re: Hi

Postby Philosoraptr » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:24 am

The first time we play tennis we need to teach ourselves the strokes but if we play tennis daily for a few years the strokes will just happen instinctively. It seems to me this is the same
So do 'you' teach yourself the strokes or did the teaching and learning happen instinctively. How did a 'you' direct the learning?

Here is an exercise that looks at this specifically.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes, and notice arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Do not react or follow them, observe in stillness. Try to COMPLETELY ignore the content (what they are saying) and just notice the process of HOW they appear, without doing anything at all.

- Do you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- Could you have made a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- Where do thoughts come from, and where do they go to after?
- Can you predict your next thought?
- Can you pause a thought in the middle?
- Can you stop thought arising altogether?
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Is it possible to control thoughts?
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the "I" thought?

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:53 pm

So do 'you' teach yourself the strokes or did the teaching and learning happen instinctively. How did a 'you' direct the learning?
Yes I get the instinct bit, My feeling is that there is an entity that is pulled toward /directs itself to the learning and or desire to learn. There is a desire to learn. This desire comes from somewhere (me?) Also when learning happens there is an advancement of ability/skills that this entity (me?) can perform more efficiently. To a point where these learned skills can be performed without thought/a doer. (Hand turning over etc) I struggle with the concept of this happening without this entity (me?) Having practiced and perfected the skills prior and built a how to do this/skills database.

With thoughts tho I wholeheartedly agree this just happens answers to that excercise below:
Do you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No they just appear on there own
- Could you have made a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
-
Where do thoughts come from, and where do they go to after?
They appear out of nowhere and then disappear into nowhere
-
Can you predict your next thought?
No
-
Can you pause a thought in the middle?
not as such
-
Can you stop thought arising altogether?
no but I can attempt to change thoughts as an example think i must stop thinking and focus on something else. This is then successful on stopping the previous thought.
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No
- Is it possible to control thoughts?
Only as i said above
-
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the "I" thought?
No it is not possible they just appear.

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Philosoraptr
Posts: 118
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Re: Hi

Postby Philosoraptr » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:51 am

There is a desire to learn. This desire comes from somewhere (me?)
Desire exists and choosing happens, that doesn't mean that there is a self doing that or that with no-self there are no desires. (Just check if that's in any expectations you have).

Describe the mechanism of desire as it appears using AE which we have seen are the only real things in existence.

We can have theories but the only true test is to LOOK at what is happening. We can try some exercises for you to really have a look and see if the beliefs about a (me) doing desire and choice are true


Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

Also when learning happens there is an advancement of ability/skills that this entity (me?) can perform more efficiently
Was there an entity in the baby directing it's learning of language and labelling or was it just happening with the stimuli and directions it was presented with?

If you lift heavy weights is there a "you" directing the muscles to grow to perform better in the future? Or is it happening in response to something.
I struggle with the concept of this happening without this entity (me?)
Do 'you' struggle or are there thoughts that arise with contents 'I am struggling' . If thought arise with those words, which alphabet or sound contain a 'me/entity'

Good seeing clearly about thoughts..the key thing is to trust in what is being seen as a truth.
Can you stop thought arising altogether?
no but I can attempt to change thoughts as an example think i must stop thinking and focus on something else. This is then successful on stopping the previous thought.
Describe the process by which you stopped the thought. Look at it carefully like a hawk and watch where the you makes the thought stop.

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:42 am


Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
I had a thought that directed me to do the excercise. Another thought in seeing all numbers in a line between 1 and 20 , then 1 number seemed to jump out without thought very quickly after that another thought took over questioning how random/thought about that selection was.
Was there an entity in the baby directing it's learning of language and labelling or was it just happening with the stimuli and directions it was presented with?
Ok agree , no entity here just a new life with no me concept just instinctively learning

If you lift heavy weights is there a "you" directing the muscles to grow to perform better in the future? Or is it happening in response to something
.
Muscles will grow in response to the requirement of them being bigger. 100% no me involved directing muscle growth

Do 'you' struggle or are there thoughts that arise with contents 'I am struggling' . If thought arise with those words, which alphabet or sound contain a 'me/entity'
Yes agree all there is to "I am struggling to understand" is thought if something is not understood then the automatic step is to claim ownership of the act of misunderstanding then bolt the whole act onto the end of the me story. I get this intellectual bit though this one needs a bit more time to sink in. To see through this concept I would imagine would be a huge breakthrough. To struggle to do something without the me story and the frustration that that brings to the me would be great. I can see it intellectually but seeing it in the moment I guess is where this intellectual understanding will not hold up.
Describe the process by which you stopped the thought. Look at it carefully like a hawk and watch where the you makes the thought stop
.
Sitting with eyes closed, thinking that no thoughts are coming up. I wonder when the first thought will come up? , hold on this is a thought , only a little one tho this probably doesn't count , then a thought comes up takes me with it, recognition- i am in thought and then another thought saying u r in thought, focus on the act of watching that thought go , focus - thought then focuses on the thought of letting go of the previous thought. Then another thought comes up , either a big thought that takes me away or a thought relating to the awareness of there not being any thoughts. Hold in this is a thought etc

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Matty317
Posts: 36
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:02 am


Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
I had a thought that directed me to do the excercise. Another thought in seeing all numbers in a line between 1 and 20 , then 1 number seemed to jump out without thought very quickly after that another thought took over questioning how random/thought about that selection was.
Was there an entity in the baby directing it's learning of language and labelling or was it just happening with the stimuli and directions it was presented with?
Ok agree , no entity here just a new life with no me concept just instinctively learning

If you lift heavy weights is there a "you" directing the muscles to grow to perform better in the future? Or is it happening in response to something
.
Muscles will grow in response to the requirement of them being bigger. 100% no me involved directing muscle growth

Do 'you' struggle or are there thoughts that arise with contents 'I am struggling' . If thought arise with those words, which alphabet or sound contain a 'me/entity'
Yes agree all there is to "I am struggling to understand" is thought if something is not understood then the automatic step is to claim ownership of the act of misunderstanding then bolt the whole act onto the end of the me story. I get this intellectual bit though this one needs a bit more time to sink in. To see through this concept I would imagine would be a huge breakthrough. To struggle to do something without the me story and the frustration that that brings to the me would be great. I can see it intellectually but seeing it in the moment I guess is where this intellectual understanding will not hold up.
Describe the process by which you stopped the thought. Look at it carefully like a hawk and watch where the you makes the thought stop
.
Sitting with eyes closed, thinking that no thoughts are coming up. I wonder when the first thought will come up? , hold on this is a thought , only a little one tho this probably doesn't count , then a thought comes up takes me with it, recognition- i am in thought and then another thought saying u r in thought, focus on the act of watching that thought go , focus - thought then focuses on the thought of letting go of the previous thought. Then another thought comes up , either a big thought that takes me away or a thought relating to the awareness of there not being any thoughts. Hold in this is a thought etc

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Philosoraptr
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:01 am

Re: Hi

Postby Philosoraptr » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Apologise for my delayed response here Matty
Ok agree , no entity here just a new life with no me concept just instinctively learning
The key for this process is not to formulate a conclusion with thought but to let the implication of this been seen a bit deeper. Try to spend time looking and noticing this absence of an entity directing things. Thoughts will come in and make statements commenting or labelling but those are just commentary. You don't need to follow those as part of this process. Just be in the moment and be curious about how this unfolding of life is happening and whether thought is directing it (or is it just labelling things after they happen)
I get this intellectual bit though this one needs a bit more time to sink in. To see through this concept I would imagine would be a huge breakthrough. To struggle to do something without the me story and the frustration that that brings to the me would be great. I can see it intellectually but seeing it in the moment I guess is where this intellectual understanding will not hold up.
Can you describe in experience what is struggling?

How do you know that there is frustration? Describe how you know it in the moment.

Frustration and struggle is a good sign at times that the intellectual mechanism is trying to reach an understanding in thought. Keep going!

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:38 pm

The key for this process is not to formulate a conclusion with thought but to let the implication of this been seen a bit deeper. Try to spend time looking and noticing this absence of an entity directing things. Thoughts will come in and make statements commenting or labelling but those are just commentary. You don't need to follow those as part of this process. Just be in the moment and be curious about how this unfolding of life is happening and whether thought is directing it (or is it just labelling things after they happen)
Ok. I understand. Yes I can see that life unfold and thought labels things after the event. Interesting sitting with that. The feeling I get is close to a sense of loss.
Can you describe in experience what is struggling?
Struggling is an inability to achieve an expected and desired outcome. Describing struggling in experience is a thought that repeats itself louder and louder in a continuous fashion.
How do you know that there is frustration? Describe how you know it in the moment.
Frustration is experienced as,a thought that is attached to the I am struggling thought. I know frustration in this way and i have always assumed that the struggle and frustration thoughts and the inability to gain/learn/perform were one and the same thing. Now I am starting to see that they are indeed thoughts alone.

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:43 pm

Tho in order to live in a functional manner we require the commentary to unfolding life. 9pm the kids are in front of me . Thought , it's late they need to go to bed , action required. Thought if they dont go to bed now they will heca nightmare in the morning etc etc

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:45 pm

Admittedly this labeling doesnt cause suffering but it points to the fact that if experience is not commentated on then we could miss something important?

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Philosoraptr
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Re: Hi

Postby Philosoraptr » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:58 pm

Ok. I understand. Yes I can see that life unfold and thought labels things after the event. Interesting sitting with that. The feeling I get is close to a sense of loss
Yes, keep looking at this and sit with the feeling of loss. We've been used to our Identity being with an entity that the glimpses of it's non existence give rise to certain feelings.

What was never there can not truly be lost. There might have been loss when santa claus was realized to not be a real person. But does that mean that anything was lost other than a belief?
if experience is not commentated on then we could miss something important?
So who does the commenting?
What is 'choosing' what commentary to do?
Can a thought choose? And which thought is the chooser?

On suffering and frustration. Continue to look at it. Are they just thoughts with content that refers to other thoughts and contents that claim to be escalating in frustration?

There is a sensation component here to, but the point is to just watch the thoughts and not expecting anything different. It will likely switch from referencing frustration to referencing watching frustration. Still thoughts about thoughts with content changing. Keep looking when this is happening, and if identification with them happens then let that happen too.

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:25 pm

So who does the commenting?
Commentating just happens , it appears , it is a thought that arrives and leaves of it's own volition
What is 'choosing' what commentary to do?
Nothing is choosing anything it just happens
Can a thought choose? And which thought is the chooser?
No a thought cannot choose. But it can make you think you(separate self) have chosen
On suffering and frustration. Continue to look at it. Are they just thoughts with content that refers to other thoughts and contents that claim to be escalating in frustration?
No there is also emotion here. That is not a specific sensation but it is like a heavy weight on a rope around my neck. This seems to tarnish all new generated thoughts into negative and weighed down thoughts(aka depression??)

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:27 pm

It will likely switch from referencing frustration to referencing watching frustration.
Yes I get this . This feels a step closer to being free of the negative emotions/thoughts that comes with suffering

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:30 pm

It will likely switch from referencing frustration to referencing watching frustration.
Yes I get this . This feels a step closer to being free of the negative emotions/thoughts that comes with suffering

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Matty317
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Re: Hi

Postby Matty317 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:10 am

Being the watcher is closely aligned with previous spiritual teachings that I have been immersed in. I am trying to ignore this but it's tough to not draw similarities. Understand it is mind trying to make sense/finding a shortcut etc


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