Clarity

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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:18 pm

Hi Becca
That all sounds clear. Thanks for bearing with my questions!

I'm going to follow-up now on the seeing exercise ...you might need to go back to it to remind yourself.
This is part 2 of it, in a way.
Let's move on to opening the eyes now.
Again, address this very simply - The 'seeing' sense only for the moment.

With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.
This might be a little more tricky, but give it some consideration.

1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?
3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a “Becca” be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

xx

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:42 pm


1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned? Yes definitely.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'? No, just seeing colours and shapes.

3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found? No, there is no witness. This is the big revelation.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a “Becca” be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?
What do you find? No ‘eyes’, ‘I’, ‘me’ or Becca can be found. No witness can be found. There is nothing there. There is just direct experience of ‘seeing’ that can be found in the form of colours and shapes.
There is also sensations and thoughts arising at the same time. But much more silence in direct experience. There is a feeling of peace and heavy, fizzing sensation in ‘my’ ‘head’ area. A relaxed feeling.

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? No, there is no see-er. Seeing is just happening. Seeing appears to be happening through the eyes but the eyes can’t be found just sensations of air, ‘blinking’ and movement.

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought? A see-er doesn’t exist, only a thought that there is a see-er. So there is no see-er, it’s just a concept. There is only the seen. There is no knower of the seen, this is just thought too.

Thank you xx


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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:01 pm

Really great noticing, Becca, lovely.

Do you want me to keep giving you exercises? I can do so, but I don' think you need them now.
Let me know
xx

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:36 pm

Thank you Sioned. Really appreciate your guidance.
I do have some questions.
When you asked about how I was feeling emotionally, were you expecting there to be any difference?
I guess I was hoping there would be a shift of some sort but everything is just the same. In fact, I seem to have had more low points since doing this work. I would have expected feelings to arise with less identification to them. Is this the illusionary self trying harder to remain in charge as the illusion is seen through?
I suppose for some people it is a huge realisation whereas for me it seems like it’s been a gradual process over the last 18 months of being around this kind of understanding so maybe wasn’t such a big difference. Unless I’ve not seen what you are pointing towards?
Do you think I am ready to go through the gate?
Thank you x x


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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:05 pm

Hi Becca,
You're right that many people have an emotional shift, but not all. I think you may well be one of those who doesn't.
As I'm sure you know, the gate is really just a notional thing!
What I suggest, if that feels ok to you, is that we now proceed to the final questions. They will indicate where needs further work if nothing else.
How does that land with you?
Xx
Sioned

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:09 pm

Thanks Sioned. That makes sense.
Yes, I think it would be worth looking at the final questions.
Thank you and yeah I realise the gate is just an idea! Hehe.
Much love


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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:12 pm

Becca, just to add that when you talk of "the big realization" and of feeling peace and relaxation, that sounds like you've "got it" to me. It won't necessarily make you happy - it is just the seeing through of an illusion.

Anyway. let's see how you get on with the questions:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

xx

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:43 am

Thank you Sioned. I’m just working on my response x


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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:59 am

Take your time xx

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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:00 pm

Take your time xx

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:21 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever? No, nothing can be found. There never was. There was just an appearance of a separate self through ideas and beliefs.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separation starts with the identification of a ‘me’ in this body, the language ‘my body’ means that we think we are the body and have thoughts of being a separate person. It starts with a belief that we are walking bodies separate from other bodies. When we haven’t inquired into our experience of the body and an ‘external’ reality we think we are separate.
We think we are our thoughts. Thoughts arise that are focused on a belief of separation. For example ‘I need x to make me...better, stronger, cleverer, thinner, more attractive, happier’ this reinforces a need to improve something that doesn’t exist. It is all thought. We know it doesn’t exist because a thought cannot be found and a ‘me’ cannot be found. All that can be found is direct experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching/sensing. Thoughts arise but cannot be located. The body is seen and sensations arise in certain places to make the body feel like a thing. But in reality on investigation it is just lots of sensations arising in awareness. There is no beginning or end to what can be found, no edge, meaning that this is no separation. We grow up believing there are objects outside of ourselves which makes it look there is separation but on investigation we realise there is nothing outside or inside, there is just what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, sensations and thoughts arising. Experience arising is not separate to anything that appears to be outside of ourselves.

3) How does it feel to see this? Calming to know I am not my thoughts nor am I in control. Thoughts are an illusion. We can function fine without the thoughts.
I notice that there are still thoughts arising that feel as if they are in a struggle, trying to get this, trying to escape personhood, then I recognise that it’s is all thought too and part of the illusion. The illusion is clear but can feel quite solid and real at times. There is no escaping the illusion there is just seeing it in a different light, for what it is. A bunch of thoughts with no substance.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? The realisation that there is no one witnessing. That images are seen and there is no see-er. That all thoughts are an illusion. That thoughts/separate self cannot ‘get this’ because there is nothing to ‘get’ and the separate self doesn’t exist. Otherwise I feel the same.

Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
The fact that there is no witness. I had an idea that awareness was the witness but there is no witness as all. Just awareness as it is. There is no word to describe awareness. Awareness is no-thing - nothing...but also everything.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? We don’t know what makes things happen, they just arise, like life happening. Decisions arise and are made, there is no free will or control, it just feels like it sometimes. But when you look, things just happen by themselves. Intention and choice must be the same, there is no one choosing or no one to have intentions. It is all just happening. What a relief!

How does it work? Not sure how it works, things just arise and happen naturally.
What are you responsible for? Nothing.

Give examples from experience.
I notice my actions when carrying out a task and sometimes I can be getting so carried away with the narrative that I realise I’m not in control, the task is happening without anyone controlling it or making it happen and I’m getting lost in the thinking mind.

6) Anything to add?
I did have expectations that the narrative self would stop or there would be less thoughts about a separate self but I see that this is a longer process of continued self inquiry and who knows the narrative self may never stop but I am more open to allowing whatever is arising as it is. All is welcome. I also thought that I would feel pure love, peace and joy all of the time but this is an illusion as well. I realise this now.

Thank you so much for your guidance Sioned. x


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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:59 am

Hi Becca
Thanks for this
on Q3, I've a few comments/thoughts:
How does it feel to see this?
Calming to know I am not my thoughts nor am I in control.
Is there a Becca that exists separately to the thoughts?
Thoughts are an illusion. We can function fine without the thoughts
Thinking will continue - that's not a problem in itself, just that we over-value it. Do you see what I mean?
I recognise that it’s is all thought too and part of the illusion. The illusion is clear but can feel quite solid and real at times. There is no escaping the illusion there is just seeing it in a different light, for what it is.
When you talk about illusion - I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean: could you explain a bit more?
xx

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:18 pm

Is there a Becca that exists separately to the thoughts?
No I know there is no Becca but it does feel like there is because I am used to thinking in this way and I have to remind myself. However, I do know from direct experience that there is no Becca to be found and this is clear.

Thinking will continue - that's not a problem in itself, just that we over-value it. Do you see what I mean?
Yes, that makes sense, thank you, I think I went the other way and turned against thoughts!! I realise this will continue but I may have had expectations that some thoughts would cease. I.e. thoughts identified with a separate self.

When you talk about illusion - I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean: could you explain a bit more?
When I spoke about the illusion I meant ‘thoughts’ and in-particularly thoughts about a self. I totally recognise that the thoughts aren’t real and have no substance to them, they cannot be controlled, found or held on to. They are not solid objects, just fleeting noises that seem to have meaning.

Thank you x



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Seamist
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Re: Clarity

Postby Seamist » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:48 pm

Thanks, Becca,
That's all really helpful.
It seems like there is a notion of a "thinking mind". What is that? Can it be found in direct experience?
And what is it that can be lost IN the thinking mind?

xx

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Plant31
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Re: Clarity

Postby Plant31 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:29 pm

It seems like there is a notion of a "thinking mind". What is that? Can it be found in direct experience?
Yes, sometimes it feels like there is a separate thinking mind, but I know through inquiry that there is no thinker. I had a horrible couple of hours earlier today where the critical voice became very critical and it felt very real. It took hold for a while and created strong emotion. However, upon looking there is no thinking mind, just thoughts arising in awareness. Thoughts that can create feelings. However, hours later I cannot find the thoughts that were there so strongly earlier and the sadness has gone too.

And what is it that can be lost IN the thinking mind? I’m not sure I know what this question means. Can you re-phrase?

Thanks x


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