Awareness of no self

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Lenij
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:31 am

Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:34 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is fundamentally no self. What we think we are is a construction or our mind which is compelled to compare and contrast and believe that it is separate from that which it sees. The experience of no-self cannot be attained in or generated by the mind. It is uncovered in experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help with self inquiry from someone who abides in non-dual awareness. I am also interested in working in pairs with others interested in self-inquiry. I have experienced a falling away of mental constructs, mind chatter, fear and would like to stabilize in that way of being.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I wish to have a direct experience of myself as no self. I want to work with someone who is stabilized in non-dual awareness who is intuitive and can provide energetic transmission as well as pointers- someone who asks good questions . No religious dogma!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am a graduate of the Finders Course, so have some recent experience with various kinds of meditation and practices. I practiced TM for 18-20 years but let my practice lapse about 17 years ago. I don't have a history of spiritual seeking and am more of an explorer than a seeker. I am agnostic and come from no religious background or training- I tend to dislike organized religion. I didn't have a much in the way of built up beliefs about enlightenment or what seeing one's essential self is about- I never really pondered the idea much. I worked in the psychological realm mostly, trying to solve problems and just assuming I would get "there" eventually. I had a sense of what is possible because I saw it in someone else ( who saw it in me) and I understood intuitively that it would be a good place to be. I have extensive training in Neuro Linguistic Programming and some hypnosis. I understand how humans create and maintain their structures of belief and understand the limitations the mind has in understanding what we experience. I have had some non-dual experience.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:50 am

Hello Lenji,

Thanks for your writing, and welcome to LU! My name's Wesley and if it's okay with you, I can be your guide. I'm not sure if I abide in nondual awareness or not ;D, but I can help you to look and see what the self is and what it isn't. I live in the United States and am on Pacific Time.

To make this easier I would suggest that for the time that we engage in this dialogue, you temporarily set aside other books/teachings/videos and just stick to what your own experience. Nothing special required, just stick to what you can see/hear/smell/taste/touch. Also, for the sake of keeping up momentum, please try and post every day and if stuff comes up you can just let me know you can't post.

To be sure what LU is, and what LU is not, you can check this out: https://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041. You may find that a big part of this is expectations. Here is how to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If all this sounds good to you so far, then we can start.
-What do you think seeing through the illusion of self will be like?
-What in your life will change?
-What won't change?
-Is anything missing right now?
-What is LOOKING? Could you describe what looking is?

I look forward to our conversation!
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Lenij
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:14 am

Hi Wesley,
I am wondering if I should embark upon the inquiry this week. In another 4 days I am headed to a Headless Way workshop, which is a teaching. Perhaps it's best if I take up the posts again when I return around the 4th of July. That way I can make the space for it. Will this work for you? Meanwhile I can answer your questions if you like. Just let me know.- Lenij

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:19 am

Hi Lenji,
I am wondering if I should embark upon the inquiry this week. In another 4 days I am headed to a Headless Way workshop, which is a teaching. Perhaps it's best if I take up the posts again when I return around the 4th of July. That way I can make the space for it. Will this work for you? Meanwhile I can answer your questions if you like. Just let me know.- Lenij
Sure, whatever feels right to you. Is that Richard Lang? Sounds familiar...Anyways, that's okay for me. I will wait for a response, when you're ready to start go ahead and pick up from my last response.

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Lenij
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:19 am

Okay, I will pick up again when I am back from Richard Lang's workshop. 'Til then- Lenij

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:21 am

Great, enjoy it!

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:08 am

Hi Lenji,

I forgot that I am going to be on vacation in Alaska until Thursday the 6th next week, I may or may not be able to respond but I will get back to your post as quickly as I can.

Thanks,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Lenij
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:01 am

HI Wesley,
Its been a while, but I am back.
Lenij

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:14 am

Hi Lenji,

Good to have you back! Have a good retreat?

Would you like to pick up from my first response, or do you think we should have a fresh start? If you'd like to begin with my first reply then of course go ahead and answer those questions and we'll go from there.

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Lenij
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:56 am

-Hi Wesley

Back at last!

What do you think seeing through the illusion of self will be like?
Peaceful, lack of/dramatic reduction in internal dialogue, lack of judgement and fear and at the same time quite ordinary.

-What in your life will change?
Will act more in accordance with present moment "what is" rather than my perception of what things mean. My external circumstances could change, as well as relationships- a kind of shedding of what doesn't fit.

-What won't change?
My basic personality. A lot of my more personal preferences.

-Is anything missing right now?
Yes and no. I have an underlying sense of well being, but I have tasted non-duality and would prefer to be living daily as what I experienced.

-What is LOOKING? Could you describe what looking is?
Don't know- the question is too general for me. The best I could do is describe looking as being aware.

Lenji

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:42 am

Hi Lenji,
Back at last!
Nice to hear! Are you sure about proceeding further? It seems you are a little unsure of this?

Thank you for your answers. Expectations can play a big role in this inquiry in that you could overlook what's real and what you see because you're expecting it to be a different way. And so it can be good to address them before beginning.
Will act more in accordance with present moment "what is" rather than my perception of what things mean. My external circumstances could change, as well as relationships- a kind of shedding of what doesn't fit.
This very well could happen, or not. Seeing through the illusion of a separate me doesn't mean you will necessarily accept what is.
Don't know- the question is too general for me. The best I could do is describe looking as being aware.
Okay let me put this in a different way. What is the difference between looking (at something) and thinking (of something)?

If I ask you to look for your shoe, how do you do that?

If I ask you to look for I, how do you do that?

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Lenij
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:15 am

Hi Wesley,

I am a little unsure of it and also have been doing other kinds of inner work.

If you ask me to look for my shoe I first focus my eyes where the shoe is. If it's not there on my foot, and I go looking elsewhere. When it's on my foot I am aware of it and may not need to look, I'm just aware that it is there by how my foot feels.

Looking for I, is different, more dependent on what is doing the seeing. I have a mental constructs about I- thoughts , ideas, beliefs, opinions. That is which is pretty much the "I" that I operate from and am most aware of. I have been aware of "seeing" without those constructs, but isn't something (or no thing !) that I can just conjure up.

You mentioned that I might not accept what is. That may already be what is happening. Perhaps all of my brain/ egoic self was not on board when things temporarily shifted. I have never been what I would call a serious seeker until the Finder's Course. I never bought into what I viewed as TM's hype, I practiced it for 18 or 19 years because I felt better and less stressed when I did. I didn't have a whole lot of idea about what enlightenment might be like but somewhere along the line in therapy I got idea that I could live in a state where anxiety no longer had a hold on me. I was not familiar with the concept of duality/ non-duality until during the Finder's Course.

Lenji

P.S. I kinda like the Lenji thing :)

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:34 am

Hi Lenji,
Looking for I, is different, more dependent on what is doing the seeing.
How do you know that something is doing the seeing?

Looking for your shoe is the same for looking for I. If it's going to be found, it's going to be found here and now. Is there somewhere else it could be? Thoughts will forever tell you a self is here somewhere, but the point is to actually look for that supposed self. Check the thought's references so to speak ;).
You mentioned that I might not accept what is. That may already be what is happening. Perhaps all of my brain/ egoic self was not on board when things temporarily shifted. I have never been what I would call a serious seeker until the Finder's Course. I never bought into what I viewed as TM's hype, I practiced it for 18 or 19 years because I felt better and less stressed when I did. I didn't have a whole lot of idea about what enlightenment might be like but somewhere along the line in therapy I got idea that I could live in a state where anxiety no longer had a hold on me. I was not familiar with the concept of duality/ non-duality until during the Finder's Course.
I see. Well certainly whatever makes you feel better, less stressed, less anxious is a good thing! And living without anxiety gripping you is absolutely possible. The self is a thought, and to see through the illusion of a self we have to look into identification with thoughts - taking thoughts to be real. Anxiety also has to do with thoughts, often the imagining and worrying of what's happening or what we think will happen. When you no longer believe these thoughts because it's seen they aren't real, it's very common for anxiety to fade. But that won't be the focus of the inquiry, it all sort of rests on this assumption that there is a me at the center that is doing/feeling/experiencing/thinking.

So, where does Lenji exist? Is Lenji (or your name) the same thing as I and me?

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Lenij
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby Lenij » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:24 am

Leniji /Lenij is a concept , conditioned by thought and years of being mirrored as exist separately. I am less attached to some of it than I used to be, but it is still the same thing. I am know that I am not separate intellectually, but the thoughts and feelings still often seem real to me. I know I exist because am aware, but something happens even before I think about it.

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WesleySPK
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Re: Awareness of no self

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:58 pm

Hi Lenij,

My gosh I never realized I was mispelling your name! So that's what you meant at the end of your last post. Well let me know if you want me to change to Lenji :).

Right, Lenij/Lenji is a concept. But where is it? Where do you feel that "I" exists?

A concept is a thought. We assume that it's "I" that's doing, controlling, thinking, and feeling. So:

Can a thought think?
Can a thought make decisions?
Can a thought feel?
Can a thought control reality?
I know I exist because am aware, but something happens even before I think about it.
Where is the "I" that exists and that is aware? Sure, there is awareness. You need simple look around at your surroundings to confirm awareness is happening. But that there is someone who is aware is an assumption. So where is that I? Can you see/hear/smell/taste/touch it?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei


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