Please guide me

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:47 pm

let's look deeper in to body,
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an insde or an outisde? If there is an inside - the insde of what exactly? If there is an outsde - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last queston. Take your time, don’t rush.
You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washng hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:08 pm

Oh dear. As I was looking and holding these questions in mind, I suddenly realized that all there is are sensations - be it the visual field, body feelings, pressure, hearing, thoughts - this is all there is! And then there was a sense of deep unity with reality, no boundaries dividing my body and the rest of the world. It was quite powerful.

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

If I sit with my eyes closed and look, there are feelings and sense of location of different parts of the body, feeling of pressure when sitting, feelings of air coming through the nostrils. So I can feel where approximately my feet are, and where is my head, and by feeling the difference I can get a feeling of my body's height. But the weight cannot be felt directly - only pressure from touch. And, if I close my eyes, I can feel the feelings throughout the body, but they are kind of blurry. It's like an ocean of feelings.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

I can feel the clothing touching the body, and the body's pressure on the chair, but I cannot get a sensation of a boundary between them. I can imagine it, but cannot feel it directly.

Is there an insde or an outisde? If there is an inside - the insde of what exactly? If there is an outsde - the outside of what exactly?

Intuitively, a thought came up: "There is an inside of the skin, and outside of the skin." I can get a feeling of location outside the skin, or of a location inside the skin. And this is nothing more than a feeling of location. Also, there is a sense of location tied to certain feelings like touching, seeing, or hearing. So, if I have a pain inside my stomach, I can say that it is inside my skin.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It refers to a set of sensations, like seeing its shape, feeling its location, feeling its touch, touching it, feeling pain or pleasure. For myself, the actual experience of my body is like a cloud of feelings, with locations attached.

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:45 pm

Oh dear. As I was looking and holding these questions in mind, I suddenly realized that all there is are sensations - be it the visual field, body feelings, pressure, hearing, thoughts - this is all there is! And then there was a sense of deep unity with reality, no boundaries dividing my body and the rest of the world. It was quite powerful.

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

If I sit with my eyes closed and look, there are feelings and sense of location of different parts of the body, feeling of pressure when sitting, feelings of air coming through the nostrils. So I can feel where approximately my feet are, and where is my head, and by feeling the difference I can get a feeling of my body's height. But the weight cannot be felt directly - only pressure from touch. And, if I close my eyes, I can feel the feelings throughout the body, but they are kind of blurry. It's like an ocean of feelings.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

I can feel the clothing touching the body, and the body's pressure on the chair, but I cannot get a sensation of a boundary between them. I can imagine it, but cannot feel it directly.

Is there an insde or an outisde? If there is an inside - the insde of what exactly? If there is an outsde - the outside of what exactly?

Intuitively, a thought came up: "There is an inside of the skin, and outside of the skin." I can get a feeling of location outside the skin, or of a location inside the skin. And this is nothing more than a feeling of location. Also, there is a sense of location tied to certain feelings like touching, seeing, or hearing. So, if I have a pain inside my stomach, I can say that it is inside my skin.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It refers to a set of sensations, like seeing its shape, feeling its location, feeling its touch, touching it, feeling pain or pleasure. For myself, the actual experience of my body is like a cloud of feelings, with locations attached.
Thank you very much for your answers Vlad..
So can you please tell me what is the actual experience of a location ? an inside ? an outside ?
If there is no thought labelling sensations is it possible to talk about a location ? an inside ? an outside ?
so what is a location ? what is an inside ? what is an outside ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:48 pm

Also what is the actual experience of distant planets, space, yesterday, tomorrow, history ?
Even what is the actual experience of the other room ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:17 am

Everything okay Vlad ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:53 pm

Everything okay Vlad ?

Yes, Adil, sorry I didn't write yesterday.

So can you please tell me what is the actual experience of a location ? an inside ? an outside ?

For an inside and outside to make sense, there has to a boundary. And boundaries, like objects and sense of location, are like a mind's augmentation of reality - they are superimposed on the visual field by the mind. So, location, inside and outside - like boundaries and objects - are really mind's concepts!

If there is no thought labelling sensations is it possible to talk about a location ? an inside ? an outside ?

Well, the process of talking about something involves labeling it - so no, it's not.

so what is a location ? what is an inside ? what is an outside ?

They are mind's concepts.

Also what is the actual experience of distant planets, space, yesterday, tomorrow, history ?
Even what is the actual experience of the other room ?

It is conceptual. I have a concept of these things, but not direct experience.

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:51 pm

Everything okay Vlad ?

Yes, Adil, sorry I didn't write yesterday.

So can you please tell me what is the actual experience of a location ? an inside ? an outside ?

For an inside and outside to make sense, there has to a boundary. And boundaries, like objects and sense of location, are like a mind's augmentation of reality - they are superimposed on the visual field by the mind. So, location, inside and outside - like boundaries and objects - are really mind's concepts!

If there is no thought labelling sensations is it possible to talk about a location ? an inside ? an outside ?

Well, the process of talking about something involves labeling it - so no, it's not.

so what is a location ? what is an inside ? what is an outside ?

They are mind's concepts.

Also what is the actual experience of distant planets, space, yesterday, tomorrow, history ?
Even what is the actual experience of the other room ?

It is conceptual. I have a concept of these things, but not direct experience.
thank you for your answers Vlad.
Very good looking.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:55 pm

Yes concepts are also simply thought
Let's look at how thoughts work,
Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focusses on whatever happens in the moment.
Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"...
Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?
Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?
Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..? Or they pop up themselves ?

Simply sit for 10min or so and observe. Note what you find.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:54 pm

Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?

It simply happened, and there is no one controlling coming back to present moment.

Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?

No, and thoughts are similar to other sensations in this sense - they just happen.

Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..? Or they pop up themselves ?

Yes, this is indeed a constant flow, change and movent. My sense of being in control slowly diminishes.

Waiting for your reply :)

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:56 pm

Thank you for your answers Vlad.
Ok then..
What is your current feeling ?
Do you still feel as a an "i" looking back from those eyes ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:19 pm

What is your current feeling ?
Do you still feel as a an "i" looking back from those eyes ?

This used to be a background feeling - like I am looking from my eyes - but I've found that it is not there anymore. Most of the time, I'm in a sort of flow, especially when meditating. I could feel this when I try (it creates some discomfort), but immediately after that return to the new normal state. It's different than it used to be, but I feel that there is still a lot room for deepening this state of flow.

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:56 am

What is your current feeling ?
Do you still feel as a an "i" looking back from those eyes ?

This used to be a background feeling - like I am looking from my eyes - but I've found that it is not there anymore. Most of the time, I'm in a sort of flow, especially when meditating. I could feel this when I try (it creates some discomfort), but immediately after that return to the new normal state. It's different than it used to be, but I feel that there is still a lot room for deepening this state of flow.
ok. That's good.
I see that you have seen that there is no separate self in the earlier stages of our conversation.
i think that you are ready for final questions..
Let's clear 1-2 remaining fields and go to final questions.
Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:02 am

Finally let's look at the idea of "others"..

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts. Is there a difference in these these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?


Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference? Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:58 pm

Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:22 am

ok. That's good.
I see that you have seen that there is no separate self in the earlier stages of our conversation.
i think that you are ready for final questions..
Let's clear 1-2 remaining fields and go to final questions.

Okay, sure :)

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts. Is there a difference in these these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?


It's similar to bringing up thoughts "apple" and "orange". These are thoughts, with different content. I have more associated thoughts with the thought of a friend than of a stranger, and more emotional attachment. But fundamentally these are very similar - in a sense that they are thoughts about people.


Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference? Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?

These are very similar, too. And there is nothing special about "me-character" thoughts - they are just thoughts, not tied to my body or psyche.

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:13 pm

ok. That's good.
I see that you have seen that there is no separate self in the earlier stages of our conversation.
i think that you are ready for final questions..
Let's clear 1-2 remaining fields and go to final questions.

Okay, sure :)

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts. Is there a difference in these these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?


It's similar to bringing up thoughts "apple" and "orange". These are thoughts, with different content. I have more associated thoughts with the thought of a friend than of a stranger, and more emotional attachment. But fundamentally these are very similar - in a sense that they are thoughts about people.


Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference? Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?

These are very similar, too. And there is nothing special about "me-character" thoughts - they are just thoughts, not tied to my body or psyche.
Thank you for your answers Vlad.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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