The non existent self

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:01 pm

Hi Michael,
Decisions, choices, ordinary actions are claimed / owned and become part of the Kan story. Really it is probably true to say that we end up identified with experience itself. So any experience becomes 'my' experience.
Yes, I see that.

So how do I more consistently be in this "state"/knowing (for lack of better words - it's becoming increasingly difficult to express this in language :))? Is it just about constant inquiry?

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:55 am

HI Kan,

Perhaps you need to really believe what you are seeing? If you are seeing that there is no one there just physiological functioning. A brain making choices etc etc why do you still belief there is the little personal manager running the show?

:-)

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Wed May 01, 2019 3:39 pm

Hi Michael,

Yes that's true - I probably really need to believe it. I think over the next few days I'm going to focus on noticing that thoughts are claiming experience - every time I see it, it's great; but maybe I have to make a practice out of that so it becomes second nature.

Thanks!
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Fri May 03, 2019 11:58 am

Hi Kan,

Yes, noticing / clear seeing is the only way to bring about the shift.

M

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Mon May 06, 2019 7:36 pm

Hi Michael,

I've been spending time noticing the autopilot-ness of existence as well as no choice/control. While I can see it, I'm still not able to fully 'accept/believe' it. Do you think I should do some more exercises perhaps? Or some other approach?

Basically I'm still stuck on the same question as before - how do I consistently see it? It's not very clear to me where I'm stuck or what the barrier is.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Wed May 08, 2019 9:56 pm

Hi Kan,

It is not so much seeing it consistantly it is seeing that there is no self once really clearly so that the illusion drops. Just like when your belief in father xmas dropped. When we watch a batman movie it is the opposite. We don't believe (in ordinary life, like now, that batman exists) but for the duration of the movie we suspend belief.

I saw this the other day from Ilona:

"Is life happening to a tree or as a tree?

Can you see that tree is a form of life? That it’s aliveness that takes a form which we call a tree?

Is life happening to this body or as this body?

Can you see that what we call thoughts, feelings, sensations, situation, people, all are names for a form. And we fixate on labels for forms. But all that is is aliveness showing up as forms.

Is life happening to you or as you?"

:-)

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Sun May 12, 2019 2:09 am

Hi Michael,

I've been unwell so didn't spend much time on this yet. But I see when you say it's not about consistency, rather seeing it very clearly once so the illusion drops. I see now where I need to more work - I am able to see the no self here and there but still not very clearly - there are still some 'gaps'.
"Is life happening to a tree or as a tree?
Can you see that tree is a form of life? That it’s aliveness that takes a form which we call a tree?
The aliveness taking forms is very strong and probably one of these 'gaps'. I want to spend some time on this so will get back in a couple of days.

I'm really happy to be on a quest of finding these 'gaps' as I'm visualizing this a step by step of breaking the illusion :) On that note, how do you know when you have seen clearly? Is that describable in any way?

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Sun May 12, 2019 12:58 pm

Hi Kan,

Sorry to learn that you have been ill.

Are symtoms simply present as a result of physiology / pathology, occurances in a biological system, or are they 'your' symptoms?

I am sure they will have been claimed by now as part of the ongoing Kan story but is that just the usual bullshit?

Can you see how emotions of frustration with the illness, self-pity, or anger are just when the story has been believed to the point when emotions are created?

Otherwise; yes, take your time with questions.

Try and sit in zazen as much as possible. Just present to/with experience just as it is. Not that there is a duality between you and experience but it is difficult to convey in words. Basicaly don't do anything just notice what is occuring without claiming any of it whether it is the sound of birdsong or a rumble in the stomach. Nothing is owned by 'you' it is just happening.

As much of this as you can to drop below thinking.

You will know when you have realised / seen no-self as apart from the relief etc it has a known feeling of irreversability about it. Again like your belief in father christmas. It can't ever come back.

:-)

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Thu May 16, 2019 6:49 am

Hi Michael,
Can you see how emotions of frustration with the illness, self-pity, or anger are just when the story has been believed to the point when emotions are created?
Yes I can see this and I am able to drop these sometimes, more easily with pain or illness or self pity, but very less with anger (work in progress :)). But fundamentally I see that they are just thoughts manifesting into full body beliefs (except for maybe pain, which I feel has lower intensity though once the thought is recognised). Although I was on a boat a couple of days ago and felt very sea sick and tried to see the non existence of the sea sick thought, but failed :)
You will know when you have realised / seen no-self as apart from the relief etc it has a known feeling of irreversability about it. Again like your belief in father christmas. It can't ever come back.
I understand what you mean as I have felt/known that a few times since we started the inquiry, but never completely.

I'm generally more at peace and more aware of the 'I' and the autopilot nature. Unless you think otherwise, I think I want to really spend time with zazen as it seems like the right time now, since I'm now not that much in grips of thought as a few months ago. I can much more easily let go, which is great!

Also, I want to focus on the autopilot-ness, the non existence of 'I' in everything in the world, the aliveness that exists in me, a bird, tree, and daresay a table :)

I'm thinking that maybe I can focus on this over the next 3-4 weeks and reach out if I have any doubts? Unless you feel otherwise, I think I just have to spend time on this and really try see it fully.

Thanks!
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Thu May 16, 2019 1:01 pm

Hi Kan,

Sounds like you are moving forward.

Sure, take all the time you need but why not report back weekly with how things are progressing or otherwise there may just be a gradual drift to nowheresville.

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Fri May 17, 2019 12:44 am

Sounds like a plan :)

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Fri May 24, 2019 4:48 am

Hi Michael,

The week has been going well! I'm progressing in zazen and happy that the chaos of thoughts doesn't affect me much now - instead of feeling frustrated, there is an acceptance of their coming and going.

Also, questioning the 'I' is automatically going hand in hand with every time I get 'I' thoughts. In fact I was recently seeing a video with me in it and it felt a little weird - I was wondering if that's 'me' and I wasn't able to identify with it like in the past.

There's generally a higher level of acceptance of things just going on, however it is. Main hindrances are still with emotions and also a few things that I always was uncomfortable with. For example, I am an 'introvert' but I thought that seeing the true nature of thought, I would have gotten over that and not still trying to avoid conversations with people or being uncomfortable in a group setting etc. Things like introversion is really just thoughts so I shouldn't be getting affected by it. So I want to spend time on these kinds of things and do inquiry.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Fri May 24, 2019 3:23 pm

Kan,
The week has been going well! I'm progressing in zazen and happy that the chaos of thoughts doesn't affect me much now - instead of feeling frustrated, there is an acceptance of their coming and going.
Great. Nice to read this. Let go of expectations around meditation. Best to regard it as just Being. Noticing.
I was recently seeing a video with me in it and it felt a little weird - I was wondering if that's 'me' and I wasn't able to identify with it like in the past.

Interesting. Was it like watching any other character in the play / movie?

There's generally a higher level of acceptance of things just going on, however it is.
Again this sounds good as if you are not claiming experience as 'yours' as strongly as previously.

Remember that preferences persist all along the path. If you are an introvert now and you become fully enlightened you will still prefer silence, solitude, no, or small numbers of people etc. Someone gregarious and extroverted will still keep that tendency.

Remember it only takes one clear seeing that there is no separate self and you are free....

Best wishes,

Kevin

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Mon May 27, 2019 1:08 am

Hi Michael,
Was it like watching any other character in the play / movie?
It wasn't quite like that, but it was kind of a surprise that that person was 'me' - it felt a little strange to call that me when the concept of 'me' is not that strong anymore.
Remember that preferences persist all along the path. If you are an introvert now and you become fully enlightened you will still prefer silence, solitude, no, or small numbers of people etc. Someone gregarious and extroverted will still keep that tendency.
That makes sense, but perhaps the social anxiety or stress I feel will probably start going down - I do think it's become less already.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Mon May 27, 2019 9:47 am

Hi Kan,

All great but remember this is not a developmental or incremental situation, like for example learning to drive and getting better at it. You are sufferring less as you learn not to buy into destructive thought patterns and as your mind explores your reactions and psychology you are adjusting to life which is all valuable and as I said eases suffering but remember the key focus is to see through an illusion.

You don't believe in father xmas less do you? You have clearly seen it was an illusion, entirely mind created. It is the same now. You need to see that your mind is like an interpretation / meaning fountain. It creates meaning by the stories it creates. The central one is the Kan story whereby you take centre stage in the movie of life. So you are no doubt quite adept at seeing stories as they are created (or mostly just after) so if you can see their story like nature why still believe it?

Why really believe the content of thought?

So If I say now think about an elephant you can can't you. One sort of appears in your mind (there is one in my mind even as I think of the next words and type them). However it is not a real elephant! It is an idea of one, an image.

Empty of elephant!!

It is the same with the idea of Kan. The Kan story. All the reactions you have, likes, dislikes, preferances etc are formed into your self image. You don't like lots of noise and large crowds, feel shy in gatherings and meeting new people so it is concluded that you are an introvert.

On the Kan character goes identified with the self view that it is an introvent.

Can you see it is just believing in the thoughts and creating a story?

Keep looking you are doing well but remain very clear that you are trying to see through something. Like when you watch politicians speak. I'm sure you believed them once but now when you watch them on TV I'm sure you see right through them.

Michael


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